Game Thread: Timberwolves (13-11) at Spurs (13-12) Dec. 15, 2024, 6 PM CT

[John B]

Jeremy is far from being a great offensive player, but he was the least of our issues last night.
I feel like a lot of criticism in here is coming from posters who didn't even watch the full game.

Our starters did well against a serious playoff team, our bench was nowhere to be seen.
While we obviously need a couple more players to win serious games on regular basis, we also need our current bench guys to do better.

Then the usual subejctive starts. Is Castle a great rookie? Obviously. Was he last night? Obviously. Is it a long term issue? Obviously not.
Stop trying to find excuses for him when he has a bad game, he's just a rookie.

I think Castle plays better with the starting line up, obviously better players to pass to and open opportunities for him. I think Sochan is a spark plug, a high motor guy who can play on both squad, but could best play with the 2nd squad looking at the bigger picture.

[Pauleta14]

Jeremy is far from being a great offensive player, but he was the least of our issues last night.
I feel like a lot of criticism in here is coming from posters who didn't even watch the full game.

Our starters did well against a serious playoff team, our bench was nowhere to be seen.
While we obviously need a couple more players to win serious games on regular basis, we also need our current bench guys to do better.

Then the usual subejctive starts. Is Castle a great rookie? Obviously. Was he last night? Obviously. Is it a long term issue? Obviously not.
Stop trying to find excuses for him when he has a bad game, he's just a rookie.

Of course Sochan wasn't THE pb during yesterday's loss, it was mostly the bench production.

However, he's a real issue for the Spurs offensive game to be fluid (as it was during his absence) bc he's not a great passer, can't penetrate with the ball like Castle does and is a worse shooter than the latter, meaning he helps pack the paint and puts Wemby in a perimeter role by default bc his inside game is his only option really.

Sochan would be a lot more useful with the 2nd unit and would get more opportunities for simple(r) P&R plays

[LeBowen]

I think Castle plays better with the starting line up, obviously better players to pass to and open opportunities for him. I think Sochan is a spark plug, a high motor guy who can play on both squad, but could best play with the 2nd squad looking at the bigger picture.

Everyone plays better with better teammates around them.
For like a year I've been saying Jeremy should be the glue guy off the bench, but last night he wasn't the problem.

Of course Sochan wasn't THE pb during yesterday's loss, it was mostly the bench production.

However, he's a real issue for the Spurs offensive game to be fluid (as it was during his absence) bc he's not a great passer, can't penetrate with the ball like Castle does and is a worse shooter than the latter, meaning he helps pack the paint and put Wemby in a perimeter role by default bc his inside game is his only option really.

Sochan would be a lot more useful with the 2nd unit and would get more opportunity for simple(r) P&R plays

We can't afford not to start Jeremy against strong wings.
Randle was just 4-11, Jeremy did a great job on him almost every time they matched up.
Barnes is a solid defender, but Randle would have a way easier time in that matchup.
Champagnie is even weaker and Castle is a 6'5 rookie.

We lost against the Lakers because Jeremy was out, he would've easily exhausted old Lebron.

We have no two-way players on the roster other than Wemby and it's a huge issue.
Champagnie is a solid defender, but Castle and Jeremy look like the only legit impact perimeter defenders...but neither of them can shoot well enough.
We have to figure something out.

[scott]

Greatest video le of all time TBH

[Raven]

way too much castle in this team, i'm ready to push him down the depth chart to 4th pg where he belongs until he earns his way back. He's clearly lost confidence in his shot, he needs set plays instead of free flowing bs.

[scott]

They got their early ~15 points lead after rotations started and we never came back. Starters were fine again in the 3rd.
We're just too top heavy and can't afford no production from the bench.
Vassell's performance was inexcusable, he needs to get his together.
Castle is a rookie so he can be excused, but Devin can't. Can't be useless against bench lineups.

Vassell has too many of these nothing games in year 5 of his career to be in real consideration for "Our #2" and that notion should quickly leave everyone's brains.

People like to list him as untouchable, but I'd definitely move him in the right deal.

[Pauleta14]

We can't afford not to start Jeremy against strong wings.
Randle was just 4-11, Jeremy did a great job on him almost every time they matched up.
Barnes is a solid defender, but Randle would have a way easier time in that matchup.
Champagnie is even weaker and Castle is a 6'5 rookie.

We lost against the Lakers because Jeremy was out, he would've easily exhausted old Lebron.

We have no two-way players on the roster other than Wemby and it's a huge issue.
Champagnie is a solid defender, but Castle and Jeremy look like the only legit impact perimeter defenders...but neither of them can shoot well enough.
We have to figure something out.

I agree with the points you make, actually, but they highlight more the roster's deficiencies.

Sochan is, and I'm afraid will always be a cost on offense as much as a necessity on defense as long as he has so many technical deficiencies (not just the shooting), he messes up so many easy plays and forces Wemby (who doesn't need to) to play on the perimeter bc he's such a great passer and Sochan can't shoot and lack court awareness or passing abilities to combine.

Sochan needs to be able to switch inside/out with Wemby for them to become a reliable duo, he just can't as of now and it's a massive issue that Spurs fans refuse to acknowledge bc they like the dude and just look at his own production even if that one can happen at the detriment of the team

[LeBowen]

Vassell has too many of these nothing games in year 5 of his career to be in real consideration for "Our #2" and that notion should quickly leave everyone's brains.

People like to list him as untouchable, but I'd definitely move him in the right deal.

I don't want to write anyone off too soon, but if he can't stay healthy and consistent this season, he should be used in a trade where we actually get a high end starter.
As I wrote in trade ideas topic, if Fox asks out Wright should be on the phone right away and get him with Devin and Hawks picks package.

I agree with the points you make, actually, but they highlight more the roster's deficiencies.

Sochan is, and I'm afraid will always be a cost on offense as much as a necessity on defense as long as he has so many technical deficiencies (not just the shooting), he messes up so many easy plays and forces Wemby (who doesn't need to) to play on the perimeter bc he's such a great passer and Sochan can't shoot and lack court awareness or passing abilities to combine.

Sochan needs to be able to switch inside/out with Wemby for them to become a reliable duo, he just can't as of now and it's a massive issue that Spurs fans refuse to acknowledge bc they like the dude and just look at his own production even if that one can happen at the detriment of the team

Of course our roster is deficient. Without Wemby they wouldn't reach 20 wins.

I actually think Jeremy improved on his decision making and plays with way more confidence in the pain, which was my biggest criticism last season.
He's a non-shooter, but what frustrated me even more were random attempts in the paint that made no sense. This season he's looked like a player with the purpose on most attempts in the paint, big improvement.

As for Wemby playing in the paint, he averaged a dozen threes per game even without Sochan, Wemby is playing on the perimeter because he (and the coaching staff) wants to.

My concern right now would be Vassel.
Both his health and ability.
He already got paid and we need him to start playing on the level of money he's been getting. He was just atrocious last night, none of his shots were even close.

[scott]

Looking at various two-man combos, Wemby-Sochan is still a net positive duo but predictably the offensive production takes a dive. Below are all of the two-man combinations with Wemby, and you can see how the pairing with Sochan provides a defense and rebounding boost but comes at a pretty noticeable drop off in offensive production.

Also of note... the combination of Wemby and Devin, which so many were excited about based on the chemistry it appeared the two might have been developing last season, is the worst pairing Wemby is involved in... rivaled only by pairing him with Branham, one of if not the worst player in all of the NBA.

[Pauleta14]

Of course our roster is deficient. Without Wemby they wouldn't reach 20 wins.

As for Wemby playing in the paint, he averaged a dozen threes per game even without Sochan, Wemby is playing on the perimeter because he (and the coaching staff) wants to.

My concern right now would be Vassel.
Both his health and ability.
He already got paid and we need him to start playing on the level of money he's been getting. He was just atrocious last night, none of his shots were even close.

I'm aware Wemby plays a lot on the perimeter anyway, my point was that we're hoping for him to find a right balance with his inside game (that is soooo much more efficient % wise) and that he doesn't need the insentive Sochan "provides" by default. It makes Wemby even more "comfortable" staying on the perimeter IMHO
He needs an inside/out switch front court partner (like Lauri smh)

As for Vassell, I'm not worried YET on the basketball aspect, only worried on his fitness.

Let's be honest a min, Devin hasn't been put in the most comfortable situation since he came back and it's normal for him to need time to find his groove and be ok with his NEW role.

Yesterday he was horrible, but it was a one off, he's had many efficient games too recently and it's not easy to become a bench player and 3rd option (at best) when you used to start and be 1st/2nd all the time.

He's shown last season post ASG that when put in the right situation and well coached he could become a very good playmaker along with his shooting efficiency, he became Wemby's main assist provider in front of Tre who had the ball more often for ex.

Looking at various two-man combos, Wemby-Sochan is still a net positive duo but predictably the offensive production takes a dive. Below are all of the two-man combinations with Wemby, and you can see how the pairing with Sochan provides a defense and rebounding boost but comes at a pretty noticeable drop off in offensive production.

Also of note... the combination of Wemby and Devin, which so many were excited about based on the chemistry it appeared the two might have been developing last season, is the worst pairing Wemby is involved in... rivaled only by pairing him with Branham, one of if not the worst player in all of the NBA.

Compare those data to last season's post ASG and you'll realize that it's mostly due to the situations players are being put in.

Devin was Vic's best assist provider and his game started to evolve with better playmaking.

He can do it again

[stnick2261]

Looking at various two-man combos, Wemby-Sochan is still a net positive duo but predictably the offensive production takes a dive. Below are all of the two-man combinations with Wemby, and you can see how the pairing with Sochan provides a defense and rebounding boost but comes at a pretty noticeable drop off in offensive production.

Also of note... the combination of Wemby and Devin, which so many were excited about based on the chemistry it appeared the two might have been developing last season, is the worst pairing Wemby is involved in... rivaled only by pairing him with Branham, one of if not the worst player in all of the NBA.

I just did the same search, but with 3-man lineups (including Wemby) to look for context. I sorted by worst NETRTG, and no shocker but Wemby, Vassell and Branham had a -85. What did shock me was the fact that they only played 10 minutes together. I thought there would be more overlap to account for both being much worse than the others, but it seems both players have each played poorly with Wemby (separately).

Also, it seems when Johnson joins the Castle/Wemby duo, they drop off pretty good (-23.9)

When Sochan joins the Castle/Wemby duo, the defense is really good... and rebounding is really good... but the assist% drops to 65% and the assist/turnover ratio drops to 1.0

I was getting my kids to bed last night when I turned the game on my phone, near the end of the first half. I was just in time to see Sochan complete 3 turnovers in a row from bad passes.

[RC_Drunkford]

Looking at various two-man combos, Wemby-Sochan is still a net positive duo but predictably the offensive production takes a dive. Below are all of the two-man combinations with Wemby, and you can see how the pairing with Sochan provides a defense and rebounding boost but comes at a pretty noticeable drop off in offensive production.

Also of note... the combination of Wemby and Devin, which so many were excited about based on the chemistry it appeared the two might have been developing last season, is the worst pairing Wemby is involved in... rivaled only by pairing him with Branham, one of if not the worst player in all of the NBA.

start Wesley

[spurs10]

When Paul, Vassell, and Castle shoot this poorly we ain't winning. Wemby, sans his 3 pt shots, kept us in it with his D and hustle.

[Duncan2177]

Greatest video le of all time TBH

[exstatic]

Spurs need a wake-up call occasionally, like most young teams, and this was one. I liked that Castle saw an actual locked in All D defender in Jaden McDaniels who had size on him, and he struggled with it. It’s something he needs to learn to deal with.

[Raven]

Spurs need a wake-up call occasionally, like most young teams, and this was one. I liked that Castle saw an actual locked in All D defender in Jaden McDaniels who had size on him, and he struggled with it. It’s something he needs to learn to deal with.

I've been saying this since the start of the season. He can defend bigger guys on the perimeter, but the moment they penetrate, he struggles more than his peers. On point guards though, it looks a lot better.

[koriwhat]

They lost because I was in the audience... I'm their bad luck unfortunately. Actually the Spurs are probably a little over .500 when I attend games.

My girlfriend enjoys the fries there at the arena so regardless she was content with the loss.

[exstatic]

They lost because I was in the audience... I'm their bad luck unfortunately. Actually the Spurs are probably a little over .500 when I attend games.

My girlfriend enjoys the fries there at the arena so regardless she was content with the loss.

She is probably used to taking the L by now.

[koriwhat]

She is probably used to taking the L by now.

LMAO... Yours is used to taking 3" though.

[Leetonidas]

They lost because I was in the audience... I'm their bad luck unfortunately. Actually the Spurs are probably a little over .500 when I attend games.

My girlfriend enjoys the fries there at the arena so regardless she was content with the loss.

That's why the last few years I always try to go to games against ty teams cheaper and more likely to win

[koriwhat]

That's why the last few years I always try to go to games against ty teams cheaper and more likely to win

I get free tickets in the lower level row 10 so I can't pass them up when they're given to me. Win or Lose, I'm still winning! Not winning at the concession stand though; that 's expensive!

Merry Christmas, bud!