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ok, I hope they die from bad kharma, they're probably gay, if they touch me I'll kill them.The Bush water carriers are welcome to heap their disingenuous scorn upon these guys (unpatriotic, traitors, appeasers, cowards, etc.).
The Bush water carriers are welcome to heap their disingenuous scorn upon these guys (unpatriotic, traitors, appeasers, cowards, etc.).Fort Hunt's Quiet Men break silence on WWII
Interrogators Fought 'Battle of Wits'
By Petula Dvorak
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, October 6, 2007; Page A01
For six decades, they held their silence.
The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.
When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects.
Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.
"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.
Blunt criticism of modern enemy interrogations was a common refrain at the ceremonies held beside the Potomac River near Alexandria. Across the river, President Bush defended his administration's methods of detaining and questioning terrorism suspects during an Oval Office appearance.
Several of the veterans, all men in their 80s and 90s, denounced the controversial techniques. And when the time came for them to accept honors from the Army's Freedom Team Salute, one veteran refused, citing his opposition to the war in Iraq and procedures that have been used at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
"I feel like the military is using us to say, 'We did spooky stuff then, so it's okay to do it now,' " said Arno Mayer, 81, a professor of European history at Princeton University.
When Peter Weiss, 82, went up to receive his award, he commandeered the microphone and gave his piece.
"I am deeply honored to be here, but I want to make it clear that my presence here is not in support of the current war," said Weiss, chairman of the Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy and a human rights and trademark lawyer in New York City.
The veterans of P.O. Box 1142, a top-secret installation in Fairfax County that went only by its postal code name, were brought back to Fort Hunt by park rangers who are piecing together a portrait of what happened there during the war.
Nearly 4,000 prisoners of war, most of them German scientists and submariners, were brought in for questioning for days, even weeks, before their presence was reported to the Red Cross, a process that did not comply with the Geneva Conventions. Many of the interrogators were refugees from the Third Reich.
"We did it with a certain amount of respect and justice," said John Gunther Dean, 81, who became a career Foreign Service officer and ambassador to Denmark.
The interrogators had standards that remain a source of pride and honor.
"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."
Exactly what went on behind the barbed-wire fences of Fort Hunt has been a mystery that has lured amateur historians and curious neighbors for decades.
During the war, nearby residents watched buses with darkened windows roar toward the fort day and night. They couldn't have imagined that groundbreaking secrets in rocketry, microwave technology and submarine tactics were being peeled apart right on the grounds that are now a popular picnic area where moonbounces mushroom every weekend.
When Vincent Santucci arrived at the National Park Service's George Washington Memorial Parkway office as chief ranger four years ago, he asked his cultural resource specialist, Brandon Bies, to do some research so they could post signs throughout the park, explaining its history and giving it a bit more dignity.
That assignment changed dramatically when ranger Dana Dierkes was leading a tour of the park one day and someone told her about a rumored Fort Hunt veteran.
It was Fred Michel, who worked in engineering in Alexandria for 65 years, never telling his neighbors that he once faced off with prisoners and pried wartime secrets from them.
Michel directed them to other vets, and they remembered others.
Bies went from being a ranger researching mountains of topics in stacks of papers to flying across the country, camera and klieg lights in tow, to do ent the fading memories of veterans.
He, Santucci and others have spent hours trying to sharpen the focus of gauzy memories, coaxing complex details from men who swore on their generation's honor to never speak of the work they did at P.O. Box 1142.
"The National Park Service is committed to telling your story, and now it belongs to the nation," said David Vela, superintendent of the George Washington Memorial Parkway.
There is a deadline. Each day, about 1,100 World War II veterans die, said Jean Davis, spokeswoman for the U.S. Army's Freedom Team Salute program, which recognizes veterans and the parents, spouses and employers who provide support for active-duty soldiers.
By gathering at Fort Hunt yesterday, the quiet men could be saluted for the work they did so long ago.
ok, I hope they die from bad kharma, they're probably gay, if they touch me I'll kill them.The Bush water carriers are welcome to heap their disingenuous scorn upon these guys (unpatriotic, traitors, appeasers, cowards, etc.).
Money quote.....what is victory if we have lowered ourselves to the level of our enemy and along the way, made a new enemy...."During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."
Why is this article relavent? We know, from the past that torture is not a way to get intelligence, and we don't torture.
"We" don't tell us what we do.
say enough times and maybe you'll actually believe it.
Give me an example of when we did.
Abu Ghraib
OK, what did we do to torture them? I saw some disturbing things about that, but you have to redefine what torture is to claim that as torture. It was not torture!
What did we specifically do that cons utes torture?
beatings, rape, sodomy, being urinated on, and humiliated don't qualify? If so, then I guess there was no torture. Are you daft?
Not all those things occured first of all. Besides, they don't qualify as torture:
1. Certain, clearly defined acts perpetrated against helpless prisoners, to force them to suffer excruciating pain and discomfort.
2. Cruel and outrageous acts that terrorize helpless prisoners to force or coerce them to react in a way that satisfies the torturer.
3. Any act committed by an official of a government against a prisoner of war which could cause undue pain, as clearly defined by many international agreements.
4. (mainly literary) The "suffering of the heart" imposed by one on another, as in personal relationships.
Now nobody approves of the actions by the soldiers of Abu Graib either, and those involved were punished!
sodomy by batton is not cruel and outrageous? that act doesn't terrorize, nor does it cause excruciating and undue pain?
Well, I never heard of that happening from any reliable source.
Source?
Then again, even if it did happen, it was not sanctioned. It was done by individuals who overstepped their authority.
so you admit it......good
I keep pimping "Fresh Air" on this board, but they have had some pretty timely guests. Today they had a panel including Stuart Herrington, who was an army intel officer during the Vietnam War. He inspected the conditions and techniques used in Iraq and Gitmo and explains where they went wrong, including a claim that young interrogators and others higher up have been influenced by shows like 24 in their at udes towards their subjects.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=15148243
Audio available tonight.
in other words Rush and Hannity deny it, so I will to.
are you kidding me? this has been covered ad nauseam by countless news organizations, under oath, in legislative investigations, etc.Source?
It was also done by contractors paid for with your tax money, with no supervison, and no accountabilty to any laws. If it wasn't sanctioned, then a blind eye was turned to the fact that torture and prisoner abuse was happening at the hands of Americans.Then again, even if it did happen, it was not sanctioned. It was done by individuals who overstepped their authority.
No I don't. "WE" as a nation do not torture. If individuals do, they are not doing it as part of the precribed rules, and they are criminals.
in this case, "WE" represents us. period
No, you are wrong. News organizations covered all kinds of unfounded allegations, and the things that occurred at Abu Grab that I know of were not torture.
Allegations and proof are two different things. Especially when such things are commonly lied about, like the lefts favorite phony soldier lied! He talked of torture that he could not have witnessed. Is he your expert witness?
We can disagree on that finer point.
Still, I need proof. Give me a verifiable source that torture was committed.
go to google dip . then you can punish rumsfeld and bush for apologizing
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/i...pt.html#ThR1.9
Just to clear things up.
no, you're not asking for either. you're asking us to do the impossible: convince you of the truth of these allegation when you're already convinced that they are not true.
No, show me a reputable source that confirms such actions, and I will change my mind.
You are stuck on the notion that I am inflexible. I simply do not believe the propaganda.
I believe I am asking for the impossible because I believe it doesn't exist!
Dare to prove me wrong? Afterall, I'm not perfect. I do make mistakes.
why did rumsfeld and bush apologize?
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