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It's not that hard at all! Shaq has made some free throws, Amare has gotten some rebounds and blocks. Nash has brought absolutely nothing on D. I saw not a single steal yesterday.
The Suns are predicated upon the pic-n-roll. Every open shot they get in the halfcourt is from the collapsing defense on Amare in the post, or the rotational defense trying to pick up the ball as its passed along the perimeter after the PnR has been run.
Kidd can't run it. I just don't see the Suns being anywhere near as efficient on offense with Kidd.
As what happened ten years ago is relevant. It shows that despite talent, Kidd's shooting stalls the halfcourt offense. You can't win a playoff series vs. Western Conference teams as a transition mainly offense. You need balance and I just don't think Kidd would bring enough of it to Phoenix for them to be better.
Suns needed to do a lot of things, going as far back as the offseason they signed Nash. But trading Nash for Kidd isn't one of them, in my opinion.
It's not that hard at all! Shaq has made some free throws, Amare has gotten some rebounds and blocks. Nash has brought absolutely nothing on D. I saw not a single steal yesterday.
What about flops?
Me thinks you overstate the prowess of Shaq making FTs and Amare controlling the paint.
We have a stat for flops? J/k
I'm not saying that Shaq and Amare contributed in those areas enough to win but tony parker's line should be attributed to Nash, directly or in-directly. That is his man!
That's not true. If a Phoenix big man could step up and control the paint, whether ir be blocks directly, or altered shots indirectly, and do such without fouling, then Nash wouldn't be taken to the rim near as much.
If the Suns had Marcus Camby, Nash "defense" would appear much better.
The one thing I can say about Nash's defense is that it's bad, but not for a lack of effort. Nash is incapable, not unwilling. I s'pose you can say similar about Shaq's FT shooting, and maybe his shotblocking since he's now so old, but Amare only half-heartedly tries for rebounds and good defense.
Because he is incapable of playing defense, it puts more pressure on the others at that end.
That one highlight they show on Espn of Amare was pathetic.
Kidd has been equally embarrassing defensively. A true point guard that can defend is the key to success. Kidd guards Paul the first 2 games and gets lit up. Than he defends Pargo in game 3 and gets lit up. you Kidd.
Agreed... neither is doing the other any favors on defense. But Nash's strength is what he brings to the offense. Maybe right now it's not looking good enough to the point where it more than makes up for his defense, but fact is the Suns have had several offseasons to being in help to shore up the lane and discourage slashers from consistently taking Nash off the dribble and they haven't.
The reason I won't fault Nash is he's given everything he has. Even if it wasn't ever enough, that's all we as fans can ask. Management has failed him repeatedly to both get that shotblocker to control the paint and a capable backup to give him rest. Management and other teammates have failed Nash and the Suns more than Nash has failed them.
You don't understand the hack-a-Shaq completely. It's not just about Shaq missing free throws. It's about forcing D'Antoni's hand to take Shaq out of the game. That forces D'Antoni to play a smaller line-up with less interior resistance defensively. It puts greater pressure on Amare and the perimeter defenders. When Shaq has been out on the floor, he may not be great in pick-and-roll defense, but he plays Duncan one-on-one, is an interior presence, and helps defensive team rebounding overall. To think it's just about Shaq making a few of his free throws is naive. Him missing enough to force D'Antoni to take him out for stretches changes the game plan for the Suns at both ends of the floor.
And, rebounding and getting a few blocks is not the only responsibilities on defense for a big man. Amare doesn't contest dribble drives in the paint very well. He isn't strong defending the post. And, he doesn't close on perimeter switches. Getting rebounds and a block here or there does not mean Amare is playing defense. To think it is is ridiculous.
Nash is not a good defender. Everyone knows that. That's what Shaq was supposed to help with. That's what switching up playing zone is supposed to help with. That's what his teammates and coaches are supposed to help with. And, newsflash, Tony Parker was killing anyone who was guarding him, Diaw, Hill, Barbosa, anyone who switched on him, all of them.
Please, i am not talking about the hack a shaq. My reference to that was that they have made some contributions, maybe not enough, but they have made some. Nash has made none!
You overstate to the point where any validity a point has is ignored.
Nash is terrible, but he puts effort into it, is willing to stand in and take much more contact than his body should handle and never gives up on rotations.
He's not good, but I can't fault his effort.
So if Nash had gotten a couple of steals, you're saying you wouldn't say anything?
Please. Nash is not a good defender. He does make an effort. He's just not very good, especially containing quicker players. What's Amare's excuse? Amare is one of the most physically gifted athletes in the league. And, he's one of the worse defenders. Just because he gets a couple blocks, he earns a reprieve? Because Shaq only missed 8 free throws, he's good?
Nash deserves some blame. No more than anyone else on the team who all have been underachieving.
Bingo, except Nash has not been getting any of the blame. You would expect to get better than a line of 7 points, 9 assists, 0 steals, 2 rebounds from your 2 time MVP. He's been basically playing rover on defense and you can't even get 1 steal? For the whole series? Some say it's not because of effort, ok cool, its not but it is because of ability. Either way, its not getting done!
Getting a steal doesn't mean he's playing defense. Nash knows if he goes for steals against Parker, he'll get burnt and compromises the defense and offers a great chance to get his bigs in even more foul trouble. Getting a steal or two would not change the fact that he's not a good defender. It's silly to blast a guy for not getting any steals. That's been your argument. "He can't even get one steal?" That's such a crap argument.
And, who cares who's getting blame? You want to blast on Nash on a sports messageboard, fine. Why do you even care about a player getting enough blame?
Uh, Nash doesn't guard Parker enough to get burnt. Steals is the defensive specialty of a PG, that is what they do! Along with he just flat out sucks in keeping guards in front of him or any phase of playing defense! What do YOU think a PG's responsibility should be on defense, Einstein? Flops? You want to praise a player from doing absolutely nothing on defense, that's your business, I choose not to and that's MY business! Nash should be accountable just like Shaq and Amare!!!!!
Last edited by LakeShow; 04-26-2008 at 06:08 PM.
God you are so ing stupid. Nobody can guard Paul, Kidd included. Second, the Mavs were choosing to let Pargo try and beat them instead of Paul.
No, it's not, you moron.
Yes and they chose it by letting Kidd guard Pargo. Kidd doesn't have the quickness to guard either player. Terry defended Paul pretty well surprisingly but he does have a little more speed than Kidd. Lue should get a shot as well to guard Paul.
JamStone, not that I disagree with anything you've said. I think his point is that players of similiar stature on their team like Dirk and Kobe would get absolutely roasted for the type of game the Suns played last night. God, Dirk can play twice as good and he will still be a choker, or a 'softie' for the media. Tim Legler just said that he is the Mavs problem, eventhough he is having an amazing series.
This speaks to a double standard. The media has a certain agenda, and they go forward with it. They create stereotypes which are easily instilled in people's mind. This whole conversation proves it. They have made Nash burden-less when it comes to the Suns' failures. Yet last year, the Mavs lost a regular season game to the Suns when Dirk missed a shot in the end, and they all were up in arms saying that Dirk should not win an MVP and such.
If Nash is no more to blame for the Suns' struggle than the rest of the team, how come Kobe was never defended for having to play with Smush Parker, or Dirk defended for the way Stack and Jet failed to make the Warriors pay for tripple teaming him? If "it's a team game" argument is used for Nash, then it should for everyone else.
And they suckered New Orleans into running their offense through him. Do you have any comprehension at all to what it means to lose the battle and win the war?
Dallas has superior shooting talent???? Where oh where outside of Dirk, and the decreasingly hot night from Terry is this talent. Any true Mavs fan will tell you that a shooting guard is the key hole of the roster.
I guess thats why in the last 8 years that a pg has led the league in steals 6 of them and a point guard finished in the top 3 in the years that a point guard didn't win it. I'm sure if I did deeper it will just expand the numbers of PG's that led the league in steals. Re ed !
This is what puzzles me. The justification for his MVPs was predicated on the fact that he 'makes his teammates better'. Basically, the team's success was placed squarely Nash's shoulders. Now that the team isn't coming through, Nash's teammates are suddenly responsible for themselves?
I obviously don't blame Nash for his team's inep ude, but he didn't deserve all the praise in the first place.
Nowitzki, Terry, Howard, and Bass are at least as good as Stoudemire, Bell, and Barbosa. Hill, Diaw, and O'Neal certainly aren't any threat as spot-up shooters. At the most pessimistic appraisal of Dallas, I think they're no worse than at par with Phoenix's shooting talent.Dallas has superior shooting talent???? Where oh where outside of Dirk, and the decreasingly hot night from Terry is this talent. Any true Mavs fan will tell you that a shooting guard is the key hole of the roster.
That aside, there's no way Kidd can run any decent half-court offense of the kind Phoenix relies upon, as JMarkJohns correctly notes. A player like Kidd (or Brevin Knight or Carlos Arroyo for that matter) can rack up assists and steals in a broken field, but against a playoff-caliber defense their inability to score only leads to broken plays. You need some balance in order to run a pick-and-roll; that Steve Nash is the best shooter ever to play the game is as important to his success with the Suns as his creativity as a ballhandler.
I went back seven more years just for the of it, 5 of them were point guards, Here take a look for yourself
http://databasebasketball.com/leader...asonsearch.htm
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