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Don't know the best place to put this and didn't want to start a new thread... but this is a real sight for sore eyes.
The best balance is the following.
SL: Paul-Castle-Champ-Barnes-Wemby
Bench: Tre-Vassell-Keldon-Sochan-Collins/Bassey
As we know the big issue is benching Vassell and even Sochan won’t happen because of contracts etc.
Don't know the best place to put this and didn't want to start a new thread... but this is a real sight for sore eyes.
lol, Wolves and Warriors are ‘Flagg Curious’.Don't know the best place to put this and didn't want to start a new thread... but this is a real sight for sore eyes.
It's way too late for middling teams to start tanking now. It would be fun to see them try, though.
Warriors were on a 4-13 slide before last night's win. Played at home in 11 out of those 18 games.
We just need to be ahead of 2 out of 3 between Suns, Warriors and Kings to make the play-in.
Tre Jones has been taking a lot of ... but he's actually be quite effective this year
The Spurs have a +9.42 NETRTG with Tre on the court this year, a -1.92 with him off the court.
Little man deserves some credit.
Some other fun metrics... I was looking at our team's shooting in High and Very High Leverage scenarios (similar, but not the same as "clutch time" - if you aren't familiar with leverage stats, here is an explainer: https://darrylblackport.com/posts/20...tats-leverage/), and some of the data may surprise a few folks.
- Not surprisingly, Wemby leads the team in minutes, points, USG and FGA in High and Very High leverage scenarios. He's 9/16 on 2PA and 6/17 on 3PA and has contributed 16 FT pts.
- CP3 is second on the team in these scenarios in minutes and pts, but the most efficient with a 81.25% TS%. The dude delivers when it matters.
- Devin is third in minutes and pts, second in FGA. He's also been very efficient with a 70.59% TS%, making 5/7 2PA and 4/9 3PA.
- Castle is actually second in the team in USG despite being tied for 6th in minutes and being 6th in points. He has NOT been as efficient though, only 52.94% TS% (5/10 2PA, 1/4 3PA)
- Our top 3 guys in High and Very High Leverage scenarios (Wemby, CP3, Devin) all have a 3PAr > 50%, which I found interesting as well (though maybe not surprising since 3PA are inherently higher leverage shots)
While I’m not surprised Tre has been effective and a net positive, I’m surprised he was this positive. He always plays within his limits and run smart sets. He is severely limited though due to his shooting and size, but he knows how to pick his spots and his ineffectiveness due to his small stature is largely exaggerated. I don’t see him as a long term answer to a starting PG but he is a high end backup point who can start some games in a pinch.
I also like blake Wesley and was glad to see him do well with wemby. But he’s very much like a smaller castle in terms of role. Blake is faster but much smaller, less strong and can’t finish close to the level of castle, but they are both seen as point of attack defenders who can drive to the basket. I think Blake has to work on his outside shooting (who on the spurs don’t?), manage his change of speed better and continue to work on his finishing. Blake is an nba player but would likely find more room to for elsewhere. Or the spurs can trade Tre and Blake can grow into that backup PG role.
Sochan has been excellent on defence and is a much better cutter and finisher on offence. But his offensive creation and outside shooting is getting to be huge concerns. The spurs are playing 4 on 5 on offence with him on the floor and while his defense and offensive rebounding is great he has to clean up his offence quick.
I’m also surprised castles defence isn’t as good as the eye test suggests. But then it’s only a few months. He has a long way to go before he can be considered a good defender, let alone an elite one.
Small sample sizes. Strength of schedule has to also be factored in.
Champ needs more minutes. I would think this glaringly obvious, but it seems the trend is in the opposite direction.
Here is where things stand at the 41 game mark. Filtered for lineups with 36 min or more. These are the only ones that qualify.
I posted a lot deeper dive here: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/sho...1#post11182570, but at this stage it is clear that there are certain players who are flat out not compatible. Amongst them:
Keldon + Vassell have a -22.2 NETRTG across 346 minutes. I go deeper into that in the link above.
Vassell + Champ have a -16.2 across 255 minutes.
Sochan + Castle have a -14.6 across 169 minutes.
Vassell + Castle have a -11.4 across 347 minutes.
Keldon + Sochan have a -10.1 across 215 minutes.
Keldon + Castle have a -9.3 across 492 minutes.
What concerns is is that Vassell and Keldon have negative combinations with so many players but when you dig into it, it's really the Vassell + Keldon combination that kills his combos with everyone else.
Last edited by scott; 01-20-2025 at 07:15 PM.
well it looks like our coach is playing the wrong line ups. If you start with CP3/Vassell/Barnes/Sochan/Wemby the first players off the bench should be Castle and Champagnie for Vassell and Sochan, so you play our 2nd strongest line up right after. Then you gotta sub in Keldon/Tre Jones/Bassey. Then sub Wemby back in for Bassey and Vassell for Keldon. Something like that seems to make way more sense than to have Devin out there with the bench for the whole quarter.
4 of the 5 best lineups are without Sochan...
This isn't a list of "best lineups", it's a comprehensive list of ALL the lineups that have played over 36 minutes. You'll also note that the best one has Sochan in it. There is plenty to criticize Sochan for without having to consistently show your ass as someone who doesn't understand statistics.
Bro can we still have some banter once in a while?
Especially with so many days without a game?
Yes, we need Sochan's bacl asap defensively and no he shouldn't be on the floor when it matters. Good?
I agree with this. Sochan makes sense in lineups where he's the only non-shooter in the lineup. He and Castle should never share the court together. There are plenty of "when it matters" scenarios where it might also make sense for him to be on the floor, just not ones that involve needing a 3, that's for damn sure. Sochan has a lot to improve, but he's still the 3rd most promising player on our team, tbh (behind Wemby and Castle). That's saying something about Sochan, but also about the state of our roster.
Yes, we need Sochan's bacl asap defensively and no he shouldn't be on the floor when it matters. Good?
Yep.
As for Sochan all I'm asking is him to prove me wrong. We'll see
I think expectations should be adjusted, and that isn't directed towards you. He's not going to be the next two-way star (I laughed even typing that), and his offensive role most likely is and needs to be 5th option, garbage man cutter/slasher. But that's okay, teams need that too. He's a lot different than Draymond, but if he can deliver the kind of impact Draymond does, that would be quite a valuable player. I hope you're also wrong (which would mean I'm also wrong... I'm not actually counting on this happening)
Of course, he'll be open to a LOT more criticism when the Spurs give him some stupid extension, as they are likely to do, this offseason. I've got a got more patience for Sochan if he's on a 4/54 (Austin Reeves contract) than if he's on a 5/140 (my avatar will be changing at that point)
Again, I hope I'm wrong.
However...
I don't think people can change, there are exceptions to every rule, let's hope Sochan is one of them, but I doubt it.
Sochan struck me from the get-go as the anti-Spurs player, as much by his "lackadaisical" at ude, willingness to draw attention to him, than his poor fundamentals or BBIQ and I was surprised to see how much a fan favorite he was after his rookie season (I re-started watching NBA only last season with Wemby's arrival and missed the previous), so I decided to wait and see again after a longer period, but time only confirmed my initial impressions. And still does.
His shooting isn't what worries me like it does for 99% of ST actually, it's the easiest part to fix long term. Even if he doesn't get that much better, he'd still be valuable as a plug-in role player. Not a starter and even less a closer obviously tho...
What worries me is the gap between where he is fundamentally wise and where he should (in a normal world) be as an NBA player, it's his body language, it's his lack of progress in court awareness, it's his clumsiness with the ball or lack of touch/feel for the game, especially when the team is centered around a very particular player that requires higher IQ than average to play the (singular) way he ambitions to.
All those are so much more difficult to teach at his age, those are learned are a much younger age and usually part of the selections. He went thought those thx to his physique and the potential it represents as much as his grit/fighting spirit that are as admirable as they are insufficient to become as elite bb player.
Had we drafted a more traditional big, Sochan's limitations would be less of an issue, but Wemby shines with high passing abilities and IQ/feel for the game around him. Sochan is (a lot) more benefiting from Wemby by being spoon fed thanks to the attention he draws than he brings to Wemby.
Tbf it's also a matter of taste of vision of basketball and team sports, I like players that use their brains, I'd rather have players that are average in every domain than great in a couple and awful in others. It's just me. and one of the many reasons I became as Spurs fan decades ago. (hence my surprise to see Sochan being a fan favorite)
Spurs can find so much better even if we lose a bit of defensive grit. As of now he's not worth a new 5 years investment with the places being counted.
Sounds like you have "old man yells at cloud" problems with Sochan that cloud your judgement. Hilarious that you go around calling other people Karen (which you clearly don't know the meaning of
Wow, what a fool was I thinking we could have a civilized exchanged...Sounds like you have "old man yells at cloud" problems with Sochan that cloud your judgement. Hilarious that you go around calling other people Karen (which you clearly don't know the meaning of
So 1st what you call "old man yells at cloud" is called experienced. You're obviously free to dismiss it, maybe you're one of those who doesn't learn from his mistakes with age.
2nd, no idea how your reference of "Karen" (that I only call ONE poster that way bc she acted in a way that deserves it, no need to panic with a bs narrative mate) is relevant to the topic.
Lastly I've repeatedly said that I'd love to be wrong, which implies that I'm not stuck with the opinion I have today, just that the probabilities are low.
Go drink a large glass of milk and go to bed scotty.
I don't think at this point there is any way the front office gives him a 5/140 or anything close at this point. We've had a good half season to see what Sochan is and isn't - versatile defender but can't change a defense on his own, interior toughness, can't shoot. The hopes that he could secondary playmake are basically dead at this point, and his ceiling is quite a bit more limited albeit still very valuable on a contending team. Dort is on a 5/80, Caruso is on a 4/80 and I think both are ok-ish comps for the type of impact (scaled for age and potential) that Sochan could be in his second contract.
The best comp that I can see for him at this stage of his career though, is probably Okongwu, who got 4/62. Mid-lottery pick, lower counting stats but better impact metrics, couldn't really shoot, good defender, undersized for his position. I'd scale that contract to the current cap and see if you can lock Sochan down with that number, which would be very palatable for what he brings. That way he's got 4-5 years to build a decent outside shot and prove that he deserves a bigger contract.
I agree with the Reaves-Okongwu range for Jeremy. I was exaggerating with the 5/140... but not by that much. My faith in this FO is that low right now.
I'm expecting something more along the lines of 5/100, which would still be an overpay... but not overly egregious. Important to keep in mind that ULTBE bonuses count against the Apron, so I'll have my eye on how much the Spurs start adding these on to deals going forward. Devin has about $2.2MM/yr of ULTBE bonuses on his deal that was signed before the CBA and the apron was known. Curious if the Spurs get more conservative with those.
Kind of an unrealistic expectation that Jeremy could have a similar impact to one of the all-time great defenders in league history in Draymond. If he could have that kind of positive impact to the team I'd be thrilled to have him on a 5/140 deal.
You went on a rampage of childish behavior for a solid month or so before I put you on ignore (where you still are, other than me checking why you are quoting me). We can't have a civilized exchange, because you haven't proven to be a civilized member of this website. Au revoir, le conWow, what a fool was I thinking we could have a civilized exchanged...
So 1st what you call "old man yells at cloud" is called experienced. You're obviously free to dismiss it, maybe you're one of those who doesn't learn from his mistakes with age.
2nd, no idea how your reference of "Karen" (that I only call ONE poster that way bc she acted in a way that deserves it, no need to panic with a bs narrative mate) is relevant to the topic.
Lastly I've repeatedly said that I'd love to be wrong, which implies that I'm not stuck with the opinion I have today, just that the probabilities are low.
Go drink a large glass of milk and go to bed scotty.
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