Official 2024 Men's Olympic Basketball Tournament Thread

[Chinook]

No, they don't. Marine Le Pen has lost over and over and over, never winning despite polls showing she will. She is a loser and loses and loses. She's a loser and the far right never wins in any elections. Never

Non-metropolian means the territories that France has that aren't continental France. Le Pen was actually the winner in those areas during the run-off, but Melenchon won in the first ballot:





If it were purely a political expression, you'd expect Macron to pick up the areas Melenchon won in the first ballot. Lesser of two evils, as it were. That they flipped to Le Pen suggests they were more anti-Macron than anything else. Seeing Macron's foreign policy, I am not surprised.

But yes, Le Pen sucks and is a loser. I don't disagree there at all.

(While I didn't post a pic here, the outer areas mostly didn't vote for Macron's coalition in this most recent election. That could mean Macron's party didn't want to pick them up or that the voters there didn't want to support any coalition he was endorsing. But it's not a one-time thing.)

[Frenchfred]

Americans are racist as . They own racism. That doesn't mean the French aren't racist as well. It is literally true there is no such category of people in France as "African-French". You're either French (white) or you're not.

I never said that French were not racist. But saying that we don't have a category called African-French makes us more racists is stupid, sorry. If you are born in France, you are not born in Africa; so what's the point of reminding a person of its origins in calling him African-French. I find the African-American term stupid as well. Saying that somebody is black or white is not derogatory, it is simply the color of their skin.

Of course, the free immigration is pissing people up and there is no problem with it. Discussing immigration should not lead to calling people racist or fascist, countries have the right to decide who comes and who doesn't. Living in Switzerland, you should be really be aware of it as it is one of the toughest country to emigrate to. I can tell you that if France was applying Swiss immigration policies in place, it would be much better but somehow if France does it, we are racist.

[rjv]

Cogito Ergo Sum

that's really more of the Cartesian "I think, therefore i am" premise. TD was really going for more of a Socratic "all I know is I know nothing" vibe with a sprinkle of iykyk thrown in. (oh , i just pulled a chinook!)

[Brazil]

Aren't you black and French? You should know better than anyone.

I'm no Francophobe, je parle, I live in Switzerland. It is well known and commonly accepted French people hate immigrants, that there is no such concept of "African French", their policies of allowing free immigration from colonized states seriously pisses off "white French". This isn't even controversial, it's just true.

not sure what you are saying here, give me one example of a country where a good portion of the people is not pissed off by immigration ? Even Canada is starting to have issues with that, Switzerland is also a good example of a country who has difficulties with immigration, also well known that German Swiss "hate" italian Swiss and so on...

I'm sorry to tell you that but no, French people don't hate immigrants, that's too large of a generalization... We could dig into the no concept of African French that is mostly linked to a model of integration by assimilation rather than the English communitarism, and as you have seen this model is showing its limits.

I can play the game of who I find more racist... everybody has his list bro... as crazy as it sounds Brazilian are for instance contrary to the appearances extremely racist but this is a diferent form than in Europe, Argentina, Korea are also examples worth to dig into... but that's not really the place here.

[Chinook]

i wake up to see this thread has changed to a debate on which country hates blacks more and/or is more imperialistic: France or the US. it's like comparing McDonalds to Burger King, or Taco Bell to Taco Bueno.

I wish we were talking about which one is more imperialist. Only one French poster has been willing to admit that France is imperialist at all (excluding P14 who has made it clear they aren't getting into that topic).

[Chinook]

that's really more of the Cartesian "I think, therefore i am" premise. TD was really going for more of a Socratic "all I know is I know nothing" vibe with a sprinkle of iykyk thrown in. (oh , i just pulled a chinook!)

Dude, could you condescend a little less next time plz?

[rjv]

Dude, could you condescend a little less next time plz?

i was shooting for irony.

[Dex]

Do we need to move this thread to the Political Forum?

[Chinook]

To the French posters in this thread:


I do think there is a nuanced discussion to be had about Embiid, his letter, the factors that could have led to the letter being written, the response and the geopolitical context of that response. Those elements are all intertwined, and I do resist the attempts to assert they can be separated.

However, I do think it's going to derail this thread if I/we keep harping on it. So I can take the L here in the sense that the folks booing Embiid might be doing it with clean hearts and in good fun solely due to reading a letter, and that I should not have accused them of any consideration of the geopolitical context in which their responses exists. I can also admit that I do not watch soccer despite living in Austin where they keep trying to make Austin FC a thing.

[Chinook]

i was shooting for irony.

I was shooting for tongue-in-cheek.

To me, the Cogito was taught more as the core axiom of epistemology (with the associated phrase of "I am a thinking thing"). It's basically the idea that pulls Descartes out of his spiral of doubting every thing. He set being able to think and doubt as what it meant to exist, and because he could think, he could take it as a truth that he existed. In other words, I think; therefore I am.

But I don't know if they teach it differently in France, so I didn't question it.

[TD 21]

^ If Embiid had never shown interest and cited the initial reason you stated, then I'd agree with the crux of the argument I think (again, haven't read much and don't have the time nor interest) you're making.

The problem is, Embiid led the French on by showing interest and going through a process, only to do what he was clearly always going to, which was play cool kids and start on the two-yard line.

We know it's his prerogative and he'd have still received backlash either way, but it'd be with less vitriol.

As far as booing in general, it's not my style (no, not even S bag). But as long as it's warranted, I don't have a problem with it either.

[Limguogolo]

Oh wow, so you DON'T know what your country does overseas. You really do think France is just “friends” with all these poor third-world countries and that their shared language is a sign of brotherhood and not the mark of their oppression. Why is French the educated language of these nations? Why is English the lingua franca of the world? The answer is not that those languages are so great that everyone wants to preserve them.

And yes, the US also has black people in high-culture positions. , a person of South-Asian/African descent might be the next president. The current UK PM is of Afro-Indian descent. None of that means those countries don't do imperialist or that the fact that so much talent from other nations flocks to them is a happy accident.

If you seriously believe the things you wrote, it's a sign that France is far more successful in selling the US's beard status to its people to cover up its own issues than I realized. France is a top-five most imperialist nation on the planet. Not in the past. Literally right now. I'm not even getting into their habit of claiming far-off territories as being part of their country. That's old imperialism and only some nations like Russia are playing that game at the moment. I'm talking about neo-colonialism, the type of military adventurism, exploitative trade deals and "masters of the universe" the US uses to control the world. If you don't know that your country is one of the biggest players of that game, you haven't looked into French foreign policy very deeply.

A Texan (or whatever) is giving me a lesson on French history and culture, that's funny.

Yes, you are right, I suppose that the white flag must be the cutting-edge weapon used by French imperialism to impose its views in the world. Maybe the creation of the Olympics is still imperialism. Perhaps the desire to keep the UN bodies viable to perpetuate the multilateralist spirit inspired, in part, by the USA, but which many American presidents for twenty years have sought to deny, is still imperialism. Perhaps making intimate verbal films without special effects should be proof of French imperialism in the world. Perhaps our fascination with all the cultures of the world, and first and foremost American cultures (basketball, for instance), is an unacknowledged tendency of our arrogant imperialism. Perhaps our desire to create a society based on multiculturalism in which everyone can live together and nourish themselves from each other's culture, marveling at the diversity of our society instead of asking each individual to the same community to stay among themselves in order to hope for social peace, that this too is still a form of imperialism. Perhaps, moreover, we are trying to impose our “secularism” on the world, a principle rarely understood…

Where you are right is that all these values ​​tend to be lost.

Racism does exist in France. It used to be only racism linked to poor people, to ghettos, that the country allowed to develop. With already terrible consequences: on average, people were not very racist (also a result of the colonialist past, and the past of collaboration with an anti-Semitic and genocidal occupying regime), but it was not direct: blacks or Arabs did not have of the same level of education, they were then victims of racism when they were looking for a job or housing (which is already a big problem, yes, but it doesn't affect other aspects of the society, for instance, mixed couples are not rare). But now, because of social networks, because of far-right media, because of far-right populists, more frontal racism is reappearing. But despite these excesses, I persist in thinking that there is no better country than France to live in when you are different from the historical norm. This country will have to work to ensure that racists do not come to power and that old issues are finally resolved.

Where you might still be right is that Macron's policy is perhaps the closest thing to a form of “imperialism”. But that’s part of the character’s package that tends toward autocracy.

But if there remains imperialism, we must above all speak of “Westernism”. And France takes part, yes. The last resolutely and openly colonial territory is Israel. Israel is an invention of the West. And for several months now, the West has been guilty of complicity in the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. This is the last imperialism, the only one that really matters, the only one of which we in the West are all complicit and guilty.

[rjv]

I was shooting for tongue-in-cheek.

To me, the Cogito was taught more as the core axiom of epistemology (with the associated phrase of "I am a thinking thing"). It's basically the idea that pulls Descartes out of his spiral of doubting every thing. He set being able to think and doubt as what it meant to exist, and because he could think, he could take it as a truth that he existed. In other words, I think; therefore I am.

But I don't know if they teach it differently in France, so I didn't question it.

i know of a German who questioned it (the cogito), but i Kant remember his name.

[Limguogolo]

No, I can't understand why people would boo him repeatedly. I wouldn't care if I were them. The dude could've dressed himself in stars and stripes and made out with Biden during a press conference only to have decided to play for Canada. I wouldn't care at all.

If you can't understand why people would boo Embiid repeatedly, why are you trying to explain to us… our own culture?


— Boo!!!!
— Why are you whistling?
— We're trolling him. It's not very intelligent, but it's not bad. There is no hatred behind it.
— Okay. It's imperialism.
— Uh, what?
— I don't understand your culture, so I'm going to explain to you in a roundabout way that I'm still right talking about your own culture.

[Sugus]

not sure what you are saying here, give me one example of a country where a good portion of the people is not pissed off by immigration ? Even Canada is starting to have issues with that, Switzerland is also a good example of a country who has difficulties with immigration, also well known that German Swiss "hate" italian Swiss and so on...

I'm sorry to tell you that but no, French people don't hate immigrants, that's too large of a generalization... We could dig into the no concept of African French that is mostly linked to a model of integration by assimilation rather than the English communitarism, and as you have seen this model is showing its limits.

I can play the game of who I find more racist... everybody has his list bro... as crazy as it sounds Brazilian are for instance contrary to the appearances extremely racist but this is a diferent form than in Europe, Argentina, Korea are also examples worth to dig into... but that's not really the place here.

It's funny you name-dropped Argentina later in the comment, because it was going to be my exact reply to your first question; Argies largely have no issue with immigration and have historically been an extremely welcoming nation, both as known in "meme culture" (the alleged Nazis in the South), and less known but equally as valid (the incredible Jewish migration, so much so that it almost made them create Israel there).

Your claim on Brazilians is not crazy and quite well-known to anyone who knows anything about LATAM, tbh. Korea and Europe aren't a secret, either. But I somehow doubt Argentina has anywhere near as strong a history to be placed amongst them. Care to enlighten me?

Honestly, French people shouldn't really be talking about any other countries' racism without checking their own first....

(Also at the sheer amount of French colonialism denial in this thread, surprising and disgusting, as it always is).

[Limguogolo]

I think how the non-metropolitan areas of France vote is also an interesting factor to monitor when considering the nation's influence on the world. That's something I've only looked at in passing the last few elections. But it seemed interesting to me how uninterested many of the areas have been in supporting the ruling party. They'll go from far-left to far-right in the same election cycle.

Thank you for illustrating once again that you know nothing about the situation in France. French society and domestic and foreign policy are complex (like all societies). Don't try to draw ready-made conclusions from the bits and pieces you've learned here and there, it's embarrassing.

[ace3g]

[Brazil]

It's funny you name-dropped Argentina later in the comment, because it was going to be my exact reply to your first question; Argies largely have no issue with immigration and have historically been an extremely welcoming nation, both as known in "meme culture" (the alleged Nazis in the South), and less known but equally as valid (the incredible Jewish migration, so much so that it almost made them create Israel there).

Your claim on Brazilians is not crazy and quite well-known to anyone who knows anything about LATAM, tbh. Korea and Europe aren't a secret, either. But I somehow doubt Argentina has anywhere near as strong a history to be placed amongst them. Care to enlighten me?

Honestly, French people shouldn't really be talking about any other countries' racism without checking their own first....

(Also at the sheer amount of French colonialism denial in this thread, surprising and disgusting, as it always is).

I'm gonna try to be as neutral as I can but if you ask to a Brazilian who are the most racists people in the world they will start their list with Argentina... Now I managed plants in Argentina, I went there very frequently I never noticed any particular racism BUT if you go to a football arena, that's crazy... argentinean soccer fans are the most racist bunch I've seen in my life. Must be a football thing I guess.

Also easier to see the issues in the others rather looking into our own

I don't think any French would contest French colonialism history but the so called actual neo colonialism is more complex than it seems. And again compared to china, russia, us or even uk.. france is a toddler

[Chinook]

Point is you have no clue other than what you are reading in english in the press through american outlets. Your vision about the Embiid case and the French so called neo colonialism is, at best, superficial.

...

You statements are caricatural and baseless.

Also easier to see the issues in the others rather looking into our own

[Pauleta14]

that's really more of the Cartesian "I think, therefore i am" premise. TD was really going for more of a Socratic "all I know is I know nothing" vibe with a sprinkle of iykyk thrown in. (oh , i just pulled a chinook!)

The conclusion is the same

Only thing I know for sure is that I am.

There are plenty of philosophical instances, like Plato's allegory of the cave as well

[Chinook]

A Texan (or whatever) is giving me a lesson on French history and culture, that's funny.

See, this is why I was telling Teeds that "condescending" is too loose of a term.

It's not condescending for me to point out easy-to-find facts about French foreign policy. It is condescending for folks to believe their demographics mean their opinions are unassailable by folks who don't share that demographic. Like seriously, bro, just google it. Unless the Internet is being censored in France, you should be able to find sources about it in multiple languages, from outlets all over the world. It's not a secret.

And so we can separate things: I haven't talked about French culture other than to say I enjoy a number of exports from it and that I can concede a lack of familiarity with soccer culture. I am not trying to "explain" that to you. I am going to challenge your perception of France's reputation in the wider Francophonie. That's no more "your culture" than the US's rep around the Anglosphere is American culture. I personally think you should examine your views on people who contribute to the "appreciated cultural diversity". It's not going to all be one way.

Thank you for illustrating once again that you know nothing about the situation in France. French society and domestic and foreign policy are complex (like all societies). Don't try to draw ready-made conclusions from the bits and pieces you've learned here and there, it's embarrassing.

You can actually draw a lot of evidence about a nation's foreign policy by looking its citizens in outer territories. Native Americans. indigenous Hawaiians, Puerto Ricans -- they don't have same view of the US as folks in Nebraska.

Of course, I showed the maps to indicate what I was talking about. You pulled a conclusion out of thin air and just assumed because you're French it had to be more correct.

[Splits]

not sure what you are saying here, give me one example of a country where a good portion of the people is not pissed off by immigration ? Even Canada is starting to have issues with that, Switzerland is also a good example of a country who has difficulties with immigration, also well known that German Swiss "hate" italian Swiss and so on...

I'm sorry to tell you that but no, French people don't hate immigrants, that's too large of a generalization... We could dig into the no concept of African French that is mostly linked to a model of integration by assimilation rather than the English communitarism, and as you have seen this model is showing its limits.

I can play the game of who I find more racist... everybody has his list bro... as crazy as it sounds Brazilian are for instance contrary to the appearances extremely racist but this is a diferent form than in Europe, Argentina, Korea are also examples worth to dig into... but that's not really the place here.

Swiss Germans hate Swiss French. But everyone hates the Italians. They are a dirty group, they are nasty and disgusting no matter which region they hail from, Ticino or Italy proper.

[spurraider21]

Swiss Germans hate Swiss French. But everyone hates the Italians. They are a dirty group, they are nasty and disgusting no matter which region they hail from, Ticino or Italy proper.

[Limguogolo]

See, this is why I was telling Teeds that “condescending” is too loose of a term.

It's not condescending for me to point out easy-to-find facts about French foreign policy. It is condescending for folks to believe their demographics mean their opinions are unassailable by folks who don't share that demographic. Like seriously, bro, just google it. Unless the Internet is being censored in France, you should be able to find sources about it in multiple languages, from outlets all over the world. It's not a secret.

And so we can separate things: I haven't talked about French culture other than to say I enjoy a number of exports from it and that I can concede a lack of familiarity with soccer culture. I am not trying to “explain” that to you. I am going to challenge your perception of France's reputation in the wider Francophonie. That's no more “your culture” than the US's rep around the Anglosphere is American culture. I personally think you should examine your views on people who contribute to the “appreciated cultural diversity”. It's not going to all be one way.



You can actually draw a lot of evidence about a nation's foreign policy by looking its citizens in outer territories. Native Americans. indigenous Hawaiians, Puerto Ricans -- they don't have same view of the US as folks in Nebraska.

Of course, I showed the maps to indicate what I was talking about. You pulled a conclusion out of thin air and just assumed because you're French it had to be more correct.

(He is advising me to “do my own research” on the political and cultural situation in… my own country.)


Let's leave it there. Politics is a subject that is the true national sport in France. You put points on the table that may be real, but you perfectly illustrate that you are incapable of interpreting or understanding them. A bit like a child who learns a new word and tries to use it in a sentence in a strange or counter-meaning. And we're off-topic (it would be simpler if a moderator could cut and link all of this on another topic, but that's not done here I think^^).

[Pauleta14]

Aren't you black and French? You should know better than anyone.

I'm no Francophobe, je parle, I live in Switzerland. It is well known and commonly accepted French people hate immigrants, that there is no such concept of "African French", their policies of allowing free immigration from colonized states seriously pisses off "white French". This isn't even controversial, it's just true.

French ppl have less problem with immigrants than most countries, you, like many are just full of cliches and should educate yourself.

France was built on centuries on immigration, more than any other european country, I myself have a father immigrant.

You are confusing the top of society and the people as well as correlations and causations.

The real causation of the lack of representation of immigrant population isn't even racism but the networking culture and over centalisation of the country where it's more important to know the right ppl, be in the right circles than having the right competency.

FYI (just in case you're willing to learn) France is one of the most diverse countries in the world, probabaly the closest the the USA in that regard, you can find whatever you want and inflate it easily.

Quite ironic that a Swiss dare judge another country on moral basis tho (see what I just did with some stupid cliches about Switzerland? )