Your Vote, Your Reasons

[Extra Stout]

Why does your morality and value system depend on supernatural miracles? Would your core values crumble if someone with a time machine definitively proves Jesus didn't perform miracles or rise from the dead? Would you descend into nihilistic depravity?

Christianity is not primarily a system of morality. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is more like a system of morality.

[Drachen]

Reading comprehension....you lack it.

I don't want proof, and the kind of proof that it would take for me to believe in Christianity does not exist at this moment in time.

If you understood how to read you'd see that I was explaining to Stout that the burden of proof is not on me to disprove the historicity of the account of Christ as stated in the NT Gospels, but on him to prove to me that his claim is correct. Clearly this went way over your head, you jumped to the part of my quote which said "you have to prove to me" and decided that was enough for you to draw another asinine conclusion.

We're going in circles here. You don't understand what I'm telling you, and I clearly have no idea where you are drawing your conclusions from.

Ok, let me try to clear this up between you two.
TheMadHatter, Don't think about these last 52 (or 53 or so) pages, brand spanking new subject. What exactly would be the proof that would be required for you to believe that Jesus lived, was the son of God (this proof would obviously have to prove to you that God exists), etc. etc.? I don't care if you think it exists or not. What kind of proof do you require?

[angel_luv]

Hmm.. interesting. Thanks for the answer. If I may, a followup...

When you talk to him, is it a formal thing? Like, by the bedside, on your knees, hands in prayer? Or just a quiet mental note to him? And do you think you hear a 'reply' of sorts? Or is it just 'understood' that he's listening and so you feel he will guide your heart in some other way then a 'voice'?

Just quiet mental notes, mostly. Although I pray aloud also at times.


Some prayers are more formal. For example, at meals, my family will hold hands and pray.
But most often I pray while driving, doing chores, exercising- just as I carry on all other conversations while in the midst of going about daily life.


I don't audibly hear a voice back but do sense Jesus guide me through the Bible, through words of others, through opportunities that become available to me etc.

[ElNono]

Well, society is not really possible without these rules. That's why I believe that we can and should be moral without any external promises of salvation or threats of damnation.

I actually subscribe to the idea that religion had it's historical impact as a 'crowd control' system when we obviously didn't advance as a modern civilization yet. While I don't necessarily think it was the only factor building our current civil system, I think it did do it's part to stop barbaric behavior of the past.
Now, under that theory, Religion would become more and more obsolete as we progress further in our civil evolution. So, we'll see.

[ratm1221]

Ask him for some proof about Beowulf too.

Anyway, some real time do entation of Jesus's adventures would be good. Some dude following him around writing everything he says. I mean that would make sense right? You would want to capture every single letter of a walking god.

Truth is, Jesus only had maybe 1,000 followers. This crap where he addressed masses is idiotic sensationalization.

[DarkReign]

Son, do you have examples of him owning himself handy? That'd be a fun read.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...3&postcount=51

[Extra Stout]

Excellent post. Sums up my thoughts for the most part.

You are humble enough to admit that it really comes down to "what you think is the most likely thing". I would ask a follow up question.

Do you believe that there is a possibility your beliefs could very well be wrong?

Of course I do. Sometimes I go through periods of doubt. Mother Teresa went through some terrible periods of doubt.

[timvp]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...3&postcount=51

Thanks for that laugh. Perhaps I was wrong about TheMadHatter after all.

[PixelPusher]

Christianity is not primarily a system of morality. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is more like a system of morality.

System, shmystem...what about your core values? Are they tethered or independent of your belief in this particular brand of supernaturalism?

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

For the record I hate all of you. I can't find my Jesus Christ Superstar CDs and I can't stop singing it. It's like Chinese water torture with an ALW score.

[Mr. Peabody]

So how would you define a 'big miracle'? Keeping in mind the physical limitations of Times Square, of course.

Maybe staying under water for 17 minutes, encasing himself in ice for a week, reading minds or levitating would be enough. Crap, I'm still talking about David Blaine.

But, yeah, that's the issue. What "miracle" is enough? Also, I would think that "miracles" aren't possible to some people and would automatically be disbelieved.

[CuckingFunt]

For the record I hate all of you. I can't find my Jesus Christ Superstar CDs and I can't stop singing it. It's like Chinese water torture with an ALW score.

I got dragged to a production of Starlight Express when I was a child. In short... Andrew Lloyd Weber is worse than Chinese water torture.

[anakha]

Truth is, Jesus only had maybe 1,000 followers. This crap where he addressed masses is idiotic sensationalization.

Just out of curiosity - link?

[Extra Stout]

System, shmystem...what about your core values? Are they tethered or independent of your belief in this particular brand of supernaturalism?

I don't think I would start eating babies, but if I had to guess, I think I would become a lot less disciplined about consciously putting others before myself, devoting time and resources to that, etc. It takes me a lot of discipline and practice to do that consistently, and my faith is my motivation for submitting to that discipline and practice. I imagine I would stop praying and stop meditating on God's will for the universe and how I might fit in to it, and think more about trivial matters.

In sum, I think I would become more selfish, enough so that people would notice, but not enough so as to make myself loathsome.

[Tully365]

Or you could take this view of things:

"Everything is a miracle. It is a miracle that one does not dissolve in one's bath like a lump of sugar."

~Pablo Picasso

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I got dragged to a production of Starlight Express when I was a child. In short... Andrew Lloyd Weber is worse than Chinese water torture.

*hangs head* I actually like a lot of it.

Well, not Starlight...or Cats....or....

Okay look I *really* like JCS, okay!

[anakha]

Maybe staying under water for 17 minutes, encasing himself in ice for a week, reading minds or levitating would be enough. Crap, I'm still talking about David Blaine.

I never looked at Blaine's stuff in the same way after a local channel showed a Blaine street magic episode - immediately after a "Street Magic: Exposed" special.

[Mr. Peabody]

I actually subscribe to the idea that religion had it's historical impact as a 'crowd control' system when we obviously didn't advance as a modern civilization yet. While I don't necessarily think it was the only factor building our current civil system, I think it did do it's part to stop barbaric behavior of the past.
Now, under that theory, Religion would become more and more obsolete as we progress further in our civil evolution. So, we'll see.

Well, that would seem to discount the personal comfort that people derive from religion. I mean, western religion is more than just a set of rules for society, it is also a promise that no matter what is wrong in your life everything is under control and that ultimately, you will be okay. That has value outside of the rules for maintaining an efficient society.

[timvp]

I don't think I would start eating babies, but if I had to guess, I think I would become a lot less disciplined about consciously putting others before myself, devoting time and resources to that, etc. It takes me a lot of discipline and practice to do that consistently, and my faith is my motivation for submitting to that discipline and practice. I imagine I would stop praying and stop meditating on God's will for the universe and how I might fit in to it, and think more about trivial matters.

In sum, I think I would become more selfish, enough so that people would notice, but not enough so as to make myself loathsome.

That's a pretty damn good answer to a tough question. Too bad not all posters in this thread respond accordingly when their feet are put to the fire . . .

[anakha]

That's a pretty damn good answer to a tough question. Too bad not all posters in this thread respond accordingly when their feet are put to the fire . . .

That's just begging for an Anti-Christ Obama appearance.

[Mr. Peabody]

I never looked at Blaine's stuff in the same way after a local channel showed a Blaine street magic episode - immediately after a "Street Magic: Exposed" special.

I prefer street magic to the stage magic big production stuff David Copperfield does. Street magic takes a lot of practice, dexterity, and showmanship to pull off. The person is a few feet from you and you only have a few small props. You are the one creating the illusion of magic. The stuff that Copperfield does is just an issue of how much you want to spend on the prop and it's the prop that creates the illusion.

[anakha]

I like prefer street magic to the stage magic big production stuff David Copperfield does. Street magic takes a lot of practice, dexterity, and showmanship to pull off. The person is a few feet from you and you only have a few small props. You are the one creating the illusion of magic. The stuff that Copperfield does is just an issue of how much you want to spend on the prop and it's the prop that creates the illusion.

Agree on most of Blaine's street stuff - except for the 'levitation' trick, which was as much camera editing as anything else.

[PixelPusher]

I don't think I would start eating babies, but if I had to guess, I think I would become a lot less disciplined about consciously putting others before myself, devoting time and resources to that, etc. It takes me a lot of discipline and practice to do that consistently, and my faith is my motivation for submitting to that discipline and practice. I imagine I would stop praying and stop meditating on God's will for the universe and how I might fit in to it, and think more about trivial matters.

In sum, I think I would become more selfish, enough so that people would notice, but not enough so as to make myself loathsome.

After leaving the church, I had the opposite experience. I found I that love, compassion, forgiveness, and integrity meant more to me, now that I embrace those values as my own, and not something I was compelled to do while under the great surveillance camera in the sky.

[Mr. Peabody]

Agree on most of Blaine's street stuff - except for the 'levitation' trick, which was as much camera editing as anything else.

Yeah. He pissed me off with that trick in his special. That was the only trick where it was obvious that he used camera tricks and edited video to make it seem more spectacular. The actual trick makes it look like you are levitating a few inches off the ground. The special made seem as if he was four or five feet in the air.

I'm kind of a magic geek. I used to do a lot of street magic when I was a bartender. I used it as way of getting more tips. Nothing like making drunks believe you could multiply coins by merely flicking your thumbs or restore torn up packs of sugar by squeezing them in your fist.

The cards tricks were always harder because half the time those drunk ers couldn't remember their original card. You'd get to the end of a really cool trick and ask them "Was this your card?" and they wouldn't be able to remember.

[Drachen]

Ok, so I have two more things to say now that I finally caught up. First to PixelPusher, Jesus is KING of Kings meaning he RULES the Kings, ipso facto, he is a Spur.

Secondly, and this just came to me out of nowhere. If God is Fair and Just, and Jesus did indeed exist and did perform all of his miracles, isn't it a little unfair that his followers have a leg up as far as "faith" by the fact that they were able to witness these miracles personally and the rest of us poor souls only get to read about it 2000 years later? Doesn't the fact that He doesnt visit me (and you) personally and in the flesh, and perform some miracles prove that God is at least mildly exclusive and unjust?
Like I said, this is not some basis of my belief system, just something I literally just came up with.