I need advice from the Spurstalk community

[ATRAIN]

What's happens in a married couple is not anybody's ing business but theirs.

To a certain extent your right. The way I see it is if it affects family then it affects me.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Man, that's a rough situation. I will say that your instincts are right. You going off on her is going to make the whole thing worse. If I may play arm chair psychologist for a moment, controlling people tend to have pretty big egos at the core of themselves. And the bigger they are, the softer they are, so when someone tries to buck what they perceive as their authority (as I think Dave's wife is doing) they'll only get worse. So stroke her ego instead of trying to kick it in the teeth. Let her know what a wonderful person she'll be for letting Dave do this guilt free. My script would look something like this:

"Dave loves you a lot. It kills him to say or do anything that upsets you, which is why he asked me to talk to you. As soon as he sees that something makes you unhappy he'll take a back seat to your feelings in a heartbeat. He's been doing that for the people he loves his entire life {SFIE's note: It doesn't matter if that's an outright lie. The one tactical advantage you've got on your side is history here. You've known Dave longer, you get to make this claim.} So being stuck in a position where he feels like his only options are two choices that will hurt someone he loves either way is like a knife in his gut. Opportunities like this are only going to be tougher to come by for the four of us the longer things go. And if this situation doesn't change I know that Dave is going to stay here. He knows that no amount of fun that we could have is going to be enough to make up for upsetting you.

{Now you break out the big guns} When our dad died, as the eldest I kind of became the one that everyone looked to when a problem came up. I'm still not used to that and I don't know if I ever will be. I've got two brothers that this would mean the world expecting me to find the right words to make this whole thing work for Dave and the simple truth is that I can't. You can. Letting Dave on this trip guilt free would make a lot of people's lives a lot brighter. A few words and one weekend. It's a small price to pay for someone you love."

[johnsmith]

What's happens in a married couple is not anybody's ing business but theirs.

So what's your advice then boutons?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Tell him to go watch the Dark Knight.

[Fillmoe]

leave wifey with fillmoe for a few days... i guarantee she wont complain, let alone call "dave"

[Sec24Row7]

Yeah.. and people wonder why I'm not married...

[CosmicCowboy]

Tell her she can come but only if she pulls the train...

Seriously Chopper...you sure your brother didn't get switched at the hospital?

He just needs to tell her it's important to him and he's going. You need to stay out of it. If she leaves him for something stupid like this then it would just be something else next year...until he stands up to her the bar will continue to get lowered.

[Shelly]

Screw, Dave!

I'll send my husband in his place. I need a break!

[easjer]

You know what? I think your extincts are pretty right on. I think Kori and SFIE have both hit on things you can say. Be honest and open with both of them.

Although trying to get Dave to tell Janet these things may be better, so she can't throw a fit because he's talking about her behind her back.

This was hard for me to read. A lot of SFIE's family thinks of me the way you think of Janet, though without cause. It's not the truth in my case, and SFIE does a good job of not making things my fault, and I do a good job of letting him see his family and friends as he wants to (he's a grown man who can make his own decisions). But there is still the reputation and so I'm sensitive to this and don't want to insert my own history into my advice; but do remember that you may not be seeing a full picture and as boutons_ implies, there are things going on within that marriage that you don't know about. The fact that he's asked for you deal with this instead of him puzzles me a lot. She is his wife, and based on what you said, this sort of talking and interference is not going to sit well with her.

I hope it works out. It's a good thing for people to reconnect at the basis of who they are - in this case, just as brothers. Not brothers/husbands/fathers/in-laws - just back to basics for awhile. It's a special, important thing to do in all close relationships and for the individuals involved. Make sure Dave knows plainly what is at stake here - it's not just gallavanting for the weekend.

[Fillmoe]

tell david his vagina is bleeding

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

...until he stands up to her the bar will continue to get lowered.

Exactly.

[mrsmaalox]

Damn how long have they been married? Her insecurity about things like that should be fading. I really think it's your brother's place to deal with his wife; if he doesn't make the trip, it's his fault not hers. Of course she's gotten away with that behavior so changing it won't be easy. If you decide to talk to her about it (I wouldn't) the best approach is SFIE's; you technically are the patriarch now. Just make sure she knows this is not going to become a "habit", just a one time thing. Sounds like she can't stand to be alone with herself.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

This is all great advice. I knew the Spurstalkers would come through!!

You all have certainly confirmed a lot of my own thoughts on this whole thing. I think my first move will be to re-affirm for my brother a lot of the points that you all have made regarding family, and the real purpose for this trip, and then advise him to discuss these items with her. As many of you have noted, staying out of their discussion would be best if possible...I think.

I also know they talked for "several hours" about this, according to Dave, already, so I have doubts he'll make much headway. So step two will be me talking to Janet...and I think JohnSmith's idea is a great one, if I make no headway alone, for step 3 I'll have brothers 3 and 4 talk to Dave as well. I think I'll print SFIE's script and distribute it to the three of us.

CC's comment about the bar being lowered is exactly what I've witnessed over the years. My brother has been married for 17 years now. As I mentioned, he's a former athlete and his wife was a psychology major. He doesn't usually say much, and she is a great manipulator. She could convince him that a blue sky is reallygreen...I've seen her in action. Over the years she's slowly separated him from his family, and has become more and more controlling. Easjer, from what I know about you I doubt you are anything like my sister-in-law. Doug Christie's wife might be better than Janet.

Some examples of her domineering ways...she keeps a two column notebook on the counter and when my brother comes home everyday she makes him write down what he spent money on...if he went to the ATM, etc. She reviews his daily spending, but he told me he hasn't seen one of her receipts, or even one of their bank statements in years....and he outearns her 3 to 1, but I've seen him ask her permission to take a little cash out of the ATM before like none of it is his. He keeps a little cash stash hidden from her that he uses to go have a beer with the fellas or buy a new golf club or whatever else she wouldn't approve of...like have a little fun without her. They've got plenty of money so it's just a control thing.

Another example...I was in Phoenix on a business trip a couple of weeks ago and I took an extra day there to be with him. I specifically planned it so I'd be at his house when she was normally teaching/working out/etc. When she heard I was coming she rearranged her schedule and spent the entire day with us. And when she's with us she dominates the conversation. I probably had 5 minutes of actual conversation with Dave.

Example three...my brother and his wife flew to NM when one of my cousins from Atlanta came to town specifically to go skiing with us about 5 years ago. They come into town and Janet was dealing with a sore knee and decided not to ski. She convinced Dave that he shouldn't ski either because she said she didn't want him injuring himself and not being able to work at his job (which at the time he was still working directly on jobsites quite a bit). All this after they flew out knowing we all were going skiing. My cousin was mystified, and hasn't been out to visit since. I don't blame him.

I told her one time that if she were my wife I'd of divorced and/or killed her by now. She laughed like I was joking. I wasn't joking. That's why I'm really hoping to be able to talk to her in a calm manner because my instinct is to pull out the pimp hand. This thread has given me a chance to simmer a bit...thankfully.

Anyway...all this affirms a lot for me, and I sincerely appreciate it. I think at this point I'm more disappointed in Dave than anything else, but he's essentially in an abusive relationship and I'm trying to remind myself of that.

I'll keep you posted.

[Kori Ellis]

Some examples of her domineering ways...she keeps a two column notebook on the counter and when my brother comes home everyday she makes him write down what he spent money on...if he went to the ATM, etc. She reviews his daily spending, but he told me he hasn't seen one of her receipts, or even one of their bank statements in years....and he outearns her 3 to 1, but I've seen him ask her permission to take a little cash out of the ATM before like none of it is his. He keeps a little cash stash hidden from her that he uses to go have a beer with the fellas or buy a new golf club or whatever else she wouldn't approve of...like have a little fun without her. They've got plenty of money so it's just a control thing.

Yikes!

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Yikes!

Exactly...who would stay married to a person like that?

[johnsmith]

So which courses do you have lined up in Denver.............if you haven't lined up Arrowhead yet........do it.

[leemajors]

Here's the situation,

I am the oldest of four brothers, and the four of us have planned a 3 1/2 day golf trip to Denver for late August. Two of my brothers are in their 20's and the oldest of the three, Dave, is only a year younger than me. Only the baby of the group is single, and brother number three, Mike, has a baby due in October.

Anyway, we've got the trip completely planned, flights picked, hotel chosen, golf courses chosen, etc., when now Dave's wife, Janet, has told him that if he goes on this trip without her that he's choosing other people over her, and that she doesn't want to become one of those couples that takes separate vacations.

The ironic thing in this is that a few years back Janet's mom took Janet and her sisters on two trips to Europe that did not include my brother Dave. Janet's mom has since passed away, and for some reason, these trips without Dave are completely justifiable by Janet, but Dave's brothers weekend is somehow different according to her.

So Dave calls me and says to hold off on the reservations that he's not sure he is going. Needless to say I was disappointed and angry. He was looking to big brother to somehow make things better --- he asked me if I'd talk to his wife for him.

Basically I don't know what I'd say. A couple of years back she alienated herself from my wife by being pretty hateful, and so now I rarely see my brother, which is sad because he and I have always been close.

My baby brother is potentially taking a job in Chicago in the spring, and with Mike's wife's baby coming in October I know he'll be busy being a new dad for at least the next year and a half. My dad died suddenly, two years ago, and so I'm painfully aware that nothing in this life is a given, and so I was really looking forward to this trip. Dave's the one that the other three brothers see the least (due to his controlling wife) and so this trip was really being based upon him being there.

Dave is a former college football player. He is a superintendent for a large Arizona construction company and deals with some tough characters every single day on his job, but with his wife his balls shrivel up and disappear.

What should I do? What advice should I give? If I go off on Janet I'm sure she'll tighten the noose on Dave's nutsack even more.



The Chopper is stumped and looking for answers. I know the answers are here.


Help!

just try not to take it personally. go with the rest and have a good time. she'll get sorted eventually, and he probably knows it's a mistake anyway. just ignore it to the best your ability - if he doesn't know how to deal with her now, any family interference would probably worsen the situation.

edit: i just read the entire thread. CC was spot on, as were johnsmith and DLF. the only thing i would still recommend is trying not to take it personally, the decision has nothing to do with you or your brothers. she sounds horrible, but then again who knows what really goes on with them.

[BacktoBasics]

Exactly...who would stay married to a person like that?

Maybe she just keeps tight books. If they have a good life and a load of money in the bank its tough to argue with an anal book keeper.

Look I'm not trying to be a about things but far too often people look for the passive almost not aggressive approach to things thinking that they'll make headway with an overbearing dominant . It'll never work. That mentality is horse .

The only way to handle a women like that is to fight fire with fire and endure the burn longer than she can. She'll snap and come to her senses but only if you're willing to stay in the fire long enough. You have to match her toe for toe or she'll always get her way. Since you have absolutely nothing to lose by butting heads with her I recommend waging the war. Its the only way things will change. You can't and never will be able to level with a dominate ...they don't respond to common passive sense.

[Kriz-Maxima]

She sounds like a .

Sorry i have no advice, just wanted to share that.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

So which courses do you have lined up in Denver.............if you haven't lined up Arrowhead yet........do it.

I haven't heard of Arrowhead...I'll Google it and check it out.



Right now we're looking at BearDance near Castle Rock, Foxtrot in Lakewood, and The Ridge at Castle Pines. But the trip is still far enough out to make a change or two.

[johnsmith]

I haven't heard of Arrowhead...I'll Google it and check it out.



Right now we're looking at BearDance near Castle Rock, Foxtrot in Lakewood, and The Ridge at Castle Pines. But the trip is still far enough out to make a change or two.

As soon as you see the front page of arrowheads website, you'll change your plans.

Beardance and the Ridge are nice courses, you'll enjoy them. I've never played Foxtrot though.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Holy . Seriously, if you flipped the genders and put that couple on Dr. Phil, everyone and their dog would be calling that kind of controlling demeanor disturbing, even borderline abusive. But since it's a guy everyone just calls him whipped and laughs at it. That's seriously unhealthy.

And I'm guessing that posting this on an internet forum without going to my copyright lawyer first means that I won't be able to charge royalties if Ed uses my script. Son of a .

[easjer]

I keep most of our finances as well, and ask SFIE for expenses - but he also knows where to find my expenses and I run my big expenses past him first to make sure he is comfortable with where we are - mutual accountability.

You are completely correct - that is controlling behavior.

What a nightmare. Your plan is a sound one. I don't personally think a bit of guilt for Dave is amiss here either (a la SFIE's script).

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Look I'm not trying to be a about things but far too often people look for the passive almost not aggressive approach to things thinking that they'll make headway with an overbearing dominant . It'll never work. That mentality is horse .

The only way to handle a women like that is to fight fire with fire and endure the burn longer than she can. She'll snap and come to her senses but only if you're willing to stay in the fire long enough. You have to match her toe for toe or she'll always get her way. Since you have absolutely nothing to lose by butting heads with her I recommend waging the war. Its the only way things will change. You can't and never will be able to level with a dominate ...they don't respond to common passive sense.

My wife thinks like you do. That's why she and Janet don't talk these days...Mrs. Chopper wouldn't let Janet manipulate her and drew the line in the sand and the two of them had it out. I think their situation makes my mom and some of the more passive members of the family uncomfortable, but I'll tell you, it's certainly healthier for my wife.

It might come to this, B2B...I'm hoping it won't, but sadly that's probably step 4. I might have to be bold with my brother, too, and tell him that at the rate we're going he and I are never going to see each other again.

This whole thing is supposed to be fun and it's turning into crap. I told my wife when we started planning this thing that it probably won't go well, but Dave is the one who originally asked for this trip, so I had my hopes going in.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Holy . Seriously, if you flipped the genders and put that couple on Dr. Phil, everyone and their dog would be calling that kind of controlling demeanor disturbing, even borderline abusive. But since it's a guy everyone just calls him whipped and laughs at it. That's seriously unhealthy.

And I'm guessing that posting this on an internet forum without going to my copyright lawyer first means that I won't be able to charge royalties if Ed uses my script. Son of a .

If it works with Janet Christie I'll market it and split the royalties with you. We'll both be millionaires.