Is Dirk Nowitzki underappreciated?

[JK2]

Getting this amateur team to medal 3-4 times like Dirk has is just as convincing to me as leading an extremely talented roster to a gold medal.

I second that. did you know that 3 players of the German starting five play for the same team and had a record of 2-12 in the Euroleague? and these 3 include Okulaja who is by far the second best player on the German national team. that pretty much sums up the talent Germany has.

[endrity]

Now you're just lying. The thing I most remember about that game (besides Manu's injury) was Wolkowski one on one defense on Dirk that allowed the other players to stay with their men, which it was huge, 'cause that German team had the reputation of making you pay when you double Nowitzki.



He just won it 'cause Manu got injured, so he couldn't play the final and obviusly Argentina lost. Ginobili'd had been the MVP of that tournament if it wasn't for the injury.



Yeah I'm sure that one single game decides the argument.
Besides you're who brought Pau into the discussion if you want to place the Spaniard as the 2nd best player in international 'ships you should put him above Dirk not Manu.

I am pretty sure I remember Oberto doubling on him very often.

Yet beside that MVP Dirk also has two from Euro championships, and statswise he was dominant in the WC02.

I brought Pau in the conversation, because if you base everything on trophies won Spain has been just as good, and they have a track record of beating Argentina something like 10 straight times. However neither he, nor Manu come close to reaching the level of greatness Dirk has displayed with the German team. Again to take a group of amateurs on your back, and to make them medal 3 times is as great as an achivement as you can ask.

[endrity]

I second that. did you know that 3 players of the German starting five play for the same team and had a record of 2-12 in the Euroleague? and these 3 include Okulaja who is by far the second best player on the German national team. that pretty much sums up the talent Germany has.

I don't remember who it is, either Pesic or Demirel, played in the SECOND league in Spain!!!! That's the level of talent Dirk has to deal with.

[DAF86]

However neither he, nor Manu come close to reaching the level of greatness Dirk has displayed with the German team.

Of course Dirk's gonna have better numbers he takes like 50% of Germany's shots. Manu'd have those numbers if he'd put up so many shots.
What defines greatness is the capacity of always elevate your game when your team most needs it.
If you want to see greatness, go check the two games that Manu played against U.S. (when Argentina needed him most).
Dirk doesn't do these kind of things, he can have a good game, a normal game or a bad game but you never've the certainty that he'll show up when you need him.

[endrity]

Of course Dirk's gonna have better numbers he takes like 50% of Germany's shots. Manu'd have those numbers if he'd put up so many shots.
What defines greatness is the capacity of always elevate your game when your team most needs it.
If you want to see greatness, go check the two games that Manu played against U.S. (when Argentina needed him most).
Dirk doesn't do these kind of things, he can have a good game, a normal game or a bad game but you never've the certainty that he'll show up when you need him.

That's USA, ESPN, BS. That somehow only winning it all matters. If you really think Manu could have won with the team Dirk has you are simpy silly and blind.

Dirk beat Spain all by himself, he beat Russia all by himself, he beat France all by himself, he came within a 3point heave from midcourt from Iverson from beating the US. Dirk has many memorable games against top level compe ions so don't bring that in here. I could just as well say where was Manu in 06 against Spain, but that's dumb. You win and lose as a team. And Argentina's roster is full on NBA talent guys, Germany as I have said many times has amateurs on their roster.

[DAF86]

That's USA, ESPN, BS. That somehow only winning it all matters. If you really think Manu could have won with the team Dirk has you are simpy silly and blind.

I don't know if Manu'd have won with the German team most probably not. But I'm sure that Argentina wouldn't have had the same success with Dirk instead of Manu ('cause again what's made of this Argie team a champion contender in every single tournament instead of just a good team that can't go further than quarters or semis is Manu's out of this planet games everytime Argentina goes to a match as an underdog)

Dirk beat Spain all by himself, he beat Russia all by himself, he beat France all by himself, he came within a 3point heave from midcourt from Iverson from beating the US. Dirk has many memorable games against top level compe ions so don't bring that in here. I could just as well say where was Manu in 06 against Spain, but that's dumb. You win and lose as a team. And Argentina's roster is full on NBA talent guys, Germany as I have said many times has amateurs on their roster

Did you read what I said? I never said that Dirk always chokes in important matches I just said that he isn't that kind of player that you know will come through when you most need it. There are lots of do or die matches where he just didn't deliver.

And did you watch Argentina-Spain in 06? Manu was the reason we only lost by one. Spain-Argentina is just like Mavs-Spurs, Spain matchups perfectly with Argentina and before the world cup they were beating us by 20, 30 points everytime we faced them, but thanks to Manu we were one "open missed shot by Nocioni" away of winning that championship.

[endrity]

I don't know if Manu'd have won with the German team most probably not. But I'm sure that Argentina wouldn't have had the same success with Dirk instead of Manu ('cause again what's made of this Argie team a champion contender in every single tournament instead of just a good team that can't go further than quarters or semis is Manu's out of this planet games everytime Argentina goes to a match as an underdog)



Did you read what I said? I never said that Dirk always chokes in important matches I just said that he isn't that kind of player that you know will come through when you most need it. There are lots of do or die matches where he just didn't deliver.

And did you watch Argentina-Spain in 06? Manu was the reason we only lost by one. Spain-Argentina is just like Mavs-Spurs, Spain matchups perfectly with Argentina and before the world cup they were beating us by 20, 30 points everytime we faced them, but thanks to Manu we were one "open missed shot by Nocioni" away of winning that championship.

So what makes you think Dirk wouldn't have big games with Argentina since HE HAS HAD big games like these in the past as I mentioned, filled with amazing clutch shots too. For every Manu vs. Serbia in 06, there are two or three clutch shots by Dirk with the Germans.

And yeah I watched Argentia-Spain in 06, you lost cause your coach decided to foul. But I brought that example to show that just because your team doesn't always win your star player should not be blames, which is what appearently you are trying to hint at when you talk about Dirk.

It seems to me like most Spurs fans agree with this assesment as well, I think you should really open your eyes a lot more. I love Argentinian basketball, and football by the way, but you don't have to "defend" your boy against every argument.

[DAF86]

So what makes you think Dirk wouldn't have big games with Argentina since HE HAS HAD big games like these in the past as I mentioned, filled with amazing clutch shots too. For every Manu vs. Serbia in 06, there are two or three clutch shots by Dirk with the Germans.

And yeah I watched Argentia-Spain in 06, you lost cause your coach decided to foul. But I brought that example to show that just because your team doesn't always win your star player should not be blames, which is what appearently you are trying to hint at when you talk about Dirk.

It seems to me like most Spurs fans agree with this assesment as well, I think you should really open your eyes a lot more. I love Argentinian basketball, and football by the way, but you don't have to "defend" your boy against every argument.

Don't change the point of the discussion I'm not defending my "boys" (you're not going to hear me say that Oberto is better than Dirk) I'm just saying what I think Manu means as a basketball player. A lot of people tend to underrate Manu 'cause he doesn't take 20/25 shots per game therefore his scoring avg. doesn't show how good he really is.
But he's a guy that has been a crucial piece of every team he played for and with all of those teams he's Championships to prove just how important he is.
Let me ask you this? do you think that he's the luckiest man ever, or that he actually had something to do with his teams success through all these years?

I like Manu, you like Dirk but like I said earlier in this thread, Manu can retire today and he'll be a lock for the HOF. If Dirk'd retire today I'm not sure he will make the HOF. So the unbiased thoughts reveal that Manu is better than Dirk (at least for now) and that's all I'm saying.

[endrity]

Don't change the point of the discussion I'm not defending my "boys" (you're not going to hear me say that Oberto is better than Dirk) I'm just saying what I think Manu means as a basketball player. A lot of people tend to underrate Manu 'cause he doesn't take 20/25 shots per game therefore his scoring avg. doesn't show how good he really is.
But he's a guy that has been a crucial piece of every team he played for and with all of those teams he's Championships to prove just how important he is.
Let me ask you this? do you think that he's the luckiest man ever, or that he actually had something to do with his teams success through all these years?

I like Manu, you like Dirk but like I said earlier in this thread, Manu can retire today and he'll be a lock for the HOF. If Dirk'd retire today I'm not sure he will make the HOF. So the unbiased thoughts reveal that Manu is better than Dirk (at least for now) and that's all I'm saying.

Dirk is an MVP in the NBA, and WC and EuroChamps. He is a dead lock for the Hall of Fame. Just as Manu.

No I don't think Manu is just lucky, also there is a little bit of it when it comes to being drafted 57th and being part of one of the elite teams of the NBA. He is a strong part of the teams he won with. But he is not the single reason. First there is this guy named Duncan. Second, the Argentinians have always been known for having a great team and moving well without the ball. They never were a team that just gave the ball to Manu and let him go to work. Again, I think Manu is a superstar in the NBA, a great player. But Dirk has 3 consecutive First team NBA selections, an MVP, and the lone leader of his team. The simple fact that someone can say that Manu is a better player makes him underappreciated, which is the point of the thread.

I am done!!!

[DAF86]

Dirk is an MVP in the NBA, and WC and EuroChamps. He is a dead lock for the Hall of Fame. Just as Manu.

No I don't think Manu is just lucky, also there is a little bit of it when it comes to being drafted 57th and being part of one of the elite teams of the NBA. He is a strong part of the teams he won with. But he is not the single reason. First there is this guy named Duncan. Second, the Argentinians have always been known for having a great team and moving well without the ball. They never were a team that just gave the ball to Manu and let him go to work. Again, I think Manu is a superstar in the NBA, a great player. But Dirk has 3 consecutive First team NBA selections, an MVP, and the lone leader of his team. The simple fact that someone can say that Manu is a better player makes him underappreciated, which is the point of the thread.

I am done!!!

And I'll say that the simple fact that you can't even consider that someone can say that Manu is a better player than Dirk makes Manu underappreciated, which is my point.

And now I am done!!! (I wasn't going to let you have the last word).

[stretch]

And I'll say that the simple fact that you can't even consider that someone can say that Manu is a better player than Dirk makes Manu underappreciated, which is my point.

And now I am done!!! (I wasn't going to let you have the last word).

Your arguments are a bunch of weak homer garbage.

Fail.

[DAF86]

Your arguments are a bunch of weak homer garbage.

Fail.

3 NBA rings, gold medal (MVP), euroleague (MVP), Italian leagues (MVP's), lots of other 'ships and individual awards that I honestly can't remember ('cause there're too many ) and a future HOF.

Yeah that's a bunch of weak homer garbage.

[dirk4mvp]

Let's just end it at something people with a lick of sense can agree on. Dirk is better than Manu.

[JK2]

Dirk would have won a ton of different les if he played with Duncan and if he had to play in Europe till his mid twenties. oh by the way, how man Italian championships did Jordan win?

[Magic_Johnson]

there's only 3 better player than Dirk in the league : Duncan, Lebron, Kobe.
So yeah Dirk is underappreciated

[DAF86]

Dirk would have won a ton of different les if he played with Duncan and if he had to play in Europe till his mid twenties. oh by the way, how man Italian championships did Jordan win?

Oh yeah? And Manu would have won an MVP and the reputation of beign a choker if he got to the Mavs at the age of 19...and an olympic gold medal.

And if endrity can count Dirk's all Euro-cup teams, why can't I count a freaking Italian championship. (at least you can celebrate if you win one of this)

[JK2]

what's the point in comparing a 7 time all star, MVP, 7 time All-NBA-teamer and franchise player to a player like Ginobili who won 3 rings because he had the chance to play with Tim Duncan?

[DAF86]

what's the point in comparing a 7 time all star, MVP, 7 time All-NBA-teamer and franchise player to a player like Ginobili who won 3 rings because he had the chance to play with Tim Duncan?

Really I'm tired of arguing 'bout this, if you think that Dirk is better than Manu that's fine with me but let me think that Manu is better than Dirk.

P.S: Go ask Dirk if he wouldn't want to change careers with Manu? Peace!

[JK2]

of course he would have loved to play with Duncan instead of the spares that he is surrounded with. and I am sure Duncan would have loved to win even more rings with Nowitzki.

[dirk4mvp]

of course he would have loved to play with Duncan instead of the spares that he is surrounded with. and I am sure Duncan would have loved to win even more rings with Nowitzki.

Dirk and Duncan would probably be going for a 6 or 7 peat this year.

[Findog]

Manu > Dirk?

[The Nba Is Rigged]

In my opinion Manu is great, I'm a big fan of his when he is not playing vs my team, he's a stud but if you think that Manu is better than Dirk then you must be a Blatant Homer or a Dirk Hater.

[sribb43]

In my opinion Manu is great, I'm a big fan of his when he is not playing vs my team, he's a stud but if you think that Manu is better than Dirk then you must be a Blatant Homer or a Dirk Hater.

I agree, Love Manu but time to take the homer glasses off

[DAF86]

Dirk and Duncan would probably be going for a 6 or 7 peat this year.

Yeah and Manu would be going for his third MVP in a row if he played for the Mavs.

The problem is that you see Manu as a 2nd or 3rd option that can't carry a team. But you forget that Manu's carried teams through all his life, and you're probably going to say that Europe isn't the same as the NBA and it's true but the differnce isn't as big as you guys think (the top teams in europe'd kick most of the NBA teams butts including the Denver Nuggetts ) and don't forget 'bout the two wins over a team full of NBA all-stars.
If Manu and Dirk switch places:

Would Dirk have more championships than Manu? probably yes.

Would Manu have better numbers than Dirk? probably yes.

Would you be saying that Manu's better than Dirk? YEAH!!!

[dirk4mvp]

Would Manu have better numbers than Dirk? probably yes.

Would you be saying that Manu's better than Dirk? YEAH!!!

no

no