Devin Vassell has to go asap.

[Raven]

Yes, you do. If it was just that one metric showing Devin is a negative on the court, then you'd have an argument.
But he's a negative by every possible advanced metric.

Look at that on/off chart, I guess it's not his fault everyone has a worse rating when he's on the floor.
Maybe we should trade everyone and build around Devin.

what i am trying to explain to you and your friend, is that it is NOT a metric, it is a prediction.

[LeBowen]

what i am trying to explain to you and your friend, is that it is NOT a metric, it is a prediction.

No, you're not trying to explain , you're just trolling and acting dumb whenever you reach an impass.
You just try to change the subject and hope people will stop engaging you.

I told you to explain any other metric that has nothing to do with DARKO, they're not all prediction based.

[Chomag]

Spurs should trade him for Haliburton tbh. Oh wait...

[J_Paco]

Spurs should trade him for Haliburton tbh. Oh wait...

Haliburton is better than Devin, obviously, but drafting him would've made little sense when Derrick White, DeJounte Murray, Tre Jones, Patty Mills & DeMar DeRozan were all on the team at the time.

Point guard wasn't a big need and the Spurs (wrongfully) thought Devin was more swingman than SG.

And there were major concerns about Haliburton's funky jumper and porous defense lowering his ceiling as prospect. He proved one of those assumptions (shooting) wrong but the other one (poor defense) right.

[J_Paco]

There are zero Devin haters. Nobody dislikes Devin as a person. I want him gone bc he doesn’t fit with our team. And it’s clear for everyone to see that he doesn’t fit with our team. You just said we need wing defense. Why? Bc he can’t defend. He has the size and the length to be our wing defender, but not the want to or the smarts to play defense. He is constantly out of position, zones out from guarding his man, and just an overall traffic cone. And he doesn’t fight for boards at all. I don’t need him grabbing a boatload of rebounds but I do need him in the fray boxing out his man and tipping the ball to people on our team.

And offensively he is just as dumb. He is just a “when I get the ball I shoot” type of player. Those players are a dime a dozen. This is why he struggles to be a 3rd option bc even they need to know how to play offense. Now ideally, he is the 4th option. And people here say he needs to learn how to adjust to be the 4th option. But what adjustments are there really other than he can’t jack up shots like crazy. His adjustment I guess would be efficiency? But if he is struggling with not shooting contested fade away 2s instead of wide open 3s then again where is his fit? It’s not like the Spurs are telling him he can’t shoot. Just that he needs to shoot 3s instead of contested 2s. He also sets lazy ass screens. Like it’s embarrassing. God I miss Danny Green. He’s the player we need on this team.

Everything about what you said about or needs is true. And literally by your own admission, what we don’t need is a player like Devin. There’s zero hate. His game doesn’t fit our team. And idk how you can argue otherwise.

Well, when all you (don't mean you specifically, BTW) do is complain about a player ad nasuem, whether they have good, great or bad performance then that comes across as hating.

No one should like every player on a team roster. , I've been on the 'please trade Zach Collins & Keldon Johnson' bandwagon for years. That doesn't mean I'm going to on Keldon - since Zach finally got traded - every chance I get even after good performance.

Quite to the contrary, I don't expect or want him to be more because of his draft position. I want him to be a good 3rd/4th option. The problem is that he only looks good when he's put in position to be a primary option, and even then he's not so good that it warrants prioritizing him in that role. Basically, Devin isn't the best on the team at the thing he does best, and his skillset doesn't really fit any longer. It's not personal against Devin, it's just the situation.

As for it being "par for the course on ST" to complain about someone... why wouldn't fans of a team want to improve their weakest links? You can be a fan without having blind subservience to the product. I believe the Spurs are one of the NBA's three elite historical franchises. Lakers, Celtics, Spurs. We're the only one out of that group who does it organically and without just buying our way to les. But to do that, the team should demand excellence throughout the organization. As a fan, I demand the same. Players like Branham will always be worthy of criticism and complaint, because they are not worthy of the shirt.

It is par for the course cause the member names may change, but complaining about someone (even good performers) incessantly is the norm here.

I think it part of human psychology (or the human psyche) to notice or point out the bad or mistakes of others. I get that, but a nice balance here (and all throughout the internet, TBH) would be welcome.

[scott]

Well, when all you (don't mean you specifically, BTW) do is complain about a player ad nasuem, whether they have good, great or bad performance then that comes across as hating.

No one should like every player on a team roster. , I've been on the 'please trade Zach Collins & Keldon Johnson' bandwagon for years. That doesn't mean I'm going to on Keldon - since Zach finally got traded - every chance I get even after good performance.



It is par for the course cause the member names may change, but complaining about someone (even good performers) incessantly is the norm here.

I think it part of human psychology (or the human psyche) to notice or point out the bad or mistakes of others. I get that, but a nice balance here (and all throughout the internet, TBH) would be welcome.

You start off with the premise that "all we do" is complain about a player ad nauseum. Posters like KobesAchilles and myself post about a lot of things. Complaining about Devin is not "all we do" - and frankly I can't think of many posters who are one-track trolls in that regard. Maybe you are overly sensitive to (deserved) criticism of Devin? Or do you suggest we just stop talking about it and hope his flaws are magically cured? Or should we just accept that we're going to have a flawed roster and pretend like it doesn't exist? I'm not sure I even understand your complaint here, because it's based on a faulty premise (that there are people who "all they do" is complain about Devin, or any other player for that matter). I admit, however, I do have a decent number of people on ignore so maybe I'm missing it.

Complaining about performances that don't meet expectations are the norm here because we've been a bad team for quite too long, not just by our own standards but by league standards in general. Only the Hornets have a longer playoff drought than us. There is simply been more bad to point out than good. Even if that weren't the case, I do agree that we (humans) tend to focus more on the bad than the good, but that's because we are trying to get better, and doing so usually entails eliminating or limiting the bad things you do. "You're only as strong as your weakest link" is an expression for good reason. Debating what could be better is also where the largest variance of opinion comes in. This forum wouldn't have much discussion if it were just all of us posting "man, that Wemby is good right?" "yeah, he sure is!" There is simply not as much to discuss when we're talking about the positives. You're right though that some of that is just human nature. It's why talk radio and 24 hour "news" channels are so popular... humans feed on disagreement and outrage, unfortunately.

I look forward to when we're better and the general tone can be more positive, but even then people will still want to discuss the areas on the team that can be improved. This may be perceived as "complaining ad nauseum" but that is what fans do.

[Raven]

No, you're not trying to explain , you're just trolling and acting dumb whenever you reach an impass.
You just try to change the subject and hope people will stop engaging you.

I told you to explain any other metric that has nothing to do with DARKO, they're not all prediction based.

ok... which one do you want explained?

[LeBowen]

ok... which one do you want explained?

Let's start with everyone's rating being worse when Devin is on the floor with them, how do you explain that?

[Raven]

Let's start with everyone's rating being worse when Devin is on the floor with them, how do you explain that?

very simple: not normalised.

[LeBowen]

very simple: not normalised.

Alright, I'll play along.
Which stats show that Devin is a positive player for us?

[scott]

what i am trying to explain to you and your friend, is that it is NOT a metric, it is a prediction.

It's a projection... based on historical data... and it has the lowest root mean square error of any other projection model out there.

If you prefer something else, perhaps not a projection model, then you've been asked before to name it and we can look at Devin's through that lens. Your answer is the Raven Eye Test, which is fine. Most people you engage with here have decided your eyesight sucks.

[Raven]

Alright, I'll play along.
Which stats show that Devin is a positive player for us?

hmm let's play semantics a little, before that.. in order for me to use any stat to prove a point, we first need to agree on the exact point we want to make. My point on devin, is that since fox went down, he has been the one carrying the team with very good offence when the game was on the line, and solid D.

[Raven]

It's a projection... based on historical data... and it has the lowest root mean square error of any other projection model out there.

If you prefer something else, perhaps not a projection model, then you've been asked before to name it and we can look at Devin's through that lens. Your answer is the Raven Eye Test, which is fine. Most people you engage with here have decided your eyesight sucks.

well given that i've been ting on his D for years before this year, you should probably concede that a projection based on historical data, isn't going to pick his improvements up, is it..

[scott]

Let's start with everyone's rating being worse when Devin is on the floor with them, how do you explain that?

Raven's response will be that the data is not "normalized" (he really means adjusted) to account for game cir stances, the rest of the lineup around him, the opposing lineup, what someone had for breakfast that day, whether or not Stephen A Smith is going to throw a punch at LeBron or not, etc.

So, in the absence of that, and despite the fact that Devin is 4th on the team in total minutes played, 3rd on the team in MPG, has started 80% of the games he's played in, and that most of his minutes come with the other top rotation players on our team... we are just supposed to assume that Devin has extremely bad luck and is only in the game when all of those things I listed above are working against his favor (but ONLY when he's in the game... other player's don't face these same cir stances before or after Devin is in the game).

What Raven would like is for us to adjust his on-off splits to reflect the extremely unfortunate luck that Devin has and... err... project what his theoretical on-off would be if we "normalized" the data for all of these various cir stances.

Raven also believes that individual stats are a good predictor for team success, so... that gives you a basis for their analytical prowess.

To be fair, if I operated under such birdbrained assumptions, I'd just rely on the eye test too.

[Raven]

Raven's response will be that the data is not "normalized" (he really means adjusted) to account for game cir stances, the rest of the lineup around him, the opposing lineup, what someone had for breakfast that day, whether or not Stephen A Smith is going to throw a punch at LeBron or not, etc.

So, in the absence of that, and despite the fact that Devin is 4th on the team in total minutes played, 3rd on the team in MPG, has started 80% of the games he's played in, and that most of his minutes come with the other top rotation players on our team... we are just supposed to assume that Devin has extremely bad luck and is only in the game when all of those things I listed above are working against his favor (but ONLY when he's in the game... other player's don't face these same cir stances before or after Devin is in the game).

What Raven would like is for us to adjust his on-off splits to reflect the extremely unfortunate luck that Devin has and... err... project what his theoretical on-off would be if we "normalized" the data for all of these various cir stances.

Raven also believes that individual stats are a good predictor for team success, so... that gives you a basis for their analytical prowess.

To be fair, if I operated under such birdbrained assumptions, I'd just rely on the eye test too.

i'd say that's a reasonably fair assessment. Especially if you consider our coach and his genius three pg lineups and sochan as center lineups.. i get that it is an excuse, but it is the truth.

[scott]

well given that i've been ting on his D for years before this year, you should probably concede that a projection based on historical data, isn't going to pick his improvements up, is it..

I have no clue what you've been saying for years, and it's not really relevant to this discussion at all... unless your suggestion that DARKO incorporates your opinions into their model (spoiler alert: they don't)

The DARKO model weighs historical data by recency... so yes, it is going to pick up his improvements. His most recent game is going to be the most heavily weighted data point in the algorithm, and is going to be exponentially more heavily weighted than a game from a year ago (or from five years ago) since it's an exponential decay model.

Maybe you should read how the model works, so you don't sound like such an idiot: https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

[LeBowen]

he has been the one carrying the team

Carrying the team where exactly? Or should I say against who?
His hot streak coincides with the easiest stretch of the season.

Hornets, Pelicans, Sixers and Raptors are blatantly trying to lose.
We lost against the Lakers and Pistons and the only win against a good team was against Brunson-less Knicks...in which Devin scored 10 points.

with very good offence when the game was on the line

Hornets: L by 11, it was a 26 point game at the half.
Pelicans: W by 4, Devin was 3-9 in the second half with just 2 FTs.
Lakers: L by 16, Devin was 1-5 in the second half.
Knicks: W by 15, Devin shot 3-9 for 10 points.
Sixers: W by 8, Devin was 2-6 in the second half.
Raptors: W by 34, Devin's best game against a G-league team, was never on the line.
Pistons: L by 26, including the worst quarter of the season with Spurs shooting 2-17. I guess Devin carried it by scoring half of the team's FGs with an efficent 1-4 FG. Then he scored 13 points in 3rd quarter when Spurs which Spurs started at -26.

Please do explain when was his offense good with the game on the line.
Those are the games since Fox went down, he did jack when he had to step up.

$30M a year player ting on Raptors 905, wow.

[scott]

i'd say that's a reasonably fair assessment. Especially if you consider our coach and his genius three pg lineups and sochan as center lineups.. i get that it is an excuse, but it is the truth.

This assumes that this bad coaching somehow only applies to Devin Vassell and that a large enough proportion of his minutes are played with these bad lineups to skew ALL of the stats.

One way to test against this is to look at the On-Off splits of Vassell's most frequent lineup (Paul-Castle-Vassell-Barnes-Wembanyama) for every player:

All 5 On: +8.42
Only Vassell Off: +7.87
Only Castle Off: +7.95
Only Wemby Off: -10.21
Only CP3 Off: -16.91
Only Barnes Off: -2.73

By this, Vassell and Castle are the least consequential members of that 5-man lineup. The team doesn't skip a beat when one of them comes off the floor, but completely falls apart when Wemby, Barnes or CP3 come off the floor. Castle's a rookie. Vassell's the highest paid player in Spurs history.

[scott]

Carrying the team where exactly? Or should I say against who?
His hot streak coincides with the easiest stretch of the season.

I think more importantly, his hot streak coincides with being handed the reigns as the primary scorer. That's the role he is best at... but he's not the best on the team at that role. You've got to have talent to even be decent at that role, and there is no denying Devin is talented. The question is whether Devin is an effective 3rd/4th option, and he's not really shown he can be. As others have stated, he's bad on defense and a ball stopper on offense. Two things we don't want or need.

This fits the general perception that he's best suited as a tank commander.

[Raven]

I have no clue what you've been saying for years, and it's not really relevant to this discussion at all... unless your suggestion that DARKO incorporates your opinions into their model (spoiler alert: they don't)

The DARKO model weighs historical data by recency... so yes, it is going to pick up his improvements. His most recent game is going to be the most heavily weighted data point in the algorithm, and is going to be exponentially more heavily weighted than a game from a year ago (or from five years ago) since it's an exponential decay model.

Maybe you should read how the model works, so you don't sound like such an idiot: https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

i know how that works, thanks.

[J_Paco]

You start off with the premise that "all we do" is complain about a player ad nauseum. Posters like KobesAchilles and myself post about a lot of things. Complaining about Devin is not "all we do" - and frankly I can't think of many posters who are one-track trolls in that regard. Maybe you are overly sensitive to (deserved) criticism of Devin? Or do you suggest we just stop talking about it and hope his flaws are magically cured? Or should we just accept that we're going to have a flawed roster and pretend like it doesn't exist? I'm not sure I even understand your complaint here, because it's based on a faulty premise (that there are people who "all they do" is complain about Devin, or any other player for that matter). I admit, however, I do have a decent number of people on ignore so maybe I'm missing it.

Complaining about performances that don't meet expectations are the norm here because we've been a bad team for quite too long, not just by our own standards but by league standards in general. Only the Hornets have a longer playoff drought than us. There is simply been more bad to point out than good. Even if that weren't the case, I do agree that we (humans) tend to focus more on the bad than the good, but that's because we are trying to get better, and doing so usually entails eliminating or limiting the bad things you do. "You're only as strong as your weakest link" is an expression for good reason. Debating what could be better is also where the largest variance of opinion comes in. This forum wouldn't have much discussion if it were just all of us posting "man, that Wemby is good right?" "yeah, he sure is!" There is simply not as much to discuss when we're talking about the positives. You're right though that some of that is just human nature. It's why talk radio and 24 hour "news" channels are so popular... humans feed on disagreement and outrage, unfortunately.

I look forward to when we're better and the general tone can be more positive, but even then people will still want to discuss the areas on the team that can be improved. This may be perceived as "complaining ad nauseum" but that is what fans do.

Lighten up, man.

I mentioned no names in my post but here you are go off on a tangent.

We both aren't going to agree and you'll feel how you feel about Devin (and whoever else), but I'm free to also say as I please.

And if people take your tone and constant harping as negativity (which it is) that's their or my right.

Have a good one.

[KobesAchilles]

I gotcha Jpaco. I think part of the reason why I do complain is twofold. One, my fav team isn’t winning And I want them to win obviously. But they haven’t been for 7 seasons now and by that time I start to dissect why we aren’t winning. Bc by all accounts we should have been in the running of making the playoffs with Wemby this season. Before he got hurt. And we weren’t. So I’m looking at the team and just trying to figure out why. lack of talent? Well we have talent in comparison to other playoff teams like the Clippers or Rockets. We are too young? Well OKC is just as young and in first place by miles. Coaching? Well we have a hof coach. So why are we so bad?

And the answer I came up with isn’t those three things but rather we are just too misfit to be a winning team. Sochan is talented but offensively he doesn’t fit. Vassell is talented but offensively/defensively he doesn’t fit. I don’t mind KJ tbh. But I’m just looking to discard the players I feel don’t fit (coach too imo) and replace them with those that do fit. I understand a lot of people don’t agree with me in my stance, but that’s just how my brain is processing this year and going into next. I’m seen as kinda an idiot bc I just want a complete overhaul and I feel like that scares people and their thought process.

[LeBowen]

The team doesn't skip a beat when one of them comes off the floor, but completely falls apart when Wemby, Barnes or CP3 come off the floor. Castle's a rookie. Vassell's the highest paid player in Spurs history.

And it's actually easy to understand why, you don't need anything other than the eye test. (I'm not even joking.)

CP3 is washed, but makes everyone better by being an all-time great floor general even though he can't get to the rim anymore and is just a spot up shooter.
Barnes doesn't create for others, but has been our only elite shooter this season. He's not that great of a defender, but knows how to position himself and has legit wing size.
Devin doesn't make his teammates better unless he's hitting spot up shots he gets.

He doesn't create or get to the line enough. If his shot isn't falling, he has no value. The way he plays right now works only if he's consistently at ~40% from 3pt or if he's leading the bench unit. He's got no business being in the starting lineup.

[Raven]

Carrying the team where exactly? Or should I say against who?
His hot streak coincides with the easiest stretch of the season.

Hornets, Pelicans, Sixers and Raptors are blatantly trying to lose.
We lost against the Lakers and Pistons and the only win against a good team was against Brunson-less Knicks...in which Devin scored 10 points.



Hornets: L by 11, it was a 26 point game at the half.
Pelicans: W by 4, Devin was 3-9 in the second half with just 2 FTs.
Lakers: L by 16, Devin was 1-5 in the second half.
Knicks: W by 15, Devin shot 3-9 for 10 points.
Sixers: W by 8, Devin was 2-6 in the second half.
Raptors: W by 34, Devin's best game against a G-league team, was never on the line.
Pistons: L by 26, including the worst quarter of the season with Spurs shooting 2-17. I guess Devin carried it by scoring half of the team's FGs with an efficent 1-4 FG. Then he scored 13 points in 3rd quarter when Spurs which Spurs started at -26.

Please do explain when was his offense good with the game on the line.
Those are the games since Fox went down, he did jack when he had to step up.

$30M a year player ting on Raptors 905, wow.

for the sake of brevity: last game vs the pistons -> game on the line, devin carries the team when everyone can't hit the ocean, with stephon going for a big fat 0, then we're 20 down and we make a run..

[scott]

Lighten up, man.

I mentioned no names in my post but here you are go off on a tangent.

We both aren't going to agree and you'll feel how you feel about Devin (and whoever else), but I'm free to also say as I please.

And if people take your tone and constant harping as negativity (which it is) that's their or my right.

Have a good one.

What tangent brother? I was responding directly to what you posted. This is a discussion board. I don't think I've ever suggested you aren't free to say as you please? You have your opinions, and I have mine and that's all good. I'm allowed to respond to your opinions and you're allowed to respond to mine.

You're absolutely allowed to take my posts as negativity... I'm also allowed to rebut that, which is my right.

Sounds like you're the one who needs to lighten up.

I hope we both have a good one, tbh.