Spurs Select F Jeremy Sochan with the 9th Pick in the 2022 NBA Draft

[Pauleta14]

I'm not going into ur mad convo, it'll be my last answer

You still don't get the point, you talk about "a series of diff stats" as if you were making a point when you're confirming mine. One or a (selected) series of stats doesn't change the fact that not only it'll always be a fraction of the whole picture but even if you had all the data potentially available it would'nt teach you more than what your eyes can see, because humans aren't robots and too many aspects of the games and human behavior aren't possible to transcribe.

What data can tell you a player is clumsy (like Sochan is) for ex? Only your eyes can.

The point is stop thinking coming with some data can make you win an argument, it's insane even if it's a habit in the NBA world.

Try to be humble maybe?

Maybe stop, like too many on ST, acting like whoever has a diff opinion is a hater or doesn't know ? It's fine to disagree, in the end one of us will be right, the other wrong and we'll go to the next topic.

As for Tre, you said a lot more than that, you were defending the fact that he should be part of the core and be extended as he represented a quality option as a backup PG. I said at that time and even more today that it was insane to envision keeping a player that had so many limitations on both sides of the court but you kept coming with your "data". Your only argument being as usual that I didn't "backup my claim with stats" as if watching Tre Jones being embarrased on D or a liability on O required any.

Lastly, regarding Sochan, the fact that after 3 seasons you think that the issue is that he isn't being coached properly is ... WTF Ok he has some excuses but he also has had a lot more help and advantages than the average rookie entering the league. PATFO literary offered him the starting position that even in college he never had!

People don't change, Sochan issues/limitations aren't just basketball/skill related and he's shown those enough in 3 years.

His ceiling is a defensive plug-in role player if he manages to be decent at shooting open 3s. He can't be seen as part of the core of a team, he would by default lower the IQ average of said team, which is a lack of ambition to me.

Spurs can find a lot better to develop with a lot higher floor.

[ambchang]

I'm not going into ur mad convo, it'll be my last answer

You still don't get the point, you talk about "a series of diff stats" as if you were making a point when you're confirming mine. One or a (selected) series of stats doesn't change the fact that not only it'll always be a fraction of the whole picture but even if you had all the data potentially available it would'nt teach you more than what your eyes can see, because humans aren't robots and too many aspects of the games and human behavior aren't possible to transcribe.

What data can tell you a player is clumsy (like Sochan is) for ex? Only your eyes can.

The point is stop thinking coming with some data can make you win an argument, it's insane even if it's a habit in the NBA world.

Try to be humble maybe?

Maybe stop, like too many on ST, acting like whoever has a diff opinion is a hater or doesn't know ? It's fine to disagree, in the end one of us will be right, the other wrong and we'll go to the next topic.

As for Tre, you said a lot more than that, you were defending the fact that he should be part of the core and be extended as he represented a quality option as a backup PG. I said at that time and even more today that it was insane to envision keeping a player that had so many limitations on both sides of the court but you kept coming with your "data". Your only argument being as usual that I didn't "backup my claim with stats" as if watching Tre Jones being embarrased on D or a liability on O wasn't enough.

Lastly, regarding Sochan, the fact that after 3 seasons you think that the issue is that he isn't being coached properly is ... WTF Ok he has some excuses but he also has had a lot more help and advantages than the average rookie entering the league. PATFO literary offered him the starting position that even in college he never had!

People don't change, Sochan issues/limitations aren't just basketball/skill related and he's shown those enough in 3 years.

His ceiling is a defensive plug-in role player if he manages to be decent at shooting open 3s. He can't be seen as part of the core of a team, he would by default lower the IQ average of said team, which is a lack of ambition to me.

Spurs can find a lot better to develop with a lot higher floor.

Just absolutely making up as you go. I said do not just dump tre last year because he’s the only guy who can play point and hed be a great backup point in the future. If you want to interpret it as saying hes a core then feel free, but nobody other than you would interpret it this way.

As for stats you have brought in nothing. Your original assertion than sochan will benefit without wemby is already shown statistically to be untrue, and it wasn’t even the first time, but instead of admitting you were wrong you started taking about how to use stats despite showing time and time again Yiu have zero ability to even understand the most basic of statistics, while bringing absolutely nothing to back up your claim. At the same time telling others to be humble while having no ability to even comprehend any other point of view consistently over a long period of time.

Just for the record, sochan isn’t a core in the strongest sense but he’s not someone you should just get rid of because he didn’t pass the humility filled pauletta14 eye test. He is a useful player on a team, either as an energy guy or a defender. He can be a fifth cog on the wheel or a sixth man. He has improved his chemistry with wemby but his lack of shooting is a huge problem because he clogs the lane. That said his defense is helping the team more than not.

[Obstructed_View]

Jeremy just refusing to shoot when open and people in here just determined to assert that he has been working on his jumpshot. If that's the case then the Spurs need to fire their shooting coach out of a canon into the sun.

[Pauleta14]

Jeremy just refusing to shoot when open and people in here just determined to assert that he has been working on his jumpshot. If that's the case then the Spurs need to fire their shooting coach out of a canon into the sun.

There's clearly an emotional factor that prevent any rational exchange with Sochan's defenders, they're just attached to the dude and refuse defeat.

[RC_Drunkford]

Jeremy just refusing to shoot when open and people in here just determined to assert that he has been working on his jumpshot. If that's the case then the Spurs need to fire their shooting coach out of a canon into the sun.

the only person claiming that is exstatic . He also said Vassell has turned a corner. Go figure

[The Truth #6]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.

[Gagnrath]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.

Personally I think that Sochan needs to have a role and a goal. To often it seems that he's just told to go make good things happen. That clearly isn't going to work. Can we please as a team start to have some structure.

[Gandalf]

Sochan desperately needs to work hard with Castle’s shooting coach (or another one like Chip Englund, etc.). Otherwise, his career is guaranteed to be much shorter and less successful than it could be.

[KobesAchilles]

Wheres the person who said we should give the guy 100 million at? Cricket cricket. Dude just makes up his own MLE number for no apparent reason and then says the Spurs have to go higher than his already higher than reality MLE contract. I’d offer 4 years 48 million and see if anybody matches. If so, then I’d offer him the MLE contract of 1$14 million per year and just be done with it.

People on this site want ALL our bench players making 20+ million apparently

[Seventyniner]

I'm still here, and I still think Sochan would get a full MLE contract (77/4) from another team if he hits free agency. Teams pay up for potential all the time and Sochan will only be 23 at that point.

From the Spurs POV, if 77/4 is worthwhile then adding a 5th year is also, making the contract 90/5.

I don't think Sochan will be a bench player on an actualized Spurs contender. Fox/Castle/upgraded SF/Sochan/Wemby is a fine lineup.

[ambchang]

Personally I think that Sochan needs to have a role and a goal. To often it seems that he's just told to go make good things happen. That clearly isn't going to work. Can we please as a team start to have some structure.

I agree with this. Sochan is a role player and as such would require a role. The issue is he is being asked to be all the roles. Ball handling, backup centre, perimeter defender, interior defender, cutter, shooting corner threes, screen and role guy, etc. hes good at a few things, so get him working on those and if you want to add other skills work on them one at a time, first in practice, then slowly into the game.

This guy isn’t some basketball prodigy who can do random things because you told him to, he’s a hustle player who is willing to do whatever you tell him to. Let him stick to role player stuff, then work from there.

[ambchang]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.

Are you sure though? Better check with Pauleta14 with humility so that he can grace you with his eye test conclusions that is the be all and end all of basketball discussions.

[The Truth #6]

Are you sure though? Better check with Pauleta14 with humility so that he can grace you with his eye test conclusions that is the be all and end all of basketball discussions.

Lol.

[scott]

Wheres the person who said we should give the guy 100 million at? Cricket cricket. Dude just makes up his own MLE number for no apparent reason and then says the Spurs have to go higher than his already higher than reality MLE contract. I’d offer 4 years 48 million and see if anybody matches. If so, then I’d offer him the MLE contract of 1$14 million per year and just be done with it.

People on this site want ALL our bench players making 20+ million apparently

Yeah, I think the play here is to not extend Jeremy at all this summer and let him hit RFA on the QO, though I'm not sure what impact that will have on our ability to do other things in the Summer of 26 (unless we move Vassell and Keldon, we won't have a lot of room to do anything else anyway, tbh). His Cap Hold for RFA is currently listed as $21.5MM on Spotrac, but I don't know if that gets adjusted down to his QO when it happens, I'm not too polished on that part of the cap.

Tell Jeremy that all we can do right now is 4/48, but we understand if he wants to just play it out in Year 4 and earn a bigger deal, which we'll be happy to play if he improves.

I like Jeremy's trajectory - but not enough to chase his potential and make another Vassell-level mistake.

[Pauleta14]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.

I was (wrongly) expecting him to look better without Wemby bc I had in mind the way he was used when Wemby had a slow start and little PT to start the season

Since then he's become a bench playe, Fox has arrived and Castle blossomed. He's doomed now bc he won't get the easy P&R he used to have

[Pauleta14]

Are you sure though? Better check with Pauleta14 with humility so that he can grace you with his eye test conclusions that is the be all and end all of basketball discussions.

You're such an idiot, I exposed all your points and you had nothing to come back with.

Go study stats

[ambchang]

You're such an idiot, I exposed all your points and you had nothing to come back with.

Go study stats

For someone who never used any stats to backup his arguments, and actually said stats can be selectively used to prove any point (true) but somehow was never able to find any stats to prove his point, coupled with the countless times in which he has misinterpreted stats, it is insanely rich for you to suggest people to go study stats.


If you can look at the thread with humility, you will notice that your eye test isn’t as incredible as you think, which is also why you are not a professional scout because if your eye tests are so incredible you’d be pulling in millions watching basketball instead of having to pay for whatever subscription to watch the game on TV.

Your points about usage or stats would be applicable if you’d be able to find other stats to dispute the point and show that those are exceptions, which would be valid, but fact is there are multiple stats from different sources showing something contrary to what you assert, so the reasonable conclusion is that your assertion is incorrect and the onus is on you to prove otherwise. Then your only counter point is muh eye test just shows how little you actually know about not just statistics, but the overall concept of debate.

Using sweeping generalizations on how statistics could be misinterpreted would’ve been valid as an overall statement, but it isn’t a counterpoint. A counterpoint would be to show statistics that support your standpoint and then any reasonable person would be able to debate the validity of data points and why they differ. Despite saying you can use stats to prove anything, you are unable to come up with any stats to support your point, not this time, not ever (that I can recall).


As such, your only recourse is to grandstand and call those who call you out a Karen (again clearly showing you don’t understand the term), an idiot, and then somehow declare victory with no counterpoints because others who don’t agree with you should submit to you and your eye tests with humility as if you are an expert in anything.

To top it off, you immediately did a 180 after two games; and threw in some weak excuse as if you didn’t spend all this time avoid stating your reasoning as to why sochan would benefit from the absence of wemby, even though anyone who has any reasonable cognitive skills would be able to deduce that most people would benefit immensely by playing with someone of Wembys gravity and skills.

The amount of stupidity that you have exhibited in a few posts is absolutely astounding, most people can’t even do it if they tried but you can just naturally do so many thing wrong without much effort. For that I commend you.

[Obstructed_View]

There's clearly an emotional factor that prevent any rational exchange with Sochan's defenders, they're just attached to the dude and refuse defeat.

I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.

[Obstructed_View]

That’s not even remotely true.

How would you know?

[Ice009]

I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.

So you think it has gone downhill since before Tim left his stint coaching? I didn't follow the team too closely back then. Can't even remember who was on the team. What year was it that TD coached?

[spurraider21]

I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.

i'd say sochan's interior footwork/scoring has gotten a lot better

but yeah. my thinking is... if sochan left the team in the offseaosn (i know he's not a free agent), how much would the team struggle due to his absence and how difficult would it be to fill his rotation spot?

[z0sa]

The problem is Sochan should be a SF who plays big for his position but has none of the offensive skills, especially shooting, expected nowadays for that. He's decent as a power forward but doesn't have the bulk or height to defend large guys in the lane and doesn't block shots really. As a C, it's just a joke.

Thus, his best trait is his perimeter defense, which again would be great if he could be a SF who crossmatched, who had a corner 3, etc instead of being pigeonholed into small-ball after small-ball lineup because he simply isn't guarded even 8-10 feet from the basket.

[mystargtr34]

The problem is Sochan should be a SF who plays big for his position but has none of the offensive skills, especially shooting, expected nowadays for that. He's decent as a power forward but doesn't have the bulk or height to defend large guys in the lane and doesn't block shots really. As a C, it's just a joke.

Thus, his best trait is his perimeter defense, which again would be great if he could be a SF who crossmatched, who had a corner 3, etc instead of being pigeonholed into small-ball after small-ball lineup because he simply isn't guarded even 8-10 feet from the basket.

Agree. I’ve been saying Sochans most valuable position would be as a big 3 who guards the best player 1 through 4. Problem is he needs to have at least a respected corner 3 for that otherwise he just clogs everything for everyone. He could play the dunker/cutter spot like Aaron Gordon, Amen Thompson, Derrick Jones Jr, Jalen McDaniels but they all gave at least a respectable jumper except for mayb Amen but he’s a freak athlete which Sochan is not.

[Pauleta14]

I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.

And players' development

The problem is Sochan should be a SF who plays big for his position but has none of the offensive skills, especially shooting, expected nowadays for that. He's decent as a power forward but doesn't have the bulk or height to defend large guys in the lane and doesn't block shots really. As a C, it's just a joke.

Thus, his best trait is his perimeter defense, which again would be great if he could be a SF who crossmatched, who had a corner 3, etc instead of being pigeonholed into small-ball after small-ball lineup because he simply isn't guarded even 8-10 feet from the basket.

You summed up perfectly why he's so hard to be used.

Whatever situation or position he's put in he'll present a handicap for the team ultimately.

And we're just playing RS games, just imagine in PO situations where teams actually scout and game plan, he'd make it too easy for our opp

[rankingtear]

Agree. I’ve been saying Sochans most valuable position would be as a big 3 who guards the best player 1 through 4. Problem is he needs to have at least a respected corner 3 for that otherwise he just clogs everything for everyone. He could play the dunker/cutter spot like Aaron Gordon, Amen Thompson, Derrick Jones Jr, Jalen McDaniels but they all gave at least a respectable jumper except for mayb Amen but he’s a freak athlete which Sochan is not.

But a lot of those guys don't play with a 7'3 curry yet it works. The spacing between them and their C is worse than Sochan-Wemby. Maybe we just don't have an offense.