I don't think much of what you wrote there is correct. As I understand it, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception says that Mary was not tainted by original sin, not that she was born from a virgin.
The doctrine of Mary's Assumption as I understand it says that she did in fact die, but that her body was assumed into heaven. This doctrine is meant to explain why there are no relics of her remains.
Reading back through the patriarchs, at least some of them appear sympathetic to one or both of those positions, though I could not find anything that extended their positions to the level of doctrine.
Neither of these doctrines have support in Scripture, and doctrinally I have problems with both of them.
Nope Immaculate Conception does say that Mary was of Virgin Birth - Catholics "have" to believe this.
Yes, she did die, she was "assumed" - meaning taken up by god, body and soul, into heaven. As opposed to Jesus who "Ascended" into Heaven, ostensibly of his own power.
Frankly, so does the Catholic Church.
Actually, I'm a Catholic, and I don't "have" to believe it.
From catholic.com:
"Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain."
(bolded mine)
No, that is not what it says. Mary was born free of original sin. She was NOT a virgin birth.
Not by me, big guy...
Preach the Gospel continually. If necessary, use words. -- St. Francis of Assisi
Keep carrying on...
Thanks ES, (and Travis) - I was wrong about what the church teaches. I have tried to make sense of the actual pronouncement; but apparently there is some disagreement w/in the church as this link indicates:
http://www.catholicplanet.com/virgin/index.htm
...and the headmaster at my children's school (a devout Opus Dei Catholic), misrepresented the doctrine to me: mea culpa.
No original sin is doctrine; Virgin Birth of the Virgin is whether you choose to believe it; got it.
(hope I'm right about the assumption)
I think you guys have made it clear that 101A is effectively, "talking out of his ass".
No, 101A made an honest mistake based upon wrong information he received. He, at least, is trying to have a serious discussion, rather than taking potshots from the sidelines.
See Potshots.............I didn't start this.
I have no problems letting others who can speak better than I, such as Travis & Smeagol, handle this topic. They do a much better job than I can.
I have no problems letting others who can speak better than I, such as Travis & Smeagol, handle this topic. They do a much better job than I can.
See, same thing I said. So again, what's wrong with that 101A?
Joe Chalupa didn't post this at the "end" of Travis and Pheno's (relatively respectful) discussion:
That's what.My response: Who gives a ? You don't like the Catholic church, we get it
First of all, I was unaware that it mattered at which point you make a post on a chat board. Let me know about the rest of the rules so I'm never to make another mistake like that again.
Furthermore, your "that's what" thing doesn't make any sense. Jesus man, if you're going to try and insult me, at least make it somewhat logical so that a person reading it could make sense of it.
I wasn't trying to insult you, I was answering your question.First of all, I was unaware that it mattered at which point you make a post on a chat board. Let me know about the rest of the rules so I'm never to make another mistake like that again.
Furthermore, your "that's what" thing doesn't make any sense. Jesus man, if you're going to try and insult me, at least make it somewhat logical so that a person reading it could make sense of it.
Ok, so my "My response: Who gives a ? You don't like the Catholic church, we get it" is the answer to "what's wrong with letting others that are more informed then me argue the subject"?
See, that just doesn't make sense 101A.
Man, you are a ing re aren't you?
I remember going through the whole 'evidence of salavation' vs. 'element of salvation' argument in that other thread with Smeagol. Apparently though, the whole concept went by the wayside... because again, the Catholic Church never errs. And so any argument that goes against the teaching of the Catechism gets disqualified immediately.
The phrase in James 2 - "faith without works is dead" - suggests in modern day terms that one must "walk the talk" - nothing else. The Book of Ephesians is crystal clear that salvation is a 'gift from GOD' because no matter how perfect we managed to be, one blemish alone would be enough to merit death -- an eternal separation from GOD. How then can humans claim to attain salvation despite our imperfect nature? We can't. GOD has given us the Gift of Salvation through Christ Jesus -- for those who are willing to accept it... Faith in GOD is consequently manifested in our lives if our faith is authentic. Works then become 'evidence' of the change in our nature.
As an aside: Satan's minions all acknowledge Christ's Divine supremacy... yet they don't serve Christ as their LORD -- there is a big difference in knowing who is LORD and serving Christ as LORD.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 10-24-2006 at 08:23 AM.
Only in matters of Faith and Morals.
Only if they show signs of being one. Unfortunately, anti-Catholicism is deeply embedded in the Protestant culture here in the US. Sadly, there are hundreds of books and websites that push the anti-catholic agenda. And for many Protestants, anti-Catholic rhetoric is all they hear since birth.
I fail to see the arrogance you speak about. Is it because it claims to be infallible in matters of faith and morals? Well, as I said many times, it’s the way we Catholics interpret the Bible. At the end of the day, it’s a matter of interpretation, not arrogance. I have supported the catholic point of view in this matter with quotes from within and outside the Bible, I can do it again if you so desire.
It’s your choice. I said this before: these discussions are enriching to me and make me think deeply about my Faith. It also teaches me about other peoples’ faith.
The message is simple. What I said is that the Catholic Theology is somewhat complicated. The Catholic Church does not complicate the message.
This is not a happy analogy. Don’t be surprised if other Catholics might think you are anti-Catholic when you give us this kind of slap in the face.
. . . as opposed to us Catholics who do not follow Christ and simply follow what the RCC says? Again, not sure what you mean here.
I cannot opine on this due to ignorance. All I know this is an issue with all religions: Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam . . . they all claim there is no salvation outside their religion.
Wrong. We are all sinners. You, me and the Popes. But you know this.
If your point is that the Church has been intolerant in the past, you have a point.
You bring good points.
Your discussion was not only with Travis
Peace be with you too, H.
What a coincidence.
Last edited by Guru of Nothing; 10-23-2006 at 08:54 PM.
Watch the video
Yeah he was blinded by the light
Cut loose like a deuce another runner in the night
-The Boss
You will feel silly.
Seriously, if a picture is worth a thousand words, this video is worth a million words.
Why are you unwilling? and why is it a good thing?
It has long been my perception that those in most need of attacking the faith of others do so out of their own insecurities.
I think you would actually find that many of the people dedicated to Christ in this world-- in terms of service and time spent doing his mission on earth-- are devout Catholics-- you know the ones who go to Church every day without fail and pray and pray on end about everything and for everyone. The little old ladies like my grandmother who still gave financially to her Church in her 80's out of her Social Security checks while she lived a very humble existence.
You realize that when you attack the long held faith of people- you are not only attacking them, but often times the very fabric of their family- that which has held them together in times of pain and loss. If your religious faith means so much to you then have respect for just how much other's faith means to them. I am grateful for my faith and for the Marianists who have long been enormously generous to my family and whose support meant a great deal to my family in our recent time of loss.
Nevertheless, I read the "other" thread one more time and there you make many more different statements such as the one above.
I assume you are getting to know the RCC better.
Don't be a hater... I've put in countless hours of studyand then some.
When have I been dismissive of any of your serious posts? Your 'drive-by' posts maybe... but that's just a common sense 'troll-avoidance' tactic...
Anyway
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
