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That guy you quoted keeps saying the Spurs are playing chess while everyone else keeps playing checkers so you know what type of sniffer you're dealing with
As far as I know, he'd bring in speakers rather than giving lectures.
That guy you quoted keeps saying the Spurs are playing chess while everyone else keeps playing checkers so you know what type of sniffer you're dealing with
No, we absolutely do not have to get this idea out of the way. I did not label Wemby a Generational Talent, the rest of the basketball world did. Durant may have turned out to be one of the best players of our generation, but he was not labelled a Generational Talent coming into the NBA, and that's what we are talking about. You can't simply change the comparison to "Good players who team's weren't better after they were drafted" because that's not what we are talking about. Call it "Generational Prospect" or something else if that helps you - but the fact is that all the other players with this level of hype coming into the league all made their teams better, and Wemby's is significantly worse. This is just a simple, undeniable fact.
Now, in terms of what that fact means, I think there a few potential explanations:
- Wemby isn't worthy of being labelled a Generational Prospect
- The franchise has utterly failed at surrounding the talent with a suitable team
- The coaching is so inept that not even the Generational Prospect can overcome it
I don't believe option 1, and we literally have threads debating whether it's #2 or #3.
There have been plenty of examples of prospects emerging later in the draft process particularly when you consider the international players. Just because you cannot see a prospect you like doesn't mean much.
The guy’s expiring who the Spurs could trade at deadline. And at what cost? 7.5 mil a year??
We spent the whole DJ era saying we didn't want to be fans of a treadmill team
It was contention or tank for talent. No in between.
Now we got the main piece to build around, that is the hardest part and we got it and he looks legit.
From there it's only a matter of time and a few more lucky turns of fate and we are locked in with young affordable talent and future flexibility in space and draft capital to really control our destiny. Much better to be in position to potentially run a multi le dynasty instead of blowing our load like some 2 pump chump for one ring at best before contention window slams shut because you fools can't handle some foreplay first.
Ask yourself: does adding a star to rookie wemby plus a tank roster get you a ring? WCF? Let's hear who thinks it does? How does say Dame or the equivalent make rookie wemby able to play more than 6-8 mins before critical fatigue starts creating mistakes? Dame won't make wemby know to not bite on fakes, or what natural position he's best at, etc. These things take time and imagine paying a premium for Dame just to waste it on rookie mistakes, pissing Dame off and now we have a malcontent who will be make 60MM, yes 60 as in basically half the whole cap on a guy who aged past our timeline.
Also that assumes say a Dame Lillard even AGREED to join SA. This isnt 2k. You don't just push X and buy the name. It's real life. Dame or the equivalent has to WANT to play in SA. His agent has to CONCUR that such a move is good for them.
Dame is reaching the end of his elite timeline. He wants a ring and joined Bucks as a pretty good shot at that hope. If he wanted to carry scrubs and rookies he would've just stayed in POR. Same goes for other names.
We also just got done dumping vets because they were hogging mins from our developing youth. Now you guys want vets? What is say Malcolm B. going to do for us but push young players to the bench and give us just enough wins to toil in mediocrity and cost us draft odds at a top pick.
Which, you say 2024 draft is weak, well then better lose even more games then right? Because a weak draft is done offering impact level prospects after possibly just 3 picks then SA better be top 3 I'd say. Then consider the Pistons historically bad season and that probably explains Spurs losing streak since it's an arms race to the bottom with the likes of DET, a team plummeting at a historic rate.
Plus you have the TOR pick protected through 6 so SA better occupy one of those top 5 spots to help push TOR into a range that conveys their pick to SA.
You guys all said 2-3 seasons from rookie wemby to contention
It's not even 0.5 seasons in, currently
/thread
What do you think this paragraph does for you? Do you think saying "b-but Wemby was hyped up to be more" means that teams can't lose more games. Like we can have a semantic discussion on the term, but either it's going to be so small that the sample size doesn't mean anything or it's going to be big enough to find counter examples.
How do you think that's a legit description? How is it not "The hype is unrealistic, especially in terms of immediate impact"? Wemby can be the future GOAT but still start off needing to grow into himself You literally just talked about Durant being a generational player despite not being immediately identifiable as such by your standards.Now, in terms of what that fact means, I think there a few potential explanations:
- Wemby isn't worthy of being labelled a Generational Prospect
We know you don't believe in option 1, either the way you wrote it or the way I did. That's just player-fandom written in another form. It's exactly what I've been criticizing. The dude is a teenager trying to overcome biomechanical challenges who has to deal with people like you saying he can't have a good season unless he's improving his team.I don't believe option 1, and we literally have threads debating whether it's #2 or #3.
Forget the hype. He's not a draft pick nor a trade prospect. He's on the team. Develop him based on what he needs to do to get better. Stop trying to compare him to what is apparently an extremely small list of previous players to determine if he's being "failed" or not.
Chinook those sonics are a terrible example since yes they added durant but simultaneously lost ray allen and rashard lewis, their two best players, in that same offseason
the spurs lost KBD
nobody
literally nobody who is upset at PATFO right now, is suggesting that the spurs should be a contending team right now
Huh wonder what happened yesterday afternoon that could have gotten you worked up.
Into 1160 words of not "debating this kind of minutia"Robinson might have not "felt" ready, but he was physically mature and was able to do what was needed of him from his first game. It doesn't matter if he needed to be coached or not. He wasn't running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It's like how Tim thought he sucked in his first SL game even though he was actually pretty good.
Whether Brown taught him how to play basketball or not is pointless, because he knew how to play from his very first game. That doesn't mean that he was a post-up specialist from his first game. There were probably a lot of nuances that took years to pick up. That's not what determines if a player is "ready to be fed". Maybe David knew from Navy how to stand at the dunker spot and when to move to get the ball. Maybe it was taught to him during the off-season by Brown. Maybe it was instinctual. That's not a distinction that matters. What matters is that he, even as a first-overall pick phenom who was going to a struggling franchise, fit into an offense and played off others rather than constantly calling for the ball and turning it over trying to do too much.
The whole conversation about Robinson has been twisted in an attempt to disagree with whatever I said. The rawer Robinson was, the more it proves the point I was making, which is that treating Wemby the way he is being treated, rather than reigning him in and giving him structure, is hurting him, and that deferring to him like he's a star in his prime doesn't make sense. Robinson came up as an example of the Spurs supposedly forcing the ball to. My reply to that was that Robinson was much more refined in his ability to fit on an NBA court and understood better how to get points. You jumped in to say, "You're a liar, Robinson felt like he didn't know how to play basketball until Larry taught him." But all that shows is how much more perspective Robinson has. Even a David who "didn't know how to play basketball" still knew how to play in the NBA more than Wemby does now. As I said before, that's actually reasonable given their age difference and the more complex league Victor is trying to learn.
These paragraphs I guess show you don't actually read the posts you respond to? I've been a huge proponent in the Spurs running plays for Wemby this whole season. I don't think it's a stretch to say I'm the single most vociferous poster when it comes to that. But running plays is a two-way street. Wemby has to actually do his part in those plays, and far too often he breaks plays off trying to get open. We've talked about Victor constantly slipping screens and running to the paint while calling for the ball rather than doing is job and getting the ball-handler open. Yes, some of those plays are going to result in other players scoring, but if he learns to do his job, the defense will actually get put into conflict, which will result in much easier looks for him. It's like that play where Sochan didn't make a hard pass to Wemby and instead kicked it out to Osman, and Cedi drove, pulled Wemby's man and dished it to Victor for an easy look. Those are the kinds of looks he should be getting, but instead he's running around making bad seals and calling for the ball while three or four defenders are standing there waiting.
Vassell can get his own shot. No, Devin doesn't actually get more FGA than Victor, and Wemby's USG% dwarfs everyone else's. But even if that were the case, it's easier and often times more necessary for him to take those shots. Victor can't even dribble against an engaged defense. He needs to be set up, which for all the reasons I've been talking about, isn't happening right now. Victor is playing center right now and doesn't have an NBA-level skill-set for the position. There's a lot of critical development that he needs to have that goes beyond scoring. The reality though is that a lot of player's efforts are directly tied to their scoring attempts, so the Spurs are going to have to take a balanced approached. They aren't doing that now.
This ain't it, man. No, I'm not a player-fan of everyone else on the team. That's just trying to rubber-glue your way out of the situation. You're seeing this as a "sides" thing and assuming that I'm being anti-Wemby and that being anti-Wemby makes a person pro-Wemby's enemies. It's ridiculous.
Yes. Everyone would be helped by the team functioning well, which would be much easier if they had a coach who was interested in actually coaching.
Why would they run their offense through a player who doesn't know how to play NBA offense? Why not let him learn while not being the focal point? David didn't lead his team in touches as a rookie. It's not because he "didn't know how to play" either. Dude was amazing as a rookie, like OMFG amazing like legit probably the best rookie season ever good. But the Spurs still didn't run the offense through him. David went on to be a man that basically did everything for his team and at his peak absolutely dominated the ball. That was him at his peak as 28-year-old. The gap between what Robinson was and what Wemby is lightyears long. , Wemby can grow into a superstar and still not be as good a prime David was. Dude was just unreal.
You keep waffling between being insulted that I suggested some fans would be happy with Wemby taking an obscene number of shots and acting like I'm silly for not wanting that. It's lame, man. The only way you can try to make your point is to compare Wemby to guys who are much better than him right now and who are much further along in their careers. It's indicative of the player-fandom that's clouding your judgement. It's like how you thought it was silly that Haliburton is getting superstar touches or how in this post you suggested that Wemby is anywhere near rookie Robinson (who in case you didn't know was better than rookie Duncan, not worse). You're subs uting what you want him to be with what he is, and when you run into situations where the reality has limitations, you look for reasons to blame others players. Dude is 19, and he does need help. He needs structure and instruction. He doesn't need more touches or for everyone to pass him the ball in any situation.
Dude needs to be coached like an elite prospect and not catered to like an established superstar. I know the difference between those things, but I don't think you do.
Reaves balked and chose the lakers....all the other players you mentioned would have made the Spurs a .500 team at best and then you'd be ing about how this mid team is killing our draft position....bottom line you guys are insufferable and about winning or losing...I've been here long enough to see what spurfan is bruddah...nice try
Don’t forget LandaleChinook those sonics are a terrible example since yes they added durant but simultaneously lost ray allen and rashard lewis, their two best players, in that same offseason
the spurs lost KBD
Detroit has drafted the #7 pick, #1 pick, #5 pick, #5 pick,,,,all lottery,,,,in the last 4 years,,,,so tell me again how tanking works. Detroit crushes your whole theory of tanking.
you tank until you get the talent needed to build a team
we lucked into the fact that we only had to go tank mode for 1 year and landed ing wemby. that doesnt mean we have to pull a 180, trade all our draft picks and try to assemble a team to compete for the championship right away. but its time to start seeing development and improvement of players. see a cohesive scheme and iden y come together.
even if you just want to "see what we have" its inexcusable that "what we have" is performing worse than last year despite adding wemby. wemby, while by no means a finished product, still has a positive on/off, so you cant argue that even this unfinished version of him is making the team worse
and that falls on the coaching
and on the micro level, the defense either means the coaching is culpable for teaching a dreadful scheme, or the coaching is culpable for being at holding players accountable, especially when the same coach used to pull actual good players like green/white for any minor mistake
the not playing a PG thing is outright malpractice and is sabotaging the team
BB mentioned this earlier and I tend to agree with them. Sochan, Vassell, and Johnson have taken a step back. We need to be able to partner Wemby at least with an all star and we at best have a bunch of role players.
Ugh tanking for a 14% chance at Nikola Topic when you already have the best prospect since LeBron.
it only looks that way because they're less than wemby...we had no one better on the team to compare them...and no all star is coming to SA...how many came when we had the big 3...the only way this team is getting another all star is by drafting and developing one
it's not about drafting one particular player...its about drafting guys with actual talent..something you can get with a higher draft pick and something this team sorely needs
I don't see any of them as two way players. Vassell is closest but he came out the gate looking like poo.
We’re not going to be able to have a conversation if you think Wemby doesn’t project to be the top player in the league in a manner of years. Yes, I agree he is raw, has flaws, is not fully actualized, etc. That’s why I said that I could stipulate to all of his faults. Much of your response starts with the premise that, because Wemby isn’t fully realized yet, much of what has been going on with the team is fine. That’s absurd. It’s reckless to the point of malpractice to throw a season away simply because your rookie isn’t fully developed. Players with his physical profile typically don’t have 20 year careers. The team lost 17 on a row and is currently on another 5 game skid. That has psychological impacts on the players, helps develop bad habits, and is a sure fire way to show Wemby that the team is rudderless. Development would be a silver lining to the losing cloud, but most of the players on the team will likely be gone in the next few years (or at least should be) - and - what we’ve seen are not players worth developing in the first place. There are real problems here, so focusing on Wembys current progression is a hand-waver non-sequittur.
Fixating on where Wemby is now in his career is literally besides the point. He’s a rookie, not a finished product. I didn’t even think that needed to be said. What we’re discussing is the teams efforts, or lack thereof, in helping Wemby become the player he projects to be. And from the development perspective - which is maybe the most significant one - there is no straight faced way to say this year has been a success.
Also, cherry picking Durant doesn’t make the point you want it to. Durant was the consensus #2 pick, and was projected to be elite, but not generational. There is a long list of generational talents that made an immediate impact. But more to the point, the issue isn’t Wemby’s immediate impact on the team - it’s the team’s moves to surround Wemby.
This literally is semantics. He projects, as in, much has to happen for him to reach his projections.
If you think that Wemby isn’t a franchise player, then this conversation is over because I literally don’t know what to say. The team absolutely should, and must, treat him like the franchise player he is. This isn’t a Kawhi situation, so that comparison is irrelevant.
I agree, and, it’s problematic that we’re in this position to begin with.
Again, if you think losing is fine, there’s not much more I can say. The point of the game is to win. Consistently and historically losing is never fine. He’s an elite compe or - consistent losing takes a psychological toll, both on him and the team. Bad habits are forming.
As for who gives a - likely Wemby. No one is going to have warm fuzzies coming in to a losing situation that lacks a clear direction on how to improve or is actually taking steps to improve. You make it seem like it’s just “tough ties that you didn’t get RoY,” but the problem is much worse. We are not talking about a couple games where he doesn’t get his numbers - we’re talking about a team that literally has 4 wins and 20 something losses, is on track to win less than 12 games, has no vets, has piss poor defense, and on and on. You ask who gives a - Wemby certainly does and the franchise absolutely should.
Occam’s razor. Much of what you say (not getting the ball in the right spots, not getting the ball enough, etc) points to frustration with the quality of play of his teammates. He doesn’t pass the ball to himself. This laundry list reeks of the lady protesting too much.
Just saying Wemby is having a successful year doesn’t make it so. His year is inextricable from the teams. Their success has a direct impact on his. More to the point, the various coaching and personnel issues that have been highlighted in this thread go to show serious developmental gaps. Wemby should be playing with a competent ball handler, he should be playing with a big who can secure a rebound, and should be playing in a defensive scheme that does not chronically leave three point shooters open. Those gaps have a direct, negative affect on his year, and his development.
Much of this is what posters have been saying in this thread, so mostly agreed.
Appreciate the pop psychology, but maybe, just maybe, you’re thinking this isn’t a big deal is, like, your opinion man. But this part reads like revisionist history, in part, and utter mediocrity, in other part. The spurs are not Orlando, or NOLA, or Charlotte. There’s a pedigree here - how do you think “the culture” came about in the first place. That other franchises ed up their relationships with their players doesn’t somehow excuse or justify it here.
Again, I get that you think Wemby isn’t the best player in the league as we sit here today. No one has said as much. The point here is whether the team is taking all the required steps in the right direction. In many ways that you agree, it has not. If you don’t think that’s problematic, especially given recent history, mazol tov. But to up this badly, with many unforced errors, is and should be concerning to any reasonable observer.
I don’t have a crystal ball, and I hope to god I’m wrong about literally everything I’ve said. I’d gladly take that. But saying everything is fine because Wemby isn’t god yet is really really myopic and frankly inane.
If that top 5 pick busts you have wasted a year of development for your franchise guy for absolutely nothing, and tons of top 5 picks bust: Bagley, Wiseman, Patrick Williams, Josh Jackson, Bender, Dunn, etc. You don't have to throw your season to get a good draft pick. I wouldn't want them to tank if both Flagg and Boozer were in this draft class much less this grab bag the 24 draft class looks like. Tanking is for when you have nothing and are desperate to land a cornerstone. The Spurs have that cornerstone.
Astonishing amount of copium and sniffing here. Funny that you mention Donovan Mitc teams get predictable in the playoffs, where we have only ever seen Jeremy Sochan teams be literally the 3rd worst and 2nd worst team in basketball.
This is actually like a picture perfect textbook sniffer post.
"Let me explain to you how this incredibly stupid thing that we all watched play out with our own eyes and failed so spectacularly that we could legit only win 3 games doing it is actually a really smart move and something we shouldn't abandon yet, and one of the main reasons we don't want to abandon it is because we don't want to be stuck doing nothing but making the playoffs every year like teams that have Donovan Mitc do"
We need a sniffer of the year and a sniff of the year award. I'd easily nominate your post for the latter
*slurp* *slurp* *slurp*
These things matter beyond just semantic conversations because people are humans with feelings and there are media outlets who make a living pointing these things out, and you can be rest assured Wemby WILL be reminded that he's the only Generational Talent who failed to make his team better, and everyone will come to the same conclusions I have - that this isn't really a Wemby problem, this is a Spurs management problem, which will fuel the fire of pulling him out of SA.
Is this a hangover from the Kawhi trauma? Maybe. But whether its an overreaction or not, it is in the best interest of the Spurs to treat Wemby properly, and lighting his rookie season on fire, as it has been so eloquently stated, is not the way to do it. I'd be fine being 20-62 this season with some progress shown. He'll, I'd even be find being 15-67 so long as we saw some signs of growth. Maybe those are still to come, but right now there is no reason to believe that.
I'm just some random Spurs fan, and I was able to figure it out - what do you think people with an interest in seeing Wemby in a larger market will do?
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