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And several bodies were found. Pictures of them were shown in the Moussaoui trial.
They are very graphic; if you really want to see them, some are linked on this page:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics... le=Pentagon
No luggage body parts seats or engine parts that match up to a large plane and you go by some painted logo on a some small parts carried off by one person?
who's the real sucker here? I guess i can run your ass over in a large van as long as I paint AA in red and blue you sue the airlines?
Oops.
And several bodies were found. Pictures of them were shown in the Moussaoui trial.
They are very graphic; if you really want to see them, some are linked on this page:
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics... le=Pentagon
Oh look, there's a video for the Pentagon debris and remains too. I've got this guy's channel bookmarked.
No luggage body parts seats or engine parts that match up to a large plane and you go by some painted logo on a some small parts carried off by one person?
who's the real sucker here? I guess i can run your ass over in a large van as long as I paint AA in red and blue you sue the airlines?
people died that day asshole, wether you want to look at the evidence or not. all your evidence consist of is theories and not hard evidence.
so don't desecrate the names of people who died that day.
and make sure you know all the facts before you make such claims. you and i know you know jack about engineering and physics.
Fair enough. We have what amounts to a typo.
But, but, but arguing over 55 feet worth of distance is so productive, because it distracts from the rest of the video that Galileo can't really explain away...
my bad!
The firemen who checked the scene denied there was any molten metal.
They say the hot oven WEAKENED the steel, but did not MELT the steel!
WTC - No Pools of Molten Steel
This is a good one. It shows the truth movement actively faking evidence.
Except that he said "THEY" made the decision. Not "I made the decision" to pull it.
Let's look at everything the man said.
Before we continue examining conspiracist misrepresentations about WTC 7, it's important that we understand what the official version of events is. Here's a summary, from the NIST report.
Essential Reading: NIST NCSTAR 1-8 Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: The Emergency Response Operations. (PDF)
Excerpt: Summary of World Trade Center Building 7 Emergency Response.
• The building had sustained damage from debris falling into the building, and they were not sure about the structural stability of the building.
• The building had large fires burning on at least six floors [fires were visible on at least 16 floors]. Any one of these six fires would have been considered a large incident during normal FDNY operations.
• There was no water immediately available for fighting the fires.
• They didn’t have equipment, hose, standpipe kits, tools, and enough handie talkies for conducting operations inside the building.
At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. The order terminated the ongoing rescue operations at WTC 6 and on the rubble pile of WTC 1. Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At approximately 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.
Here’s a much-reprinted quote from FDNY Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro:
"The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt."[Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002]
In another interview, Chief Nigro said,
"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely."http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y
In 2007, "Ref" of the JREF forum and 9/11 Guide contacted Chief Nigro for clarification of some points. Here's the reply he received:
Regarding WTC 7: The long-awaited US Government NIST (National Ins ute of Standards and Technology) report on the collapse of WTC 7 is due to be published at the end of this year (although it has been delayed already a few times [ adding fuel to the conspiracy theorists fires!]). That report should explain the cause and mechanics of the collapse in great detail. Early on the afternoon of September 11th 2001, following the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, I feared a collapse of WTC 7 (as did many on my staff). The reasons are as follows:
1 - Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.
2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.
3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.
4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.
For these reasons I made the decision (without consulting the owner, the mayor or anyone else - as ranking fire officer, that decision was my responsibility) to clear a collapse zone surrounding the building and to stop all activity within that zone. Approximately three hours after that order was given, WTC 7 collapsed.
Conspiracy theories abound and I believe firmly that all of them are without merit.
Regards, Dan Nigro
Chief of Department FDNY (retired) Source
That’s certainly straightforward. Building 7 was severely damaged and had severe, uncontrollable fires, and the FDNY withdrew its firefighters to protect their safety.
But of course the firefighters were in on the whole thing, and despite hundreds of their coworkers getting killed, none of them have stepped forward to reveal this "coverup".
At the beginning of this paper I introduced the group NY911truth, which some friends and I confront on Saturdays at Ground Zero. In my first appearance there, in June or July, 2006, the first thing the group’s leader Les Jamieson said to me was, “We should have a debate.” I’m sure he didn’t know then that I knew far more of the facts of 9/11 than he, although I had only been looking into the CT claims for three months and he had been doing so since November, 2001. We did have an impromptu mini-debate before the video camera of do entarian Fletcher Holmes. The subject was the collapse of WTC 7, which Jamieson believes is one of the best pieces of evidence in favor of the “inside job” theory.
I reminded Jamieson that the firefighters reported massive damage and raging, uncontrolled fires, and that the Chiefs, specifically Chief Nigro, gave the order to withdraw the firefighters from the area long before the building collapsed. He replied that perhaps they had been ordered to withdraw by someone higher up, such as Nicholas Scoppetta, the FDNY Commissioner, who presumably got his orders from someone who was in on the plot.
That made me very angry. It was the first time I had heard someone blame the FDNY for the collapse of WTC 7. Since then, I’ve heard at least three other members of Jamieson’s organization make the same claim while standing on the ground where so many heroes died.
Let’s keep in mind what it would mean (only as far as the FDNY’s involvement is concerned) if
Jamieson was correct:
1. The top people in the FDNY were so corrupt that they called off a search for hundreds of fallen firefighters in order to participate in a crime.
2. The FDNY Chiefs who claim to have made an agonizing decision to stop rescue operations in the area around WTC 7, in order to to keep rescuers from becoming victims, are lying.
3. All the people on the scene who reported massive damage and uncontrolled fires on many floors at building 7, and who said they were sure that the building would collapse (we’ll read their reports later), were coerced into inventing those stories in order to cover up the crime of deliberate demolition of a skyscraper.
4. The massive amount of smoke seen billowing from nearly every floor on WTC 7’s south side did not indicate massive fires.
5. None of the 16,000 uniformed or civilian members of the FDNY, or anyone else who was involved in this huge conspiracy, has come forward about these issues in the past 5 years.
Les Jamieson, leader of NY 911 Truth
Jamieson has appeared twice on the NYC-area television show Hardfire, where his arguments were eviscerated by host Ron Wieck. Watch it here part 1 and here part 2.
Firefighters’ Statements: “Of Course They’re Lies!”
Following is a transcription of an audio recording I made at Ground Zero on September 16, 2006. Bold type indicates shouting. The participants are me, Les Jamieson, and a particularly volatile and ignorant member of his organization named Jack, who is a regular on Saturdays.
Jack, member of NY 911 Truth
A substantial crowd had gathered. First, I read the Daniel Nigro quote above to Mr. Jamieson. Here it is again. It bears repeating:
“The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.”
Me, to Jamieson: Chief of Operations, right here, who gave the order to start clearing this area three hours beforehand. And you’re saying that Larry Silverstein gave that order? Why?
I pull out a sheaf of quotes from FDNY eyewitnesses that detail the fire, damage, and suspected collapse of building 7.
Me: I’ve got page after page corroborating that. Page after page corroborating the damage, page after page corroborating that he gave the order, page after page saying that they did pull the men out starting at about 3 o’clock. But you blame Larry Silverstein. Why?
Jack, interrupting: BECAUSE HE SAID “PULL THE BUILDING!”
Me: Oh, did he?
JACK: PULL is the operative word! You say “they” was the operative word? IT WAS PULL. P-U-L-L!
I hand him the printout of Silverstein’s statement.
Me: Here, read this to the people. Are you afraid to? Let’s see if you get it right. On 9/11, I gave this quote to four different people of your persuasion, and every single one of them said, when they were reading it, said “He” decided to pull. Now you read it. See what it says.
JACK: We went through this before. This is a reprise of a previous episode. [True: from about an hour earlier!] He asked me to read this paragraph. I’ll read the paragraph, and let’s see if it’s going to register as funny, okay? I read the whole paragraph, and he says to me “read the last sentence.” I say, Okay, ‘And they made that decision to pull.’
Me: And who was “they?”
JACK: No, wait a minute! Here’s the punch line. I say to him, “What’s the operative word here?” He says to me “They.” NO. IT’S PULL. P-U-L-L!
Me: Okay, I’ve got 15 different quotes here where fire department– (JACK starts to walk away) You gonna stand here and listen? –Where Fire Department people use the word “pull,” meaning pull their people out.
JACK: You don’t even understand English grammar! He said “IT!” “IT!”
Me: Yeah, the operations. The firefighting operations. I don’t understand English grammar?
Jamieson: People were pulled out at 11:30, weren’t they?
Me: No, sir, they weren’t. As you know – because I’m sure you’ve read the quotes – it started at about 2:30, the pullout. Before that they were trying to rescue their people who were under the rubble here.
Jamieson: I have 11:30. So even if it’s 2:30, why are they saying to pull it at 5:20?
Me: When did the conversation with Silverstein happen? Hours beforehand.
Jamieson: No.
Me: Yes, sir. You’re saying that Chief Daniel Nigro is lying? You’re saying the Fire Department is lying?
Jamieson: Silverstein is lying, maybe. Could that be?
Me: About what? His story corroborates perfectly with what the Fire Department says.
Jamieson: ‘Cause he says “We agreed to pull the building, then we watched it collapse.”
Reminder: Les Jamieson is the leader of one of the major 9/11 “Truth” organizations, and he claims to have been investigating these matters since 2001. Also, Jamieson was listening attentively 30 seconds earlier when Jack read “And they made that decision to pull.”
Me: No, sir. He says “They made that decision to pull.” Who’s “they?” He’s on the phone with the Fire Department.
Jamieson: Right.
Me: So you’re saying the Fire Department’s lying, when they’re saying that they made the decision?
Jamieson: How does the Fire Department have the ability to pull?
Me: To pull? To pull their men out. (I shake my sheaf of quotes) Fifteen different times they use the quote “pull,” meaning pull their men away from the building–
JACK:NO! THEY SAID PULL IT!
Me: –and thank God they did, because no one was killed when building 7 collapsed.
JACK: PULL IT!
Me: Was that a good decision or not?
Unidentified Truther:PULL IT!
Me: And they did that three hours before the building collapsed.
Jamieson: What about–
Me: I’m asking you a question. Is the Fire Department lying? You’re saying Larry Silverstein gave the order. I have page after page of quotes. Are they lying?
JACK: This is total obfuscation! Total obfuscation! What difference does it make if the time is plus or minus two hours? He said “PULL THE BUILDING! PULL THE BUILDING!”
Jamieson:PULL THE BUILDING! And it fell straight down! Not south!
JACK:PULL IT! I-T!
Me (reading from FDNY quotes): Fire Department Chief Daniel Nigro: “The biggest decision we had to make–“
JACK, to the crowd:HE’S OBFUSCATING! WITH TOTAL BULL !
Me:“–was to create a collapse zone around the severely damaged building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.”
How about this: “There had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.”
And this: “The building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see. So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped.”
Here’s another: “They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. ... Finally they pulled us out.”
Here’s another: “Seven World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling, fully involved.“
Here’s another: “There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it.”
JACK: HAHAHA!
Me: Yeah, it’s a lie? These are all lies the Fire Department is telling? I’m recording this, by the way.
JACK: OF COURSE THEY’RE LIES! TOTAL FABRICATIONS! TOTAL FABRICATIONS!
Jack walks away, shaking his head. Jamieson makes no objection to his statements.
Please let Les Jamieson know what you think about what he and his organization’s members say at Ground Zero. His 9/11-related email address is [email protected]
Jason Bermas of Loose Change Disparages the FDNY at Ground Zero
Contents
Main 9/11 Links Page
I have never encountered anyone in any sphere of endeavor as thoroughly misinformed as Jason Bermas, another “9/11 Truth Movement” leader, the most defiantly outspoken of Loose Change’s three creators, and its chief “researcher.” On the subject of 9/11, he seems to be completely incapable of getting anything right. Bermas has apparently spent a lot of time watching Alex Jones videos.
In my compilation Loose Change Creators Speak, Bermas mentions 18 conspiracy theories in a single interview, not because he’s reciting a list of them, but because that’s the way he talks. The following is a bit of an “aside,” but I think it’s important to show just how twisted the thinking of the leaders of the “9/11 Truth Movement” can be. Here is a sample of Bermas’ lunacy (pun intended):
“I contend that we may have been to the Moon, not with rocket technology, but with something else and it's secret. Definitely not the Apollo landings – they're a joke.”
“I really do feel like the evidence is there that these guys [U.S. political and religious leaders] are in the occult.”
On politician John Kerry: “This guy practices the occult. He had to in order to get into Skull & Bones [the not-so-secret Yale University club whose membership rolls were published by the school when Kerry was a member]. What ELSE is he capable of?”
Radio host: “And the 9/11 attack itself, is that the European group, or is that more the Americans, like Bush and Cheney?”
Bermas: “These guys in America are able to become billionaires, but they're not the multi-trillionaires that are in countries, basically with a free license to print money. So their power [the Americans' power] can only go so far.”
Host: “So you see it [The people behind the 9/11 attacks] as more of a European-type thing?”
Bermas: “Absolutely. I mean when you look at how bizarre some of these rituals are, and where these things come from...Helmut Schmidt, for instance, former German Chancellor, talks about all the things he used to do, all these Germanic death cults, and he talks about, you know, Bohemian Grove being a sex event and loving the rituals there, it's su ious to me, man! I mean, I can see that with my own eyes. [I would like to read his eyewitness accounts! –MR] ...You look at things like the Montauk Project, and Boys' Town, and they definitely used, you know, drug addicts, sexual deviants. It's mind control! It's absolute mind control.”
“There was a report out in the past couple of days [on Alex Jones’ website, of course] that the government has been actually recruiting pastors and ministers to go around and say, you know, if something like the bird flu hits, it'll be good to go with, like, FEMA into camps and all these other federally-regulated areas, and they're actually being paid to say this stuff. And taking inoculations, and that is SCARY!”
“Unfortunately, in this country if there is another major event, and if it is incrementalized and larger than the last one, they could declare martial law at any moment, and have forced inocu-lations, and who's to say what they put in your body?”
“Believe it or not, TIVO was working on a brain chip, so that with your TIVO box there it would record what you want, when you want it, and it will base it on your brain patterns.”
Prophetic logo according to Jason Bermas?
If Bermas and other 9/11 “Truth” leaders are so obviously divorced from reality, why am I spending my time doing this? Why not leave them alone to bark at the moon and be laughed at by sensible people?
Answer: because they have been effective at spreading their message. Millions and millions of people have viewed at least part of Loose Change, which is freely available on the internet. I get several emails a week thanking me for my Loose Change Viewer Guide (a major revision – with twice the information and better sourcing – is in the works), because for a time they had bought Loose Change’s propaganda. In August, that guide, which I don’t advertise, had a peak viewer ship of over 30,000 people in one day. That means many, many more people are out there with this stuff rattling around in their heads. Now I understand the meaning of “viral video.”
Even people who aren’t taken in by the more extreme claims of the 9/11 Denier Movement can find themselves thinking that there must be some evidence of US government involvement in the attacks, based on the sheer volume of conspiracist claims. I have yet to see any such evidence, and it’s not for lack of trying.
Back to Jason Bermas at Ground Zero.
As mentioned above, the purpose of the protest at Ground Zero on 9/11/06 was to get the attention of the mainstream media. Two days earlier, on 9/09/06, the Loose Change guys and Alex Jones visited Ground Zero. Their cameramen filmed the visit. You can watch it here. It begins with a preamble by Jason Bermas:
"You can just imagine just the flurry of people who are going to be here in memoriam of all those that died on September 11th. Really, we’re gearing up, we’re giving out 10,000 DVDs, we’ve got 1,100 shirts. We’re really gonna make our presence known. Finally the mainstream media is going to have to stop attacking us and start reporting on us fairly, and that’s really our goal."
Bermas then strolls past, and comments on, the large bronze relief of 9/11 firefighting operations, which is on the side of Firehouse 10, across Liberty Street from the World Trade Center.
Jason Bermas outside Firehouse 10. He forgot.
At 40:33 in the same video, speaking at Ground Zero on the same day, Bermas expresses his opinion of the low character of FDNY firefighters, in answer to a question by Abby Scott:
“The firefighters ARE paid off.”
Remember, this video is promoted by the creators of Loose Change. They’re proud of it
Months later, after I brought attention to his statement, Jason Bermas posted the following bizarre explanation on the Loose Change Blog:
I would just like to apologize for the comment I made to one Abby Scott on September 9th of this past year. I made the MISTAKE of saying that the firefighters were paid off, I did not mean this, and am convinced some sort of Jedi Mind trick was pulled on me.
I was discussing how if you have a government job and want to keep it, aka Controlled Demolition Inc. you keep your mouth shut. It then moved to the firefighters and some how I said "The firefighters are paid off", and then cited how many of them discussed the bombs in the days after. I DO NOT BELIEVE THE FIREFIGHTERS WERE PAID OFF! I hold them as heroes in the highest regard, and I truly believe that they were threatened in the aftermath of the event that not only traumatized a country, but still affect their lives deeply to this very day. Many of these men have families, and would do anything to keep them safe. I also believe many of them do not, and can not think the worst of their country. I know it was very difficult for me.
So, Mr. Bermas believes, not that the firefighters were paid to keep quiet about what they know, but that they are being threatened to keep quiet. He does not present any evidence to back this absurd claim. He also seems to be implying that the respected firm Controlled Demolitions Inc. was somehow involved in this conspiracy.
Did the 9/11/06 Ground Zero protest achieve its goal of garnering massive media attention? Dylan Avery, writer and director of Loose Change:
"And shame on the mainstream media in general for participating in what can only be de-scribed as a media blackout. Those that did mention it marginalized it dramatically.
We are not conspiracy theorists by any stretch.
We are a growing body of concerned Americans who have both investigated the events and experienced them first-hand, and we are absolutely convinced that our government is hid-ing the truth from us, whatever the truth may be."
Dylan Avery, posting on the Loose Change blog, October 3, 2006: “I find it extremely telling that this article from Mexico gives us more coverage [of 9/11] than anything we experienced from American Mainstream Media combined.”
I believe Mr. Avery is complaining about the lack of positive mainstream media coverage, not about the lack of coverage such as that hilariously dished out by Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone on Sept. 26, 2006:
"I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot – not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together – that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter."
You can watch a two-part debate between Bermas and Avery of Loose Change, versus myself and Ronald Wieck, on the TV show Hardfire. Part 1 Part 2.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next: Alex Jones Vilifies the FDNY and Larry Silverstein at Ground Zero
The Basics: Critical Thinking, Informal Logic, The Scientific Method
The Basics
Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit
Michael Shermer on the Scientific Method
A "theory" in science is like a guess or a hunch, right?
Michael Shermer: Not all wrong theories are equal.
Distinguishing science and pseudoscienceBad Science: Dr. Ben Goldacre's excellent blog http://www.badscience.net/
A Field Guide to Critical Thinking
Critical Thinking Mini Lessons
A Guide to Logical Fallacies
A simple guide to common logical fallacies
Fallacy Watch: How to Read a Poll
Denialism Blog: How to be a crank
Propaganda and debating techniques (Thanks, anticonspiracy911)
The Woo-Woo Credo
7 Stupid Thinking Errors You Probably Make (identifying sources of bias)
Study: How Warnings about False Claims Become Recommendations
Last edited by RandomGuy; 04-15-2008 at 10:51 AM.
C'mon RG, can't you do some basic formatting and editing for length? Put some effort into it.
I think I was going to try and hyperlink all of that, and may at some point, but just click the first link to the original page with all the links.
I know, I know. I did one big long thing, then got a "page expired" bit and lost it all. To avoid that I will do short edits and save the changes, so I don't spend a lot of time on something that vanishes instantly.
I have this bookmarked, and will do the edits as time permits. This way I will have a ready made broadside.
I also have the luxury of editing my first few posts in this thread on page one and two, and have added a few things. Look for the original post to get waaay longer. It is a great place to put reference stuff.
Yep, these truthers are guys fully connected with reality
So you're saying that Silverstein is accussing the fireman of being involved in the conspiracy?
If by "conspiracy" you mean the conspiracy to evacuate personnel ahead of an obviously impending building collapse.
One of the co-conspirators who was obviously ordered to lie to the media the afternoon of 9/11:
rofl
exactly
these chodes are just posting cooper marriotts debunking youtube#4
You mad?
At least our vids are short.
RandomGuy owns this forum!
I thought that was Kori.RandomGuy owns this forum!
RandomGuy owns this forum!
Aw shucks.
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