63 Years Ago

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

D-Day.

Normandy, France.

Godspeed, vets.

[xrayzebra]

And our President said the following prayer on public radio.
Think it could happen today

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far. And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer: Almighty God: our sons, pride of our Nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity. Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph. They will be sore tried, by night and by day without rest - until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war. For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and good will among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom. And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters and brothers of brave men overseas -- whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice. Many people have urged that I call the Nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a countenance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces. And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be. And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogancies. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil. Thy will be done, Almighty God. Amen.

I want all our folks on this forum to remember on what our
country was based. Not secularism as some would tell you.
Separation of church and country is only in the minds of those
who wish to deny the truth of our founding.

Thank God we had people with the strength and will
power to face the enemy and the citizens to support
these brave men. I just wonder where they have
gone.

If we fail in Iraq let me assure you we are doomed to
be relegated to a third world nations fate. No country
will hesitate to attack us. They will know we have no
will to protect that which made us great.

[Nbadan]

I want all our folks on this forum to remember on what our
country was based. Not secularism as some would tell you.
Separation of church and country is only in the minds of those
who wish to deny the truth of our founding.

WTF?!?

George Washington and James Madison leaned toward deism.
Tom Paine was a deist
Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson were deists

[xrayzebra]

Dan, I want you to read the address that
George Washington gave upon being elected
President. And would you please advise me
how many times he refers to Christian
principles.

It's okay, I understand, I accept you apology.

Fellow-Citizens of the Senate and of the House of Representatives:

AMONG the vicissitudes incident to life no event could have filled me with greater anxieties than that of which the notification was transmitted by your order, and received on the 14th day of the present month. On the one hand, I was summoned by my country, whose voice I can never hear but with veneration and love, from a retreat which I had chosen with the fondest predilection, and, in my flattering hopes, with an immutable decision, as the asylum of my declining years—a retreat which was rendered every day more necessary as well as more dear to me by the addition of habit to inclination, and of frequent interruptions in my health to the gradual waste committed on it by time. On the other hand, the magnitude and difficulty of the trust to which the voice of my country called me, being sufficient to awaken in the wisest and most experienced of her citizens a distrustful scrutiny into his qualifications, could not but overwhelm with despondence one who (inheriting inferior endowments from nature and unpracticed in the duties of civil administration) ought to be peculiarly conscious of his own deficiencies. In this conflict of emotions all I dare aver is that it has been my faithful study to collect my duty from a just appreciation of every cir stance by which it might be affected. All I dare hope is that if, in executing this task, I have been too much swayed by a grateful remembrance of former instances, or by an affectionate sensibility to this transcendent proof of the confidence of my fellow-citizens, and have thence too little consulted my incapacity as well as disinclination for the weighty and untried cares before me, my error will be palliated by the motives which mislead me, and its consequences be judged by my country with some share of the partiality in which they originated.
Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government ins uted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established without some return of pious gra ude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more au iously commence.
By the article establishing the executive department it is made the duty of the President "to recommend to your consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient." The cir stances under which I now meet you will acquit me from entering into that subject further than to refer to the great cons utional charter under which you are assembled, and which, in defining your powers, designates the objects to which your attention is to be given. It will be more consistent with those cir stances, and far more congenial with the feelings which actuate me, to subs ute, in place of a recommendation of particular measures, the tribute that is due to the talents, the rec ude, and the patriotism which adorn the characters selected to devise and adopt them. In these honorable qualifications I behold the surest pledges that as on one side no local prejudices or attachments, no separate views nor party animosities, will misdirect the comprehensive and equal eye which ought to watch over this great assemblage of communities and interests, so, on another, that the foundation of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality, and the preeminence of free government be exemplified by all the attributes which can win the affections of its citizens and command the respect of the world. I dwell on this prospect with every satisfaction which an ardent love for my country can inspire, since there is no truth more thoroughly established than that there exists in the economy and course of nature an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness; between duty and advantage; between the genuine maxims of an honest and magnanimous policy and the solid rewards of public prosperity and felicity; since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered, perhaps, as deeply, as finally, staked on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people. 3
Besides the ordinary objects submitted to your care, it will remain with your judgment to decide how far an exercise of the occasional power delegated by the fifth article of the Cons ution is rendered expedient at the present juncture by the nature of objections which have been urged against the system, or by the degree of inquietude which has given birth to them. Instead of undertaking particular recommendations on this subject, in which I could be guided by no lights derived from official opportunities, I shall again give way to my entire confidence in your discernment and pursuit of the public good; for I assure myself that whilst you carefully avoid every alteration which might endanger the benefits of an united and effective government, or which ought to await the future lessons of experience, a reverence for the characteristic rights of freemen and a regard for the public harmony will sufficiently influence your deliberations on the question how far the former can be impregnably fortified or the latter be safely and advantageously promoted. 4
To the foregoing observations I have one to add, which will be most properly addressed to the House of Representatives. It concerns myself, and will therefore be as brief as possible. When I was first honored with a call into the service of my country, then on the eve of an arduous struggle for its liberties, the light in which I contemplated my duty required that I should renounce every pecuniary compensation. From this resolution I have in no instance departed; and being still under the impressions which produced it, I must decline as inapplicable to myself any share in the personal emoluments which may be indispensably included in a permanent provision for the executive department, and must accordingly pray that the pecuniary estimates for the station in which I am placed may during my continuance in it be limited to such actual expenditures as the public good may be thought to require. 5
Having thus imparted to you my sentiments as they have been awakened by the occasion which brings us together, I shall take my present leave; but not without resorting once more to the benign Parent of the Human Race in humble supplication that, since He has been pleased to favor the American people with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquillity, and dispositions for deciding with unparalleled unanimity on a form of government for the security of their union and the advancement of their happiness, so His divine blessing may be equally con uous in the enlarged views, the temperate consultations, and the wise measures on which the success of this Government must depend.

I have highlighted just a few examples.

[boutons_]

"Separation of church and country"

what a dumb . Did XZ ever answer the question whether he was born dumb or did a military career make him this dumb.

Nobody's tryig to stop any individual in this "country" from practicing their religion

Separation of church and STATE is "ONLY" in the text of the US Cons ution, which your dumb , regressive, knee-jerk ideology forbids you to understand.

[xrayzebra]

"Separation of church and country"

what a dumb . Did XZ ever answer the question whether he was born dumb or did a military career make him this dumb.

Nobody's tryig to stop any individual in this "country" from practicing their religion

Separation of church and STATE is "ONLY" in the text of the US Cons ution, which your dumb , regressive, knee-jerk ideology forbids you to understand.

You need to go back and read the cons ution. It says
the Government shall not establish a religion.

Amendment one to the Cons ution says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to pe ion the government for a redress of grievances."

Of course it is written without an profanity so you may
have a hard time understanding the language.

[Duff McCartney]

It's scary how many people in this country hate the Middle East, yet want us to be a theocracy just like them.

[Yonivore]

It's scary how many people in this country hate the Middle East, yet want us to be a theocracy just like them.

Funny, I don't know anyone who wants this country to be like any Middle Eastern country.

[Phenomanul]

Funny, I don't know anyone who wants this country to be like any Middle Eastern country.

That's only because those who feel this way have a hard time differentiating the principles involved. They believe all religions are the same. Or worse, that Christianity is the worst one of all.

With regards to the principles I alluded to above - paraphrased with some exaggeration involved but the point is still the same.


Christian: If your brother offends you and smacks you in the face - turn the other cheek.

Muslim: If your brother offends you, return the hostility towards him ten fold.


Christian: "And this is eternal life, that they know you—the only true God."

Muslim: Eternal life is being served in heaven by 99 virgins...


Christian: Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Muslim: If your neighbor is not like you - don't deal with them.


Christian: Render to Caesar what is Caesar's, render to GOD what is GOD's.

Muslim: The State is the Church, the Church is the State.


And somehow Christians are compared to muslims? The only thing we have in common is montheism.

[BradLohaus]

Separation of church and STATE is "ONLY" in the text of the US Cons ution, which your dumb , regressive, knee-jerk ideology forbids you to understand.

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Cons ution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to popular and political discussion of the concept, including criticism that it overstates the limits created under the Cons ution.

[boutons_]

"criticism"

.... anonymous, as always.

Sorta like dubya setting up a straw with "some say that ...."

The corruption of the (Catholic) Church amalgamated with royalty and aristrocracy through the Dark Ages to suppress the bottom of society and perpetuate the concentratio of wealth and power inthe Church and state is what created and inspired Protestants to protest.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to pe ion the Government for a redress of grievances."

the ultra-conservative radicals / strict constructionists love to re-construct this First
as not disallowing the state to get involved in promoting/financing (exclusively) "Christian" religion.

[PixelPusher]

That's only because those who feel this way have a hard time differentiating the principles involved. They believe all religions are the same. Or worse, that Christianity is the worst one of all.

With regards to the principles I alluded to above - paraphrased with some exaggeration involved but the point is still the same.


Christian: If your brother offends you and smacks you in the face - turn the other cheek.

Muslim: If your brother offends you, return the hostility towards him ten fold.


Christian: "And this is eternal life, that they know you—the only true God."

Muslim: Eternal life is being served in heaven by 99 virgins...


Christian: Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Muslim: If your neighbor is not like you - don't deal with them.


Christian: Render to Caesar what is Caesar's, render to GOD what is GOD's.

Muslim: The State is the Church, the Church is the State.


And somehow Christians are compared to muslims? The only thing we have in common is montheism.

Not that i hold any more regard for Islam than I do Christianity, but would you care to qualify your "muslim" statements with passages in the Koran?

[clambake]

C'mon Phenom, give us a little religious smackdown, and differentiate the basis of the opposing cults foundation. Tell us how the Gods spar. They all share equal rights to exist in the human mind. When will one God conquer the others?

[Phenomanul]

C'mon Phenom, give us a little religious smackdown, and differentiate the basis of the opposing cults foundation. Tell us how the Gods spar. They all share equal rights to exist in the human mind. When will one God conquer the others?

I very well could...


But........


You really don't care to hear.... Your defensive, sarcastic at ude is the manifestation of your ignorant facade. Spare me the mockery.

[BradLohaus]

"criticism"

.... anonymous, as always.

Sorta like dubya setting up a straw with "some say that ...."

Just to be clear, that paragraph isn't my words, I just cut and pasted the 2nd paragraph of the wiki artilce on "Separation of Church and State". I went there to see exactly who Jefferson wrote his letter to, because I couldn't remember. Also, the article only mentions that criticism exists; it doesn't comment on the validity of it. And I can't see how someone could debate the existence of the criticism.

the ultra-conservative radicals / strict constructionists love to re-construct this First as not disallowing the state to get involved in promoting/financing (exclusively) "Christian" religion.

Strict cons utionalists love to reconstruct...

People who paraphrase this part of the 1st amendment as "the separation of church and state" are the ones who are doing the reconstructing. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof''

That's the U.S. congress, obviously. So the US Congress can't establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise of a religion. How that prevents a state from doing something like, say, placing the 10 commandments on the lawn of its capitol is beyond me. THAT is reconstructing.

Speaking of original intent

D-Day.

Normandy, France.

Godspeed, vets.

[Phenomanul]

Not that i hold any more regard for Islam than I do Christianity, but would you care to qualify your "muslim" statements with passages in the Koran?

I will when I find the essay... I have it somewhere at church...


In the mean time I will expound on the basic difference.

Christianity is based on a personal relationship with GOD - the restoration of a divinely ordained connection to the Father that was once severed by sin. That divide was bridged via Christ's atoning and wholly subs utionary sacrifice. Acceptance of GOD's gift to humanity is the only way of avoiding eternal separation from GOD, and it transforms and compels Christians to serve others with acts of selflessness, kindness, compassion, generosity, genuine love, and benevolence - acts that reflect GOD's grace, and embody His ideals.

Islam on the other hand is based entirely on a fear of GOD. Unlike Christianity, there is no clear defined and established path to 'Allah' - which is why the allure of 'jihads' is so popular among the young islamic male crowd (kind of like a lazy get-rich-quick scheme).

Islam itself has undergone changes that have resulted in numerous branches within a religion that may seem strikingly genous from the outside. The differences between Shiites and Sunnis, however, have resulted in conflicts to this day. There is one aspect of Islam overall that has neither been reformed/ modified or been the subject of open debate within Islamic societies. That aspect is the treatment of non-Muslims by a Muslim society. And it is that very aspect that produces strife and conflict to this day.

It is the culture of intolerance and hate for the non-Muslim world that is taught to young minds in Madarassas that is cause for concern. Such intolerance strikes at the heart of individual liberty and freedom as understood in the rest of the world. THAT is the fundamental difference between Islam and other ideologies. The espousal of hate and intolerance and justification of violence to go along with that hate. That such acts are seen as glorified paths to 'paradise' by a large chunk of the Islamic world is highly concerning...


edit: Having said this I would add that the American Muslim is slightly more tolerant.

[PixelPusher]

Muslim: If your brother offends you, return the hostility towards him ten fold.

Muslim: If your neighbor is not like you - don't deal with them.

Muslims were far kinder to their Jewish and Eastern Orthodox Christian neighbors than Catholics and Protestants were for many centuries.
Peoples of the Book

Muslim: The State is the Church, the Church is the State.

And somehow Christians are compared to muslims? The only thing we have in common is montheism.

Only if you choose to remain myopic.

[boutons_]

"How that prevents a state from doing something like, say, placing the 10 commandments on the lawn of its capitol is beyond me."

Holy , you're stupid. States can't contravene federal laws.

[Phenomanul]

Muslims were far kinder to their Jewish and Eastern Orthodox Christian neighbors than Catholics and Protestants were for many centuries.
Peoples of the Book




Only if you choose to remain myopic.

Then please expound on how those ideals are taught in the Bible...

All you've shown were pictures of power hungry men... Power equals force. Power is highly intoxicating and blinding. Faith on the other hand does not require power. To use power and 'religion' together can only be to fufill human lust, thus it is no longer about God but about man. Jesus had great power but did not use His power to spread His beliefs. For that matter... GOD has the ultimate power, yet even HE does not use it for religious purposes (HE has given us free will to believe what we want). Thus those that use power for religious purposes have placed themselves above GOD. Don't confuse Spirituality with Religion (or its influence in Politics) - they are two completely different things.

[Phenomanul]

Good night I'm going to bed.

[PixelPusher]

Then please expound on how those ideals are taught in the Bible...

Must i go through the drudgery of copying/pasting passages from the bible where god cursed this or that tribe, or gets pissed at King Saul for leaving some choice oxen alive after God commanded him to slaughter everyone and everything, or the various passages used by Confederate Christians to justify slavery? I know, I know...Jesus came along and changed all that Old Testament angst, so it's all good.

Of course, it took about 17 centuries before a couple of Age of Enlightenment hippies like Franklin, Jefferson and Madison came along and decided to take Jesus's "Render unto Caesar" admonition seriously enough to separate the power of the state from the power of the church.

[BradLohaus]

"How that prevents a state from doing something like, say, placing the 10 commandments on the lawn of its capitol is beyond me."

Holy , you're stupid. States can't contravene federal laws.

The federal law (in the 1st amendment) is that the U.S. Congress can't do two things:
1.) Establish a religion
2.) Prohibit the free exercise of a religion

How does the placement of the 10 commandments on the lawn of the Texas state capitol violate either of those 2 restrictions on the US congress? There is no mention of restrictions on state legislatures in the amendment!

[Wild Cobra]

The federal law (in the 1st amendment) is that the U.S. Congress can't do two things:
1.) Establish a religion
2.) Prohibit the free exercise of a religion

How does the placement of the 10 commandments on the lawn of the Texas state capitol violate either of those 2 restrictions on the US congress? There is no mention of restrictions on state legislatures in the amendment!

Agreed.

It really baffles me how so many people don't get the simple plain text of the cons ution.

Government is not suppose to infringe upon religion. It states nothing about religion imposing itself upon government! In fact, religion if acknowledge in nermerous places in our historical writings.

I'll bet the liberals here cannot tell us where the term "Separation of Church and State" comes from either...

They seem to believe they are mutually exclusive.

[boutons_]

"religion imposing itself upon government"

Of course, you mean "CHRISTIAN" religion imposing itself upon government, to exclusion, and probable persecution of non-Christian religions.

So you are cleary admitting that "religion imposing itself upon government" is your objective? Monica Goodling and 150 other imcompetent duds from Liberty University have been "imposed" by the Repugs on US govt.

[xrayzebra]

"How that prevents a state from doing something like, say, placing the 10 commandments on the lawn of its capitol is beyond me."

Holy , you're stupid. States can't contravene federal laws.

Once again you show your ignorance.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Cons ution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people.

Federal laws have been struck down, like no gun within
a school zone, because they were uncons utional.