For Rocket Fans Papaloukas Wants To Play In NBA

[Indazone]

What I want to know is why have Vasilis stats all gone South for the 2007-2008 season???

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...is-5209/stats/

[stretch]

Another gold medal? When was the last time Team USA won the gold medal in Olympics basketball? No medal in 2002, Bronze medal in 2004. Nothing is guaranteed for 2008.

Do your research and get back to me.

[stretch]

Dude, trust me, Papaloukas is better than JJ Barea! Kill Bill is obviously very biased when it comes to Greek players, because he is Greek himself.

However the Euroleague is very very tough compe ion. No college team would come close to sniffing a win against any of these guys. I have no doubt that Papaloukas, just like many others, would have had a good NBA career if he came over early enough. However not everyone dreams about playing in the NBA. The economics have changed.* Top Euroleague players make more money than the NBA MLE, especially considering the weakening of the dollar compared to the euro. Not everyone wants to take a pay cut for 2-3 years, before he can get a bigger NBA contract. That is why guys like Javtokas, Diamantidis, Papaloukas, Smodis maybe, never come over to the NBA. That is why Dejan Bodiroga who was the best Yougoslavian player of the 90s (yes, including Divac and Peja) never seriously considered coming over to the NBA. They were treated like gods, made very good money, no need to give that up.

*There was an article by Hollinger, who is an econ grad, that explains very well some of the changes in economics that are happening right now. Hollinger actually argued, that if the league keeps pushing the age limit to 20, it would make perfect sense for the top high school players to go to Europe for 2 years. They would make money, AND receive much better coaching than they would in ty NCAA play. It makes perfect sense actually. The only thing is that there would be a cultural barrier of sorts for 18 year olds to go overseas, however Europeans do it when they come to the NBA. No reason Americans can't get adjusted. Plus it's not like living in Rome, Madrid, Athens is actually a bad thing. No way living in college can match that.

I have no doubt that there are very talented players in Europe and such. I never doubted that for one second. My point was, its ing ridiculous to say that a player that has never played a minute in the NBA, who has the best players from around the world, including the US players, is better than elite experienced ballers such as Jason Kidd. There is no question that the NBA has the most compe ion in the world for a league, especially when you look and see that the top players from so many different countries (Dirk - Germany, Nash - Canada, Ginobili/Oberto/Scola/Delfino/Nocioni - Argentina, Parker/Diaw/Pietrus - France, Gasol/Calderon - Spain, Okur - Turkey, Yao - China, Barbosa/Nene - Brazil, Peja - Yugoslavia, and the list goes on...)

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

What I want to know is why have Vasilis stats all gone South for the 2007-2008 season???

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...is-5209/stats/

I have say this over and over stats in Europe is complete different than NBA. Until American fans understands this is not possible have serious talks with them about "Euro" basketball.

[Indazone]

I have say this over and over stats in Europe is complete different than NBA. Until American fans understands this is not possible have serious talks with them about "Euro" basketball.

Not when you compare his stats this year to his previous years in Euroleague.

[stretch]

I have say this over and over stats in Europe is complete different than NBA. Until American fans understands this is not possible have serious talks with them about "Euro" basketball.

Until you understand that NBA has higher compe ion and the best players come here to compete, and that comparing unknown players and saying they are better than world known superstars, it is not possible to have serious discussions with people like you about basketball, period.

[Indazone]

His 2007-2008 numbers are clearly worse than his 2005-2006 numbers.

[stretch]

His 2007-2008 numbers are clearly worse than his 2005-2006 numbers.

lol no question. i dont see how it has anything to do with NBA stats or whatever that guy was fussing about.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

His 2007-2008 numbers are clearly worse than his 2005-2006 numbers.

Not really. He was much better this year. Faster, stronger, quicker, better point guard instinct and better at directs team as point guard. Also better range on 3 point shot. You realize stats of players will go down obvious when add player like Saras to team who is not there in other year.

Instead of him and Diamantidis in point guard is them and Saras. This is one of reasons chemistry of team is so bad this last year. And as I say again American NBA fans cannot understand Europe stats. They not even try understands them. They not able grasp 15 points 5 assists in Europe is like 25 points 10 assists in NBA.

Let me put this way NBA fans see Spanouli stats and he "sucks" even I see such topic in Rockets board but he is player on #4 rate team in all Europe for this whole season and he lead team in scoring points and also in assists and he is also league Greek league in assists.

What American fan not understand is in NBA it not possible to be on 4 best team in league and lead scorer of team average 11 points. But this is how is in in Europe especially in very deep team like Panathinaikos.

If American NBA fan would just take 5 minute to look at stats by team percentage or team stats they maybe understand at least basic thing of these players. But they refuse do this. Like when last years Navarro average 16 points per game he leading scorer of all Euroleague. NBA fans sees 16 point in Euroleague and believe this like 3rd option of team and stupid things like this.

Or how on Rockets board idiot Sam Fisher cannot understand assist in Europe is like 2 in NBA. The rule for count assist is not even same. Look at stat of Euroleague 5-6 assist is LEAD Euroleague every year. NBA fan see player with 5 assist and say stupid thing like "horrible assist turnover ratio".

Spanouli in other year with PAO is leads team score but not assist this year he lead them in score and assist. Trust me he is better player than he were before go to NBA.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

lol no question. i dont see how it has anything to do with NBA stats or whatever that guy was fussing about.

Because in NBA 11-12 point and 3-4 assist average is not lead team if top 4 team in NBA but it do in Euroleague. You need at least make attempt to understand difference between stats in these leagues and look at team stats and understand possession and times of games and pace and such. But NBA fans it seems is not smart enough to do this simple thing.

[stretch]

Not really. He was much better this year. Faster, stronger, quicker, better point guard instinct and better at directs team as point guard. Also better range on 3 point shot.

Being faster, stronger, quicker, and having better instincts/range has absolutely nothing to do with numbers. How re ed are you? Sometimes I wonder if you are a real person, or simply a troll trying to around with some of the stupid you say...

In terms of stats, he clearly had an inferior year this season, than 2 years ago.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Until you understand that NBA has higher compe ion and the best players come here to compete, and that comparing unknown players and saying they are better than world known superstars, it is not possible to have serious discussions with people like you about basketball, period.

Until you grow brain you cannot be reason with. I have NEVER say NBA is not best league it is best league. You makes up lies I never say such thing. This is typical tactic that Americans in these boards use. In American schools debate skill is obvious not teach to average person.

What I say is that until fans of NBA like YOU not understand not all best players is in NBA then YOU is person with very poor basketball knowledge and cannot be take serious in these discussion. If you think all best players in world is in NBA you are either ignorant of players around world or you are just dumb.

[stretch]

Because in NBA 11-12 point and 3-4 assist average is not lead team if top 4 team in NBA but it do in Euroleague. You need at least make attempt to understand difference between stats in these leagues and look at team stats and understand possession and times of games and pace and such. But NBA fans it seems is not smart enough to do this simple thing.

OMFG

GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE ING STATS. THEY COMPARE HIS LAST TWO SEASONS IN EUROLEAGUE. 2005-2006 >>> 2007-2008 STATS.

[stretch]

Until you grow brain you cannot be reason with. I have NEVER say NBA is not best league it is best league. You makes up lies I never say such thing. This is typical tactic that Americans in these boards use. In American schools debate skill is obvious not teach to average person.

What I say is that until fans of NBA like YOU not understand not all best players is in NBA then YOU is person with very poor basketball knowledge and cannot be take serious in these discussion. If you think all best players in world is in NBA you are either ignorant of players around world or you are just dumb.

Fail.

GTFO.

[Indazone]

Not really. He was much better this year. Faster, stronger, quicker, better point guard instinct and better at directs team as point guard. Also better range on 3 point shot. You realize stats of players will go down obvious when add player like Saras to team who is not there in other year.

Instead of him and Diamantidis in point guard is them and Saras. This is one of reasons chemistry of team is so bad this last year. And as I say again American NBA fans cannot understand Europe stats. They not even try understands them. They not able grasp 15 points 5 assists in Europe is like 25 points 10 assists in NBA.

Let me put this way NBA fans see Spanouli stats and he "sucks" even I see such topic in Rockets board but he is player on #4 rate team in all Europe for this whole season and he lead team in scoring points and also in assists and he is also league Greek league in assists.

What American fan not understand is in NBA it not possible to be on 4 best team in league and lead scorer of team average 11 points. But this is how is in in Europe especially in very deep team like Panathinaikos.

If American NBA fan would just take 5 minute to look at stats by team percentage or team stats they maybe understand at least basic thing of these players. But they refuse do this. Like when last years Navarro average 16 points per game he leading scorer of all Euroleague. NBA fans sees 16 point in Euroleague and believe this like 3rd option of team and stupid things like this.

Or how on Rockets board idiot Sam Fisher cannot understand assist in Europe is like 2 in NBA. The rule for count assist is not even same. Look at stat of Euroleague 5-6 assist is LEAD Euroleague every year. NBA fan see player with 5 assist and say stupid thing like "horrible assist turnover ratio".

Spanouli in other year with PAO is leads team score but not assist this year he lead them in score and assist. Trust me he is better player than he were before go to NBA.

I suspected as much and that is why I asked you this question. But this anser is satisfactory for me.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Being faster, stronger, quicker, and having better instincts/range has absolutely nothing to do with numbers. How re ed are you? Sometimes I wonder if you are a real person, or simply a troll trying to around with some of the stupid you say...

In terms of stats, he clearly had an inferior year this season, than 2 years ago.

No he did not. This season he is much better. How many games you watch? You are idiot and have no ability reason anything. They have 2 point guard before now they have 3. You think he have better year before with split ball and attempt and plays in hands with 3 players instead 2? You are idiot if believe such thing.

You think single cover year before and double team in many, many time now he have better year before? You think lead team in points is better than lead in points and assists?

And do you even know that this is 1/4 of all games he play in season or is you that stupid? This is not even count 3/4 of games he plays this year.

Before he was NOT best player in PAO it was Diamantidis. he was NOT best player in Greece it was Diamantidis. Spanouli was only most talent but not best. This year he is EASY best player of PAO and in all Greece.

I guess Michael Jordan have worst year every year he win championship then year he average 37 points he "obvious is worse player every other year look at the stats you idiot"

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

OMFG

GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE ING STATS. THEY COMPARE HIS LAST TWO SEASONS IN EUROLEAGUE. 2005-2006 >>> 2007-2008 STATS.

It is not better. It is not better have 15 points 3 assists than 11 points 3 assists when one year you have only one other player with ball in hands and take shots and run team equal you but next year you have TWO OTHER players.

It is also not better 15 points 3 assists against single cover defense than 11 points 3 assists against double teams and traps defenses constant try to stop you. If you believe this you are nothing but re .

[stretch]

No he did not. This season he is much better. How many games you watch? You are idiot and have no ability reason anything. They have 2 point guard before now they have 3. You think he have better year before with split ball and attempt and plays in hands with 3 players instead 2? You are idiot if believe such thing.

You ing moron.

How is averaging 3.3 less PPG, almost 10% lower FG%, 1.3% lower 3PT%, less assists and more turnovers a superior STATISTICAL season???

[stretch]

It is not better. It is not better have 15 points 3 assists than 11 points 3 assists when one year you have only one other player with ball in hands and take shots and run team equal you but next year you have TWO OTHER players.

It is also not better 15 points 3 assists against single cover defense than 11 points 3 assists against double teams and traps defenses constant try to stop you. If you believe this you are nothing but re .

Maybe there is truth to that, I don't argue it one bit, considering i didn't watch all his games, but in terms of pure statistical comparison, 2005-2006 > 2007-2008.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

You ing moron.

How is averaging 3.3 less PPG, almost 10% lower FG%, 1.3% lower 3PT%, less assists and more turnovers a superior STATISTICAL season???

Scola get 16 point 6 rebound in Euroleague before go NBA. Somehow in such "inferior league" he get those number and in such "superior league" he get 14 points and 9 rebounds in NBA playoff. He is #3 option of team in NBA playoff but #1 in Euroleague.

You realize draftexpress rank Diamantidis as #2 "free agent in world" and he average 7 points per game. What is your problem understand these concept? And Europe is NOT like NBA compare season by stats like this. You do NOT do same as in NBA. LEARN ABOUT this before make yourself idiot.

Game in Europe is base on TEAM not individual. Player stats is just as much control by how team perform as player himself. Is NOT NBA where you hand ball to best players and let them do whatever. You know NOTHING about game in Europe and is ridiculous that you argue with fans who do. You should not be Dallas fan because you is as foolish as most Rockets fans except for few in this board that is smart.

Spanoulis score 16 points per game in champions league when he play with Maroussi. Guess he "better" then than he is now

[stretch]

Scola get 16 point 6 assist in Euroleague before go NBA. Somehow in such "inferior league" he get those number and in such "superior league" he get 14 points and 9 rebounds in NBA playoff. He is #3 option of team in NBA playoff but #1 in Euroleague.

Yea its easy to get that kind of scoring when everyone plays off of you and is focused on stopping T-Mac and Alston. Not to mention it is a terrible defensive team that has no inside presence that they were playing against (Jazz). Let's see him as the #1 guy on an NBA team... they would be lucky to win 8 ing games.

[stretch]

You know NOTHING about game in Europe and is ridiculous that you argue with fans who do. You should not be Dallas fan because you is as foolish as most Rockets fans except for few in this board that is smart.

Go and read the posts. Not once did I talk about the game in Europe, except for the fact that it is not as compe ive as the NBA. You really are an idiot.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Maybe there is truth to that, I don't argue it one bit, considering i didn't watch all his games, but in terms of pure statistical comparison, 2005-2006 > 2007-2008.

Even if you want say this way you must understand this only 1/4 of games he play for year. Draftexpress do not count any other games but Euroleague and Spanish league. They do not even count Spanish Cup, Spanish Super Cup or Greek Cup or Greek league or even ULEB Cup you have to be from Spain or not even they count this.

Let me helps you.

http://www.paobc.gr/asists.php?category_id=119

Σπανούλης Βασίλης 141
Διαμαντίδης Δημήτρης 106
Γιασικεβίτσιους Σαρούνας 102
Μπετσίροβιτς Σάνι 52
Χατζηβρέττας Νίκος 33
Περπέρογλου Στράτος 23
Ουίνστον Κένεντι 22
Τσαρτσαρής Κώστας 21
Μπατίστ Μάικ 19
Αλβέρτης Φραγκισκος 18
Ζίζιτς Αντρια 9
Ντικούδης Δήμος 9
Τομάσεβιτς Ντέγιαν 3
Πρκατσιν Νίκολα 3
Ταταρούνης Αρης 1
Βούγιανιτς Μίλος 0

http://www.paobc.gr/points.php?category_id=122

Σπανούλης Βασίλης 90
Διαμαντίδης Δημήτρης 69
Μπατίστ Μάικ 49
Μπετσίροβιτς Σάνι 38
Τσαρτσαρής Κώστας 37
Γιασικεβίτσιους Σαρούνας 33
Χατζηβρέττας Νίκος 32
Ντικούδης Δήμος 29
Ζίζιτς Αντρια 27
Περπέρογλου Στράτος 24
Ουίνστον Κένεντι 24
Αλβέρτης Φραγκισκος 11
Τομάσεβιτς Ντέγιαν 5
Πρκατσιν Νίκολα 4
Βούγιανιτς Μίλος 0
Ταταρούνης Αρης 0

http://www.paobc.gr/scorers.php?category_id=116

Σπανούλης Βασίλης 360 Πόντους
Γιασικεβίτσιους Σαρούνας 309 Πόντους
Μπατίστ Μάικ 259 Πόντους
Διαμαντίδης Δημήτρης 249 Πόντους
Ουίνστον Κένεντι 225 Πόντους
Ντικούδης Δήμος 216 Πόντους
Ζίζιτς Αντρια 185 Πόντους
Χατζηβρέττας Νίκος 176 Πόντους
Περπέρογλου Στράτος 168 Πόντους
Μπετσίροβιτς Σάνι 158 Πόντους
Τσαρτσαρής Κώστας 156 Πόντους
Αλβέρτης Φραγκισκος 119 Πόντους
Τομάσεβιτς Ντέγιαν 25 Πόντους
Πρκατσιν Νίκολα 24 Πόντους
Βούγιανιτς Μίλος 8 Πόντους
Ταταρούνης Αρης 5 Πόντους


Spanouli lead team in point, assist, player rating. Try understand that Saras is 10 player in rotation at NBA level but in Europe he is like 6 man level in top team. Diamantidis is consider one of 5 best players in Europe. Batiste is consider one of top 5 power forward in Europe. Tsartsaris is consider one of best centers in Europe. Like say PAO is #4 best team in Europe.

http://www.eurobasket.com/ranking.asp

No Team Record Points
1. CSKA (RUS) 44-5 116
2. Real (ESP) 40-11 105
3. Khimky (RUS) 30-4 104
4. Panathinaikos (GRE) 37-8 101
5. Montepaschi (ITA) 49-9 100
6. Joventut (ESP) 38-9 95
7. Partizan (SRB) 38-12 94
8. Olympiacos (GRE) 32-13 93
9. Barcelona (ESP) 35-16 92
10. Tau Ceramica (ESP) 40-16 89
11. Lietuvos (LTU) 46-9 85
12. Maccabi T-A (ISR) 35-11 85
13. Besiktas (TUR) 36-7 82
14. Pamesa (ESP) 31-14 81
15. Unics (RUS) 25-13 80
16. Triumph (RUS) 24-10 79
17. Zalgiris (LTU) 40-16 76
18. Dynamo M. (RUS) 26-12 76
19. Efes P. (TUR) 31-18 75
20. Aris (GRE) 25-19 74
21. Zadar (CRO) 31-12 73
22. Akasvayu (ESP) 29-17 73
23. BC Kyiv (UKR) 28-4 71
24. Lottomatica (ITA) 30-23 70
25. Fenerbahce (TUR) 29-20 70

Keeps in mind this NOT even count Cup games. Eurobasket count national league but they not even count Cup league. Which also PAO win Cup.

Spanouli must not have such bad stats year lead such team in score points, assist, and player rating. Also you must understand before in 2006 is rookie year for Spanoulis and he is 2nd team all Euroleague. This year he not make any team. But Americans must try LEARN what this mean compares to NBA awards.

In Europe first ALL award base on how TEAM do. If NBA is same way Garnett is MVP and is landslide victory. This is how all awards go in Europe. If PAO will have make final Spanoulis would probable be Euroleague MVP and stats is lower than year he 2nd team. Next years he can have 18 point 5 assist and if PAO is lose in regular season he will be not even make nominee for all Euroleague which he make this year with 11 point 3 assist.

Siskauskas is NOT best player in Europe. But in Europe fans ONLY rate by how team do. If you win you are God if you lose are terrible. Spanoulis is "terrible" because he not go past top 16, Siskauskas is "god" because he win champions. Draftexpress is stupid site with American view of game and they not able to understand how these thing are. There top 25 player list is absolute JOKE.

Try also understand that in Europe these thing are decided by 50% fans. Not like in NBA where is media for some award or coach for some award. In Europe is half fans half the media. Example Saras this years gets 50% of all fans votes him "best point guard". He still even with this not make any team because of media vote. But must understand this. He almost make all Europe team just because of fan vote. You is allow vote as many time as want online from any country.

Even MVP award is same bu fans. So 50% of NBA is popularity contest on internet by fans and other half is by media base on who lead team in scoring as example of team make final of Euroleague = "Euroleague MVP".

And you must know that as in NBA China get many vote in Europe Lithuania and Spain and Italy get all vote. Greek players barely get any vote at all.

I just wish some American fans try understand how Europe game work instead of act like they know all. Like stupid fans judge Europe by Langdon or Siskaukas. They NOT get "best players in Europe" is base on how team do and what fans votes in internet ONLY. Nothing else. Everywhere is American fans on boards "Langdon is dominate Europe they suck there bad". He is just minor role player in his own team and never nothing more than this. This is FACT. "He Euroleague MVP" they say. No he is vote best player rating (like the NBA efficency thing) for 1 game and is "MVP".

Be like say Obert have best player plus minus in game of finals and thus is NBA MVP. But do American NBA fan ever bother learn something like these fact? No they just rolls eyes and make same crap comment over and over.

I will not claim players is great unless they are. Spanoulis and Papaloukas are GREAT players. Your Dallas team would be in dream if got either of them with coach like you now have because he is coach understand skill players. You get rid of crap coach now you have smart one. Believe me player like Papaloukas with 7 points 2 assists average in Europe can come to your team and YES right now he is BETTER than Kidd.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Yea its easy to get that kind of scoring when everyone plays off of you and is focused on stopping T-Mac and Alston. Not to mention it is a terrible defensive team that has no inside presence that they were playing against (Jazz). Let's see him as the #1 guy on an NBA team... they would be lucky to win 8 ing games.

You just make things up. Like say TRY LEARN about topic before assume. In his team TAU he is play off of Prigioni same exact way as off T-Mac. But no you assume he must be create everything in such "inferior league". Never occur to you there be players like Prigioni in his own team.

You just have this arrogant American at ude. I not blame you for why you have this because NBA hype machine never end and also ESPN with talks how NBA is like million times better than best leagues in Europe. But is NOT true.

Instead of argue these things try learn more about game all around world. European fans know ballers all over. American fans need stop be so ignorant and learn to. Just like Spurs and Rockets fans keep say "Scola only 6 rebounds in Europe he cannot play in NBA he will get only 2".

I mention that is much HARDER get rebounds in Europe and is insult and ridicule here many same style posts as you make. But I am PROVEN right and they are proven WRONG.

[stretch]

Even if you want say this way you must understand this only 1/4 of games he play for year. Draftexpress do not count any other games but Euroleague and Spanish league. They do not even count Spanish Cup, Spanish Super Cup or Greek Cup or Greek league or even ULEB Cup you have to be from Spain or not even they count this.

Let me helps you.

http://www.paobc.gr/asists.php?category_id=119

Σπανούλης Βασίλης 141
Διαμαντίδης Δημήτρης 106
Γιασικεβίτσιους Σαρούνας 102
Μπετσίροβιτς Σάνι 52
Χατζηβρέττας Νίκος 33
Περπέρογλου Στράτος 23
Ουίνστον Κένεντι 22
Τσαρτσαρής Κώστας 21
Μπατίστ Μάικ 19
Αλβέρτης Φραγκισκος 18
Ζίζιτς Αντρια 9
Ντικούδης Δήμος 9
Τομάσεβιτς Ντέγιαν 3
Πρκατσιν Νίκολα 3
Ταταρούνης Αρης 1
Βούγιανιτς Μίλος 0

http://www.paobc.gr/points.php?category_id=122

Σπανούλης Βασίλης 90
Διαμαντίδης Δημήτρης 69
Μπατίστ Μάικ 49
Μπετσίροβιτς Σάνι 38
Τσαρτσαρής Κώστας 37
Γιασικεβίτσιους Σαρούνας 33
Χατζηβρέττας Νίκος 32
Ντικούδης Δήμος 29
Ζίζιτς Αντρια 27
Περπέρογλου Στράτος 24
Ουίνστον Κένεντι 24
Αλβέρτης Φραγκισκος 11
Τομάσεβιτς Ντέγιαν 5
Πρκατσιν Νίκολα 4
Βούγιανιτς Μίλος 0
Ταταρούνης Αρης 0

http://www.paobc.gr/scorers.php?category_id=116

Σπανούλης Βασίλης 360 Πόντους
Γιασικεβίτσιους Σαρούνας 309 Πόντους
Μπατίστ Μάικ 259 Πόντους
Διαμαντίδης Δημήτρης 249 Πόντους
Ουίνστον Κένεντι 225 Πόντους
Ντικούδης Δήμος 216 Πόντους
Ζίζιτς Αντρια 185 Πόντους
Χατζηβρέττας Νίκος 176 Πόντους
Περπέρογλου Στράτος 168 Πόντους
Μπετσίροβιτς Σάνι 158 Πόντους
Τσαρτσαρής Κώστας 156 Πόντους
Αλβέρτης Φραγκισκος 119 Πόντους
Τομάσεβιτς Ντέγιαν 25 Πόντους
Πρκατσιν Νίκολα 24 Πόντους
Βούγιανιτς Μίλος 8 Πόντους
Ταταρούνης Αρης 5 Πόντους


Spanouli lead team in point, assist, player rating. Try understand that Saras is 10 player in rotation at NBA level but in Europe he is like 6 man level in top team. Diamantidis is consider one of 5 best players in Europe. Batiste is consider one of top 5 power forward in Europe. Tsartsaris is consider one of best centers in Europe. Like say PAO is #4 best team in Europe.

http://www.eurobasket.com/ranking.asp

No Team Record Points
1. CSKA (RUS) 44-5 116
2. Real (ESP) 40-11 105
3. Khimky (RUS) 30-4 104
4. Panathinaikos (GRE) 37-8 101
5. Montepaschi (ITA) 49-9 100
6. Joventut (ESP) 38-9 95
7. Partizan (SRB) 38-12 94
8. Olympiacos (GRE) 32-13 93
9. Barcelona (ESP) 35-16 92
10. Tau Ceramica (ESP) 40-16 89
11. Lietuvos (LTU) 46-9 85
12. Maccabi T-A (ISR) 35-11 85
13. Besiktas (TUR) 36-7 82
14. Pamesa (ESP) 31-14 81
15. Unics (RUS) 25-13 80
16. Triumph (RUS) 24-10 79
17. Zalgiris (LTU) 40-16 76
18. Dynamo M. (RUS) 26-12 76
19. Efes P. (TUR) 31-18 75
20. Aris (GRE) 25-19 74
21. Zadar (CRO) 31-12 73
22. Akasvayu (ESP) 29-17 73
23. BC Kyiv (UKR) 28-4 71
24. Lottomatica (ITA) 30-23 70
25. Fenerbahce (TUR) 29-20 70

Keeps in mind this NOT even count Cup games. Eurobasket count national league but they not even count Cup league. Which also PAO win Cup.

Spanouli must not have such bad stats year lead such team in score points, assist, and player rating. Also you must understand before in 2006 is rookie year for Spanoulis and he is 2nd team all Euroleague. This year he not make any team. But Americans must try LEARN what this mean compares to NBA awards.

In Europe first ALL award base on how TEAM do. If NBA is same way Garnett is MVP and is landslide victory. This is how all awards go in Europe. If PAO will have make final Spanoulis would probable be Euroleague MVP and stats is lower than year he 2nd team. Next years he can have 18 point 5 assist and if PAO is lose in regular season he will be not even make nominee for all Euroleague which he make this year with 11 point 3 assist.

Siskauskas is NOT best player in Europe. But in Europe fans ONLY rate by how team do. If you win you are God if you lose are terrible. Spanoulis is "terrible" because he not go past top 16, Siskauskas is "god" because he win champions. Draftexpress is stupid site with American view of game and they not able to understand how these thing are. There top 25 player list is absolute JOKE.

Try also understand that in Europe these thing are decided by 50% fans. Not like in NBA where is media for some award or coach for some award. In Europe is half fans half the media. Example Saras this years gets 50% of all fans votes him "best point guard". He still even with this not make any team because of media vote. But must understand this. He almost make all Europe team just because of fan vote. You is allow vote as many time as want online from any country.

Even MVP award is same bu fans. So 50% of NBA is popularity contest on internet by fans and other half is by media base on who lead team in scoring as example of team make final of Euroleague = "Euroleague MVP".

And you must know that as in NBA China get many vote in Europe Lithuania and Spain and Italy get all vote. Greek players barely get any vote at all.

I just wish some American fans try understand how Europe game work instead of act like they know all. Like stupid fans judge Europe by Langdon or Siskaukas. They NOT get "best players in Europe" is base on how team do and what fans votes in internet ONLY. Nothing else. Everywhere is American fans on boards "Langdon is dominate Europe they suck there bad". He is just minor role player in his own team and never nothing more than this. This is FACT. "He Euroleague MVP" they say. No he is vote best player rating (like the NBA efficency thing) for 1 game and is "MVP".

Be like say Obert have best player plus minus in game of finals and thus is NBA MVP. But do American NBA fan ever bother learn something like these fact? No they just rolls eyes and make same crap comment over and over.

I will not claim players is great unless they are. Spanoulis and Papaloukas are GREAT players. Your Dallas team would be in dream if got either of them with coach like you now have because he is coach understand skill players. You get rid of crap coach now you have smart one. Believe me player like Papaloukas with 7 points 2 assists average in Europe can come to your team and YES right now he is BETTER than Kidd.