Your Vote, Your Reasons

[Extra Stout]

You're trying to rationalize the irrational. You've deluded yourself into believing a fairytale has more meaning than it does because you've lived your whole life believing in that fairytale. To reject it means rejecting yourself.

Listen to what you just wrote. What kind of God would deem slavery acceptable in any way, shape, or form regardless of the time period? Not the God you claim exclusivity to. If there is an omnipotent and benevolent creator he would be ashamed of what Christianity has become and how Christians like yourself have distorted his message. If anyone is burning in , it is you.

I did not grow up as a Christian. I chose to become one. I follow my personal experience of God.

I'm not going to claim the New Testament says something it did not say. It does not condemn slavery. The only part it condemns is kidnapping a free man and selling him into slavery. I don't know why you insist that is distorting the message when I am telling you the plain words of that message. You are claiming offense on behalf of a God you don't even believe exists.

The Christian life is not primarily or secondarily concerned with overturning social conventions or changing political regimes. It is about transformation of the individual and of the community so that we stop focusing on ourselves and start focusing on God and others. It's about no longer calling myself the sovereign authority over my own life and submitting first to God's commands and to the needs of others. It's about persisting in this no matter the personal cost. And it's about admitting that no, I can't do that by myself, because it is not natural to behave that way.

It's not about spreading democracy, or American values, or capitalism, or Kirk Cameron movies, or social liberation. All that is crap that people heap onto it.

And I readily and freely admit that much of the materialistic, consumer-happy, free-market capitalist string-em-up right-wing evangelical Republican nonsense that passes for Christianity is, to use a word Paul used, dogcrap.

If that means you think I should burn in ... well since you don't actually believe exists, where am I going? Lubbock?

[MannyIsGod]

I always knew the Anti Christ would be a Spurs fan.

[Mr. Peabody]

Dammit. I was stuck in court all day and missed out on this thread.

[Findog]

Well, you know how it is, the Spurs "play the right way," "don't care who gets the credit," and are "unselfish." At least that's what they want you to think.

[DarkReign]

Props to this thread for setting a SpursTalk record.

nevermind, FinD gets the credit.

[ElNono]

Dammit. I was stuck in court all day and missed out on this thread.

I'm not sure you want to catch up on it...

[Findog]

So do I get a Spur or what?

I think you should. Andy Sullivan likes the way you think.

[temujin]

I will reply to the original intent of the thread.

I wrote in John McCain in 2004 because I was dissatisfied with the Bush Administration. I thought he misled the country into Iraq. My vote amounted to nothing of course, since McCain wasn't running and Texas does not count those votes.

So when McCain won the nomination in 2008, I figured if he was good enough for me in 2004, he was good enough for me in 2008. When all the controversies about Barack Obama came in the news, I studied his views and came to the conclusion he was a really smart, talented, sincere guy who held a lot of views which I found somewhere between wrong (on role of government, economic ideas) and abhorrent (abortion).

When McCain picked Sarah Palin, a dark horse whose name I already had heard, I thought it was a brilliant pick to revitalize the base and bring young new talent to the forefront of the GOP. At least, I thought that at first. Then I found out that she knows absolutely nothing about national issues. I mean, zero. People who read magazines at the doctor's office know more than she does. She might as well be a goat herder in Pakistan.

Now I don't think you need to be Patrick Henry Moynihan to run for Vice President, but I can't abide total ignorance, no matter how much people at rallies love her.

This made me doubt McCain's judgment. Was he just that desperate? Even so, this is a campaign for President of the United States, and I at least expect it to be taken seriously by the candidates. That was not a serious pick.

Then the economic crisis came down. This was something I kind of anticipated a few years ago. The housing market seemed totally out of whack exactly the same way the stock market was out of whack in 2000. Even though the economy was "strong," it looked like it was all on paper due to easy credit. So when it finally fell, I wasn't shocked. I didn't understand right away exactly why all these banks were failing, but I studied and figured it out.

Then I contrasted the behavior of the candidates. John McCain pulled a stunt where he "suspended" his campaign to work on a rescue package for the credit markets. Then the Republicans shot it down, and blamed Nancy Pelosi for making a partisan speech, an excuse that made no sense whatsoever. They were afraid of getting voted out is the reality, just like the 40% of Democrats who voted no!

Then the second debate came. By this time, I had read about credit default swaps and other derivatives, and understood how the deregulation ended up magnifying risk and endangering the financial system. When I listened to the debate, it was clear to me that at least Obama understood the crisis, while John McCain still really had no idea what was going on.

I started reading economists. Paul Krugman, who I'd long dismissed as a partisan hack, seemed to have the best handle on the crisis, and theories that explained both what was happening, and why the Fed and other central banks were doing what they were doing. Other left-of-center economists were similarly on top of things. Right-wing economists like Donald Luskin ranged between wrong and ignorant. I learned about Krugman's theory of the "reverse-S" curve and multiple macroeconomic equilibria. The best the right could do was blame the crisis on a bill President Carter passed. My intelligence was thoroughly insulted. At this point, I began questioning my right-wing economic beliefs. Do Republicans even believe them? I began to think that the free market is just a hypothetical that cannot exist in real life due to human nature, and that there is just good and bad regulation. I began to consider Obama's economic views.

In Iraq, though I believe and hope the war is coming to a positive conclusion for the Iraqis, I am ambivalent about whether in sum it served American interests. I don't think Iraq will spark a democratic renaissance in the world; rather, I think a big part of Bush's legacy is the discrediting and retreat of democratic regimes in the world since the Iraq invasion. I am not satisfied with "resource security" as a justification either on moral or economic grounds. So, while I can agree with McCain's view that we need to make sure what has been achieved in Iraq, I also agree with Obama that what is happening in Afghanistan/Pakistan is more pertinent to our national interest.

On things like en lements, Medicare is quite obviously going to bankrupt the country, and neither party is willing to talk about that honestly. We're already swimming in debt and the Baby Boomers have hardly started retiring! We have a serious case on unreality. Our current system combines the disadvantages of the free market and socialist systems with few of the advantages. I don't think McCain has any ideas; Obama's socialist plans leave me wondering whether we will have an expensive, high-tax, high-service plan that consumes a whole bunch of GDP, or a cheap, low-tax, low-service plan that basically makes medical innovation cease and doctors go elsewhere. But at least he has a plan.

On social issues, I tend to agree with Republicans, at least weakly. I don't have the same views on imposing Christian ideals on the government as some do. I do not think young-earth creationism should be taught in science class, or Sunday school for that matter. I think social consevatives are nostalgic for a past that never actually existed. But the one thing I strongly oppose is abortion, because I believe it is murdering a human being. I would give up capital punishment to get rid of abortion. I would support spending money on social programs if they would get rid of abortion. I honestly struggle to understand how people think that it is acceptable.

I know Obama has talked about working together to reduce the number of abortions. If that happened, each life that would be saved is precious and valuable. But he and I still differ on the moral monstrosity of abortion.

I agree with Federalist Society ideas on the role of the judiciary. I believe in restraining the role of government most of the time. I hope John McCain would nominate more John Roberts types to the bench. I know Obama would nominate more Ginsburgs. I would hate to see the Court go back in the direction of making stuff up out of thin air a la Griswold v. Connecticut, or citing foreign law to make U.S. precedent.

So on the issues, I still lean McCain, but am considering Obama like I never thought I would. If Obama were not so pro-abortion, I might actually switch.

Now, the behavior of some conservatives might push me over the edge anyway. I'm not talking about McCain-Palin rallies as reported in the media. I'm talking about people I know personally and once respected, becoming openly racist, and making jokes about assassinating President Obama. People who talk about a military coup as maybe a good idea. People who start stockpiling guns and ammunition. I don't want to be on their side.

So maybe I vote third-party?

I read your commentary, as you are one of the 4/5 I do care reading.
I do share your views on most of your analysis, particularly on the choice of Palin as VP.

I have no business telling people how to vote here, as I'm not a US citizen.

Nevertheless, I will give you my view on how the results could be perceived in other parts of the world.
There is ample consensus that the Bush's presidency will be regarded one of -if not the- worst in US history.
Th financial crisis is far from over yet.
The US have doubled the federal debt. It is now close to GDP.
The US are at war with no end in sight.
They got trapped in a country -Afganisthan- from which nobody has EVER escaped victorious.
I will add that I do believe that McCain is a decent man, that would have done a decent president in "normal" times.
I will also add that some of the things I heard from Obama in foreign policy are naif at best.
However, 4 more years of Republican White House would be rationally inexplicable to non US citizens.

And I have the tendency to believe that that includes a lot of people that will be supposed to lend US money. Serious money.
Which the US sorely need if it has to improve the management of the crisis.

[Mr. Peabody]

I'm not sure you want to catch up on it...

I only read the first page. What'd I miss?

[romad_20]

[2centsworth]

I only read the first page. What'd I miss?

read it, it's fun.

[ElNono]

I only read the first page. What'd I miss?

A lot... I would recommend reading it through... it's a classic thread

[romad_20]

I only read the first page. What'd I miss?

[Bartleby]

Page 4 has some great posts.

[Shastafarian]

A lot... I would recommend reading it through... it's a classic thread

Yeah I haven't seen a beating like this since Rodney King.




What? Too cliché?

[SpursFanFirst]

I always knew the Anti Christ would be a Spurs fan.

Good stuff!

[Mr. Peabody]

Yeah, this was a great thread.

[Jim C.]

If you can't even articulate a single point that concerns you, it is by definition paranoia. (Possibly delusional paranoia, but i am ot a doctor.) That's really sad.

[romad_20]

I'm so confused now about my vote, though. I could go with a 3rd party or get in with the anti-christ crowd now so I don't suffer as much under his dark reign.

[AntiChrist]

This thread is best enjoyed with some Iron Maiden or Slayer playing in the background.

[Findog]

If you can't even articualte a single point that concerns you, it is by definition paranoia. (Possibly delusional paranoia, but i am ot a doctor.) That's really sad.

Welcome to Spurstalk.

Fear and paranoia are all McCain has left. They've tried secret Muslim, terrorist, under the sway of Reverend Wright, anti-American, socialist...

The only card they have left to play is "He's a and Mic e is a beard" card.

[Shastafarian]

This thread is best enjoyed with some Iron Maiden or Slayer playing in the background.

Go to page 4. I posted a nice video for you.

[ElNono]

If you can't even articulate a single point that concerns you, it is by definition paranoia. (Possibly delusional paranoia, but i am ot a doctor.) That's really sad.

Welcome

[Mr. Peabody]

I'm so confused now about my vote, though. I could go with a 3rd party or get in with the anti-christ crowd now so I don't suffer as much under his dark reign.

"Ladies and gentlemen, uh, we've just lost the picture, but what we've seen speaks for itself. The Corvair spacecraft has apparently been taken over- 'conquered' if you will- by a master race of giant space ants. It's difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume the captive Earthman or merely enslave them. One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves."

[DarkReign]

This thread is best enjoyed with some Iron Maiden or Slayer playing in the background.

How coincidental...no bull , I read this post listening to Slayer. Disciple off the God Hates Us All album.

Those that know me know I dont bull or lie. Im not lying about this. Ive been on a kick with this album for quite some time. I was really surprised to see it came out in 2001.

The irony is thick. And no, the troll isnt mine. I dont have any. timvp can attest.