Catholic views

[Phenomanul]

I disagree...........see, that's the difference between denominations.

No biggie... If Christ is your Lord, you share the same divine access priviledge whether you choose to use it or not.

[Goliadnative]

No biggie... If Christ is your Lord, you share the same divine access priviledge whether you choose to use it or not.

You make it sound like we don't ever prayer directly to God.

Also, if you examine the words of the "Hail, Mary" for example; the first part "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." This is based on Luke 1:28 and 1:42 although the King James and other bibles translate "full of grace" as "highly favored". The second part, "Holy Mary, Mother of God," based on Luke 1:43, "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" Here, we are asking her to prayer for us. Also, by honoring Mary we are just doing what Luke 1:48 says to do.

[johnsmith]

No biggie... If Christ is your Lord, you share the same divine access priviledge whether you choose to use it or not.

Agreed, and if Christ is your lord, regardless of your denomination, who really gives a how you worship? That's just my opinion.

[Phenomanul]

You make it sound like we don't ever prayer directly to God.

Not the message I was trying to deliver...

More like when you do pray to Mary, you are relinquishing the priviledge by deferment....

We are to pray to the Father in Jesus' name. He is NOT too busy to hear our prayers.


Psalm 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

Psalm 140:6 I said unto the LORD, Thou art my God: hear the voice of my supplications, O LORD.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

John 14:13-14 [Jesus said] "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

John 15:16 [Jesus said] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 16:23-24 [Jesus said] And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Matthew 6:6 [Jesus] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Also, if you examine the words of the "Hail, Mary" for example; the first part "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." This is based on Luke 1:28 and 1:42 although the King James and other bibles translate "full of grace" as "highly favored". The second part, "Holy Mary, Mother of God," based on Luke 1:43, "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" Here, we are asking her to prayer for us. Also, by honoring Mary we are just doing what Luke 1:48 says to do.

Says to do??? In what context?.... doesn't Luke also say that Mary also recognizes that JESUS was her Savior as well (Luke 1:47)... If she needed a Savior, she needed remission of her sins just like the rest of us. She found favor in the eyes of GOD - not an easy task, no less. That doesn't mean I need to, or should feel compelled to pray to her.


Three questions then:

IS MARY OUR INTERCESSOR?

No, I don't believe so; the Bible says that Jesus is our Intercessor.


Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The Bible also states the Holy Spirit is interceding for us:


Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.


IS MARY CO-MEDIATOR?

No. The Bible says that Jesus is our Mediator. Scripturally speaking, Jesus is the ONLY Mediator.


1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


IS MARY CO-REDEEMER?

No. The Bible clearly states that there is no Savior but the Lord. Nowhere in Scripture does it remotely suggest that Mary is co-redemptrix. God deserves all praise! There is no redeemer but the Lord. GOD will not share His glory with another....


Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

us 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Philemon 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


And again, for re-emphasis...

Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary, herself, acknowledged God as her Savior. Should not we do the same? We are to worship the Lord and Him only.

In the book of Revelation we have John, the Apostle, wanting to worship an angel and here is what is said:


Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship GOD: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Note: some references were looked up online, but I believe them all to be King James Version.

[101A]

Note: some references were looked up online, but I believe them all to be King James Version.

Very good read.

I would have thought you to be an NIV man.

[Goliadnative]

I said honor her not worship her. As the King James Bible says, Luke 1:48 "48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

[Phenomanul]

I said honor her not worship her. As the King James Bible says, Luke 1:48 "48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

You have made the distinction...

Many in Mexico or other Latin American countries fail to do so.... their priests and bishops... and archbishops fail to do so... many in the past failed to draw that distinction between.... 'honor' and 'worship'.

[101A]

You have made the distinction...

Many in Mexico or other Latin American countries fail to do so.... their priests and bishops... and archbishops fail to do so... many in the past failed to draw that distinction between.... 'honor' and 'worship'.

As a practicing Catholic for so many years, I have to agree with Phenomanu here.

It is also Catholic doctrine now that Mary was also immaculately conceived, is it not? The Marianists certainly have exerted much influence on the Church over the past couple of centuries.

[Guru of Nothing]

Blinded by the Light

[smeagol]

Protestants believe "Saved by grace not by acts". Catholics, as a rule, do not.

"Saved by faith alone" is not in the Bible, except in Lutheran Bibles where Luther himself changed Rom 3:28 to read: "man is justified by faith [alone] apart from works of the Law". As a Lutheran yourself, where you aware of this?


Catholics believe you are saved by faith and works. Both, not simply one because it suits a particular theology.

Catholics believe in praying to (not worshiping) Mary, other Saints, and even dead relatives, for intercession. Most Protestants do not.

Praying for the dead is part of the Bible, at least the Catholic Bible.

I personally believe that the Catholic Church could do well to focus more on the bible.

Catholics focus on the Bible as much as one should focus on it. They do not worship the Bible, because they know the Catholic Church came before the Bible and that for three hundred years, Christians had no Bible to base their beliefs on and had to rely on the Catholic Church for guidance. And now that there is a Bible, it should be no different.

It is actually thanks to the Catholic Church you have a Bible at all. The Catholic Church put the Bible together in the IV century AD. It was the Catholic Church who decided which books where inspired and which were not, in a time where, aside from the Gospels, Acts and some of Paul's letters, all other book that ended in the New Testament were not accepted by everybody as inspired. Moreover, there were other books that were considered inspired and read in Churches throughout the ancient world on Sundays.

And it was the Catholic monks who took care of the ancient copies of the Bible, such as the ancient Codex found in the Vatican, Paris and London, and who copied them through the ages in order for you and me to be able to read it nowadays.

that 2 thousand years of tradition have lead them slightly a-stray from the basic premise of what Jesus came and did for us all.

No it hasn't. As I said before, the Bible did not exist for almost 400 years. In those first years of Christianiy, the Word of the Lord was transmited oraly. Four inspired men decided to put down in written words what the Lord had done when he was among us. But they never said this was meant to be the complete works of Jesus on Earth. As a matter of fact, John said they weren't, because no book could contain all the things Jesus said and did while on his time on Earth.

Therefore, tradition came before the written word. And this tradition was kept within the Catholic Church, and passed down from generation to generation.

One more thing, in the basic dogmas of its religion, Catholicism does not deviate one inch from what the Bible says. It's much less important things, such as the Virgin's Assention, where Dogma cannot be founded in the Bible. This is where Catholics look for tradition as there only justification. But this does not happen often.

[smeagol]

A vow that was not needed, called for, required or requested.

Paul is celibate and encouarages those men who lead congregations to be celibate too. What more do you need in order to accept this tradition which is rooted in the Bible?

The truth is celibacy was held by many priests in the Church throughout the centuries and it became so popular that by the XII or XIII century it was insituted for all Roman Catholics priests as a requirement.

There is nothing wrong with celibacy. It is not for everybody and it's a gift of God.

Simply a 'sacrifice' that was ins uted by men that then turned to tradition.

I can argue with you that Paul implicitly ins ued it, but somehow I can see you not accepting it.

How will someone who is neither a father or a husband relate to the problems of his congregation?

How can a married man devote 100% of its time to its congregation when he has to take care of something as precious as his wife and children?

This doctrine hurts more than it helps.

No it doesn't. It is simply misinterpreted and used by anti-Catholics to bash Catholics. This topic will undoubtedly appear on every anti-Catholic book or in any discussion on why Catholicism is wrong.

The central authority in the Church should be none other than the Head of the Church itself... i.e. Jesus Christ.

The Head of the Church or Earth is the Pope. Jesus himself ins uted Peter as the first Pope. But we have had a long discussion on this topic and none convinced the other.

[Phenomanul]

I know we have had our theological interchanges in the past... so you know that I respect you as a person. Having said that....

Catholics focus on the Bible as much as one should focus on it. They do not worship the Bible, because they know the Catholic Church came before the Bible and that for three hundred years, Christians had no Bible to base their beliefs on and had to rely on the Catholic Church for guidance. And now that there is a Bible, it should be no different.

It is actually thanks to the Catholic Church you have a Bible at all. The Catholic Church put the Bible together in the IV century AD. It was the Catholic Church who decided which books where inspired and which were not, in a time where, aside from the Gospels, Acts and some of Paul's letters, all other book that ended in the New Testament were not accepted by everybody as inspired. Moreover, there were other books that were considered inspired and read in Churches throughout the ancient world on Sundays.

And it was the Catholic monks who took care of the ancient copies of the Bible, such as the ancient Codex found in the Vatican, Paris and London, and who copied them through the ages in order for you and me to be able to read it nowadays.

I would like to think that we owe our gra ude to GOD for the Bible's existence... That He not only left us the Holy Spirit as a guide and comforter but that He left us His Word.

Christians in the Catholic Church were used as instruments and vessels to discern what GOD wanted in the Bible... and to 'weed out the shaft'.... so to speak. The Catholic Church in and of itself deserves no glory for this.

No it hasn't. As I said before, the Bible did not exist for almost 400 years. In those first years of Christianiy, the Word of the Lord was transmited oraly. Four inspired men decided to put down in written words what the Lord had done when he was among us. But they never said this was meant to be the complete works of Jesus on Earth. As a matter of fact, John said they weren't, because no book could contain all the things Jesus said and did while on his time on Earth.

A large part of the Bible, much of the 'Old Testament,' was written by Hebrews/Jews, well before the time of JESUS... And yet JESUS Himself is a central theme in the 'Old Testament'. The Will of GOD allowed for the Revelation of His Character to withstand the test of time through writings that were finally compiled into what we know as The Bible...

Therefore, tradition came before the written word. And this tradition was kept within the Catholic Church, and passed down from generation to generation.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD.

The Word... The Revelation of GOD through JESUS has always been around. He is more important than tradition. He supercedes it. Was it not the Pharisees' traditions that JESUS rebuked?

One more thing, in the basic dogmas of its religion, Catholicism does not deviate one inch from what the Bible says. It's much less important things, such as the Virgin's Ascension, where Dogma cannot be founded in the Bible. This is where Catholics look for tradition as their only justification. But this does not happen often.

It happens more often than you think.... but again, as long as our focus remains on Christ. He will be able to guide us via the Holy Spirit... the Holy Spirit should then help us discern what teachings don't fall in line with GOD's Word or GOD's character... by placing the importance of tradition above GOD's Word, however, one ends up walking a very fine line.

[smeagol]

Chapter and verse, please.

I thought you were well versed in the Bible.

Matthew 16-19, more especifically Matthew 16:18

Martin Luther was a Catholic priest and was fed up with the corruption and decidedly un-Christian behavior of the Church; Including the Pope; we reap what we sow.

Martin Luther wanted to reinterpret religion and came up with a new theology. He changed parts of the Bible (as I have mentioned on another post) and even wanted to eliminate an entire epistle (the Epistle of James), which he called the "Epistle of Staws". He also disliked the Book of Revelations.

aaahhhh; there's the rub.

No rub, as I said before, tradition preceeds the Bible; the Catholic Church preceeds the Bible. Therefore, it only makes sense that Catholicism holds these traditions dear.

But as I said before, all important Catholic dogmas are rooted in the Bible.

[scott]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned (I only read the first handful of posts) but to be married in the Catholic church, both the husband and wife need to be Catholic (either life long or by conversion).

[Phenomanul]

Paul is celibate and encouarages those men who lead congregations to be celibate too. What more do you need in order to accept this tradition which is rooted in the Bible?

The truth is celibacy was held by many priests in the Church throughout the centuries and it became so popular that by the XII or XIII century it was insituted for all Roman Catholics priests as a requirement.

There is nothing wrong with celibacy. It is not for everybody and it's a gift of God.

No there isn't... and yes it is a gift of GOD....

It shouldn't be stipulated as a requirement however when Christ himself doesn't even mention it.

Hebrew priests were married and had children....
Peter had a wife...
Some of the other apostles were also married...

I can argue with you that Paul implicitly ins ued it, but somehow I can see you not accepting it.

If it's not in the Bible... no.

How can a married man devote 100% of its time to its congregation when he has to take care of something as precious as his wife and children?

This is a far more manageable 'problem'... and not drawn out to the extreme you make it out to be with your 100%.

My father has managed his family fairly well I would say... but I guess my view would be biased anyway...

Leading a household to produce three college graduates... all on scholarships, with limited resources... I consider my father a shining example every which way despite his flaws. But again, all glory be to GOD for his guidance, provision, blessings and most importantly for His Love...

No it doesn't. It is simply misinterpreted and used by anti-Catholics to bash Catholics. This topic will undoubtedly appear on every anti-Catholic book or in any discussion on why Catholicism is wrong.

I'm not attacking the church simply by disagreeing with one of its practices....

The Head of the Church on Earth is the Pope. Jesus himself ins uted Peter as the first Pope. But we have had a long discussion on this topic and none convinced the other.

You're right that I disagree.... The Head of the Church is Christ - not any sinful man.

[smeagol]

I know we have had our theological interchanges in the past... so you know that I respect you as a person.

And I respect you . . . although you had a different name when we debated the last time

I would like to think that we owe our gra ude to GOD for the Bible's existence... That He not only left us the Holy Spirit as a guide and comforter but that He left us His Word.

Of course we do. God, through Jesus, ins uted the Catholic Chruch precisely for that reason. "And the Gates of will not prevail against it". And she will be free of error.

This same Church, which Jesus himself ins uted, is the one you deny.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD.

The Word... The Revelation of GOD through JESUS has always been around. He is more important than tradition.

Of course Jesus existed before humanity and therefore before tradition. That has nothing to with the fact that for almost 400 years humanity had no Bible to rely on. But they were Christians, weren't they? And some of them were saved, even if they had no "guide", weren't they?

Well, if there was no Bible, then who has their "guide"? According to Bible Christians, only the Bible contains the teachings of the Lord. This is incomplete information. The Bible, under the interpretation of the Catholic Church, plus the traditions that came down from Jesus Christ, which were not written down on paper, but maintined by the Catholic Church, are the guide to salvation.


Tradition is what Christians went by in 100 AD. Tradition and the Bible is what Catholics went by in 600 AD and this is what they go by nowadays.

Was it not the Pharisees' traditions that JESUS rebuked?

Tradition of men. Catholics traditions are rooted in Christ (and 99.999% are rooted in the Bible).

It happens more often than you think....

Examples please.

Christ will be able to guide us via the Holy Spirit... the Holy Spirit should then help us discern what teachings don't fall in line with GOD's Word or GOD's character...

If the Holy Spirit guides Protestants to the truth by private interpretation of the Bible, how come there are 20,000 Protestant denominations, all claiming to posses the truth and all different among themselves? The truth must be only one.

by placing the importance of tradition above GOD's Word, however, one ends up walking a very fine line.

Not if those traditions come from Jesus himself.

[Guru of Nothing]

Blinded by the light, held up like a loofa by the foreman of the night.

[smeagol]

No there isn't... and yes it is a gift of GOD....

It shouldn't be stipulated as a requirement however when Christ himself doesn't even mention it.

Hebrew priests were married and had children....
Peter had a wife...
Some of the other apostles were also married...

And Paul was celibate. And he incourages it, especially for priests. What else can I tell you?

In any case, celibacy is not a doctrine and could be changed tomorrow. Nevertheless, it makes sense.

If it's not in the Bible... no.

But there is mention of celibacy in the Bible. Read 2 Tim 2:3-4 or 1 Cor 7.

This is a far more manageable 'problem'... and not drawn out to the extreme you make it out to be with your 100%.

My father has managed his family fairly well I would say... but I guess my view would be biased anyway...

Leading a household to produce three college graduates... all on scholarships, with limited resources... I consider my father a shining example every which way despite his flaws. But again, all glory be to GOD for his guidance, provision, blessings and most importantly for His Love...

I congratuale your father. He certainly did a great job with you. But not all Protestant pastors are like your father.

You're right that I disagree.... The Head of the Church is Christ - not any sinful man.

The Head of the Church is Christ. The Head of the Church on Earth, until Christ comes back, is a sinful man called the Pope. That is the way Christ wanted it.

[smeagol]

Blinded by the light, held up like a loofa by the foreman of the night.

[scott]

The Head of the Church is Christ. The Head of the Church on Earth, until Christ comes back, is a sinful man called the Pope. That is the way Christ wanted it.

To me this is the greatest example of the flaws of Protestantism. They wish to employ a (more) literal interpretation of the bible, yet conveniently choose to ignore the part which makes their Protestantism a violation of that very bible.

[smeagol]

If the Catholic Church now believes strictly in a "Saved by Grace" doctrine, you let me know when that happened.

Why would it if Saved by Grace doctrine is not in the Bible, except the altered version by Luther.

I discussed this specifically with TWO priests not 2 and a half years ago, as my dad was on his death bed; he thought, after 60 years of Catholic worship (including St. Gerards & St. Mary's) that he might end up in because he had done bad things.

If a Catholic believes will go t because he had done bad things, he has no clue of what the Doctrines of Catholicism are.

According to my Bible, you don't end up in because you did bad things, nor do you end up in heaven because you did good ones.

According to the Bible, you are not saved by faith alone.

[smeagol]

To me this is the greatest example of the flaws of Protestantism. They wish to employ a (more) literal interpretation of the bible, yet conveniently choose to ignore the part which makes their Protestantism a violation of that very bible.

Wow, an unlikely ally in Scott?

[smeagol]

If it's not gospel, it ought not be taught that it is so. Catholic churches (I was an active, practicing Catholic for 32 years of my life - and I have sent my children to Catholic School; I'm not speaking from anything other than experience), don't explain what IS in the bible, and what is not. Catholics are taught to follow ALL teachings, without ever explaining that, hey, some HUMAN BEING made some of this up (albeit with the best of intentions, usually), and it isn't actually the word of the Son of Man.

Please enumerate the Catholic Doctrines that are not rooted in the Bible.

[smeagol]

You forgot the Eastern Orthodox.

True until the Great Schism

[smeagol]

Being a Catholic, I can honestly answer this question with a resounding "I have no ing clue". It's one of the many things I disagree with the catholic church about, but I'm still catholic and will continue to be.

If you have no clue, read about it. It is always good to be able to defend your Faith.

I have given some reasons why celibacy is good.