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Freaking Hoopshype. All the more reason for Seattle to trade Thomas.
how about jeff foster, i brought him up on koris ranting thread i believe, dude earns 6.5m this season and a player option of 7.125m
his player option, maybe we can give him a 3yr extention ending end of 09/10 season...
Freaking Hoopshype. All the more reason for Seattle to trade Thomas.
I think any bigman that can defend the post will do..as long as they are rebounding.
I hope you're wrong too. If Parker has to manage it the rest of the season, the season is already over.
Eh, I don't think the Spurs need a big. Oberto will come around once the playoffs roll around. If Horry doesn't join him, Bonner will be decent enough. I don't think the Spurs have a problem as far as not having good enough bigs next to Duncan.
Plus Kurt Thomas and Tim Duncan would form a frontline that is too immobile. If a team went small against the Spurs, the Spurs would get killed. Oberto, Bonner, Horry and even Elson work well next to Duncan because they are mobile and are able to step out on the perimeter if needed. Thomas couldn't and then he's not able to take advantage of small defenders.
If this were 1998, then yeah Duncan and Thomas would be a nice frontline. But it's 2008 and with the rules how they currently are, teams will go small and destroy that pairing.
Finley is more of an offensive player than Udoka. If Parker can return and go back to opening up shots for three-point shooters, then the starting lineup will be fine. If Parker is hobbled for the rest of the year, you have to start Manu and pray that the bench is good enough.
I just think it's a matter of picking players and playing them. Go back to a nine-man rotation and get this thing rolling. Pick one backup big, one backup points, one main backup swingman and then another swingman for spot minutes. The Spurs have the players, Pop just has to pick which ones he wants to use.
I know you disagree but I truly think the Spurs looked older and worse last year. And last year they actually had reason to play hard because of the way the Mavs beat them in 2006. This year they are looking pretty bad but they aren't looking as soft and as flawed as they appeared to be at this time last year.When it all comes down to it, this is the season that the Spurs are showing their age. I guess there's not much we can do about that at all…
Another good reply LJ. Good points all.
I am intrigued by Duncan/Thomas because that gives you two great low post defenders who are also good help defenders, Twin Towers-lite, and Thomas could operate at the FT-line for 15fters and dump-downs on O (something Oberto should do more of)... however, you are right - teams would go small and kill that lineup.
Which 9 would you go with? I'm guessing you'd say starters plus Manu, JV, Udoka, Bonner? It seems that you aren't yet convinced that Horry is done like I am?
TP is the key that starts this engine, apparently. Barry's passing and energy may have been able to cover him for a while, but with TP and Barry out the only creator we have is Manu. So, effectively, the season is in the lap of the Gods...
Don't teams go small on us and kill us anyway? Or stay big and kill us? If mobility is an issue, Elson is the only useful big man we have. If we are going to play a slow big man, let's have one who can be counted upon to get boards and defend. We don't have that now.
Also a good point.
Doesn't that sum up the current predicament - this team is really not sure what it is, and in trying to cover all the bases it's spread too weak.
Maybe it is time to go back to ultra-slowdown mode and grind people out with two big guys...
I dunno. I have to go away and not think about this . My brain is mush.
G'night.
Agreed 100 percent.
Playig snall ball really depends upon the opponent . If the only way we can be a team is to run them to the ground then I prefer to have the small (and faster team), Never mind the rebound, think about running and scoring.
Transition points start from the defensive end, unless you wanna take the suns route and inbound passes 40 feet and take the first shot off the screen and roll you see. Suns can do that because they have the talented players that we don't have outside the big 3.
There is Oberto and Bonner slow. And then there is Kurt Thomas sloooooooooooooooooooooow. Oberto and Bonner seem like Allen Iverson and Deion Sanders when compared to Thomas.
That why I said it depends on the opponent. If you think we can't defend that well on a particular team then don't use it. We used the small lineup against the lakers and we won. But I don't see that being done with the suns or houston. It's basically a coaching decision. We just need to play our pieces right.
Not that much difference that I see. We still don't use our big men with any consistency. And we get worked on the boards whether we go big or small. And none of them can block a shot.
Our mobile big is Michael Finley.
The best fast lineup the we got is oberto playing the 5. Duncan 4 bowen/udoka 3 , ginobili and parker 1. Thomas, isn't the popular guy for me. I'd rather have fortson. If left with no choice however, I'd use him for physical teams (only) not on faster teams. Thomas' days in starting fives are done - if he desides to join the spurs (which is unlikely). But just for the sake of argument, made a proposition. What the heck...
You think Thomas could go out on the perimeter and guard anybody? Oberto and Bonner can at least get a hand up. Thomas wouldn't be able to do that. Great post defender, however he has no mobility anymore.
Pop used small ball a lot last year too during the regular season but was pretty smart during the playoffs about not going small against teams that can dominate small ball (Nuggets, Jazz and Cavs).
Oh and the Spurs are the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. They are much improved over last season in that category. Losses this year that can be blamed on rebounding can be counted on one hand. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by how well this team has rebounded this season, considering all the small ball that has been played.
Actually, the Spurs currently are one of the best defensive rebounding teams in NBA history. I can't find a team in recent years who comes close. Not bad for getting "worked on the boards".
Kurt Thomas is a shotblocker? Horry is better shotblocker than Thomas. Even this fat, slow version of Horry we see today.
Everyone on the team is mobile compared to Kurt Thomas.
Oberto and Bonner are the worst at defending the paint. All they are is a step ladder for an And 1 for opposing wings who penetrate. Those two shuffle their feet away and pat the penetrators on the back as they score. It's disgusting to watch. Interior Defense would help. As i said before, Something that can improve the offense is having a big NOT named Oberto next to Tim getting consistant minutes, helping triggering fast breaks and creating easy transition buckets by standing their ground inside, blocking, and contesting shots around the rim. Something Oberto is very very very inferior at.
Our transition game has been non-existent the past month and a half. Half of that is because of Parker's injury but the other half of it comes from the lack of interior defense. That's why I'm so against Oberto, but y'all claim he's solid when he gets dimed for easy wide open lay ups, sets screens, and tips a ball out or two. Any big can make an open layup and set a good screen and most grab rebounds not tip them. We win with defense, always have always will and thats my point about Oberto. He brings zero defensively.
If anything I'd like to trade a couple of expendable players with expiring contracts for a defensive big man. Why do you think PJ Carlismo was going after Oberto and won the game. Thats our weakness.
Kurt Thomas might not have the athletism of a Dalembert or Amare. But the man is smart enough defensively to avg. 3 times more blocks than Oberto a game.
Kurt Thomas is as or more mobile than Oberto and is definatley a better presence defensively.
So we're the best 10th place rebounding differential team in NBA history.
Ok.
If they can be bothered to, It's not like they won't be on the team anymore if their catlike lightning mobility is needed.Oberto and Bonner can at least get a hand up.Oh, that guy who is shooting 18% this season? He's actually not that much better a blocker this season. But he's mobile. I'll give you that.Horry
But, I defer to you. Everything will be fine if Parker heals up. I'm overreacting to the mounting losses.
Duncan is the Spurs' interior post defender. In the modern day NBA, you don't need two interior post defenders. While Oberto and Bonner do suck at protecting the rim, so does Thomas. Thomas is a post defender, not a help defender who can cover other people's mistakes.
Oberto was enough last year. Once Duncan gets into playoff defensive mode, Oberto's shotblocking weakness isn't as noticeable. I don't think a Duncan/Oberto frontline is a bad matchup against any team in the NBA except the Mavs. But against the Mavs, Thomas would be an even worse matchup than Oberto.
ROFL @ the thought of Thomas guarding Dirk.
I'll take Wilcox shooting fade away 15-footers all night. If you want a defensive big, that's great. But the big should be a shotblocker or a guy who can defend on the perimeter adequately. Not a guy who just replicates the same defensive skills Duncan brings minus shotblocking.
Thomas gets blocks against players he's guarding. He doesn't block shots when playing help defense. If you are going for a shotblocker, you want a weakside shotblocker to play next to Duncan.
And again, Thomas is no shotblocker. Horry is more of a shotblocker.
Maybe four years ago.
Agreed. But not in the areas that would help the Spurs.
Rebounding differential? That stat still exists? The Spurs mathematically are at a disadvantage in that stat because 1) they have a slow pace 2) they don't even try to get offensive rebounds.
The days of having two post defenders died when the NBA outlawed handchecking.
Horry is at least a weakside shotblocker. Thomas gets blocks because when playing post defense.
We're either all overreacting or all underreacting.
I can't tell.
I didn't get the memo that getting more rebounds than your opponent is no longer considered good. Sorry.Rebounding differential? That stat still exists?
I've been told not to worry, so I won't. It's easier this way.
Oberto was enough last year. So was the whole team. But to me Horry showing up defensively helped more than Oberto.And by the looks of it, I don't like putting all of our eggs in the basket of this 07/08 Horry. I think it would be nice to have a different option inside to defend the paint. But in order for us to have enough to win it again this year, our Big 3 have to be firing on all cylinders and healthy ( which isn't looking good with Parker's bone spur). Two of our other wings ( Bowen, Finley, Barry, Udoka) have to be on fire and hitting just about every open three they see. If those things don't happen again we won't get past the second round.
Nice thread, Ruff.
I won't reply to anything specifically but I will just throw a few points out there about random stuff talked about in this thread.
1- I think I like the Stoudamire acquisition, whether or not it is due to Parker being out an extended time or not. I have no problem with Jacque Vaughn, but since the Spurs don't have a top tier backup PG, I like the idea of having variety in the backups. The team needs firing up, needs someone to energize the defense, hustle around the court and be responsible with the ball, then bring in Jacque. A low risk - low reward type. If the team needs an offensive spark, someone to get in the key a little, someone who won't be afraid to shoot the ball and can score 10 points in a quarter, then bring on Stoudamire. It can be quite easy to pickup what the team needs at any given time, so having a variety of styles in the backups is never a bad thing. I don't like redundancy in backups, because in the NBA there is so many different styles thrown at you that it's nice to have an answer or even the ability to cause your own matchup problems for the opposition.
2- Benching Bowen is a big no-no for me. First off, I like how he sets the tone for the team defensively, and the versatilty he shows when switching off onto different starter quality players early in the game. He protects the bigs in a way by staying in front of his man very well, the last thing the Spurs need is more slashing players going at Duncan early in the game causing foul trouble because of the weaker defensive unit starting the game out. I also think that benching Bowen takes away one of his great strengths, and that's getting in the head of players early in the game. Forcing them to take bad shots, ruining there confidence and basically being annoying. This leads to players taking themselves out of the whole, just because of some good defense early on. It's asking way to much of Bruce to be a defensive fire extinguisher of sorts, coming on to slow down guys that are already on fire, that's just not possible in the NBA, players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Arenas, Pierce, Redd, McGrady, Carmelo, Iverson etc etc are just to good to stop once they get the ball rolling. Plus, Udoka isn't ready to start yet. Offensively, with Parker healthy, and the team playing cohesively like it generally does later on in the season, Bowen is certainly not a liability on the offensive, He is always good for 2-3 15-20pt games during the playoffs, and the Spurs always win when he performs like that. He knows the system, and when everybody is healthy, he is a vital cog even offensively to everything being spaced correctly and generally running smoothly. Bowen should not be benched this season, maybe next season sure, but not now in a panic move, no way.
3- I don't think Horry is done yet. I know he looks useless right now, and even during the season he shows more than this normally. But I'm not ready to say he is done, I still think when push comes to shove, final 2 minutes of a big game, Horry will be the 2nd big on the floor with Duncan. I'm all for Bonner getting more minutes as well, I'm still unsure why he lost minutes whilst playing well, which leads me to the next point....
Rotation! Settle on one please Pop. Once everyone is healthy, stop ing around and give players a chance to get some rhythm in lineups. It's a big help to have complimentary lineups on the floor, it stops these ing scoring droughts happening, and keeps players confidence up. Manu and Oberto should be on at the same times. Parker with Finley and Bowen is a good match. If Vaughn is on, please don't have Bowen and Elson on with him. I've seen far to many whack lineups this season, and I know there has been injury probs and that you have to try out different lineups etc, but the time is coming up where Pop needs to decide what is best and stick with it so the guys can get some chemistry together. The 2nd unit is killing the Spurs at the moment, and the first unit isn't much better.
4- This team is good enough to win the championship. They don't need a trade, they don't need Stoudamire, but if they do make a trade or sign Damon then it could help. If the players can start playing a bit more motivated, get some chemistry behind them and stay healthy, this team is still incredibly hard to beat in a 7 game series. But this slump isn't to be just tossed under the rug, there really could be problems. I think its obvious the Spurs need an energetic big (perhaps mahinmi, splitter) who can play 10-20mpg and also an athletic guard that can create his own shot. But the Spurs needed this last season, and they still won, so it can be done. They just need to play some Spur basketball, because I'm not seeing much of that lately. What I am seeing is a mixture of basketball, players that aren't comfortable in there roles or are pressing, injuries, boredom and some very unmotivated and uncommitted defensive efforts all around. I think it may take just one thing, one play, one game to make these guys remember what they are about, and I still won't bet against a Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, Horry, Duncan lineup in the final 5 minutes of a playoff game.
I think Pop thinks it's too early to settle down on his rotation. I don't agree with this, but usually he uses the first half of the season to do his experimentations -specially with the different lineups he could use in the floor. The second half of the season is where the real thing starts. If I'm right, there should be a regular lineup that he would play each game during the rodeo trip. I hope he gets to it soon. Losses are starting to pile up.
i stopped caring about the part of the spurs season before the all star break a long time ago. they have always pulled their together the last half of the season or so.
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