Your Vote, Your Reasons

[ElNono]

So by that logic, I can walk into a VFW hall, grab old glory, burn it and put it out with my piss. And if those old guys take offense they are being intolerant?

Is this 'old glory' yours? If it is, then there's nothing preventing you from doing whatever you want with it. And no, it wouldn't be disrespectful, because it's your property and you do whatever you want with it.
If it's not yours, then you're destroying their property, thus I can see why they would be pissed.

[romad_20]

So by that logic, I can walk into a VFW hall, grab old glory, burn it and put it out with my piss. And if those old guys take offense they are being intolerant?

Old Glory. Get it right















I'm just f-ing with you

[Trainwreck2100]

Is this 'old glory' yours? If it is, then there's nothing preventing you from doing whatever you want with it. And no, it wouldn't be disrespectful, because it's your property and you do whatever you want with it.
If it's not yours, then you're destroying their property, thus I can see why they would be pissed.

in this situation it's mine,

But i can see why we don't coexist, if you can somehow condone pissing on the US flag in front of veterans no less.

[ElNono]

in this situation it's mine,

But i can see why we don't coexist, if you can somehow condone pissing on the US flag.

I don't condone anything... But if it's your flag and you want to piss on it, who am I to tell you otherwise?

[LnGrrrR]

I have fears and doubts at times, ones just like the ones you cited.

A favorite Scripture in times of doubt for me is




The times when I experience pain, fear, and doubt are the ones in which I am most grateful to have faith.

I have the blessed assurance that the same God who came through for Abraham, Moses, and me numerous times already along my life's journey will continue to make a way for me.

If your Faith gives you strength, that's wonderful I think. I just caution you not to let Faith be your ONLY guide. As shown above, God respects those who think critically and show good reasoning. Therefore, I suggest that you not only vote based on how faithful the candidates proclaim themselves, but by their actions. Which one seems to follow the tenets that God has laid out more? That should seemingly be more important to you than what each candidate claims.

Would you rather elect someone who believed in God, but did not follow his tenets (lied, cheated, etc), or elect someone who DIDN'T believe in God, yet still managed to be a good family man, gave to charity often, and was truthful?

[angel_luv]

Angel_Luv, do you ever question God's word?

After all, some other rather important people have..

"The first time we hear Abraham engage God in conversation, God has just promised to give him a great reward (Genesis 15:1). But Abraham responds with doubt. “O Lord God, what will you give me, since I am childless?” (Genesis 15:2)."

"Despite seeing a bush burning with fire but not consumed, despite seeing his shepherd’s staff transformed into a serpent, and despite seeing his hand become leprous and then healed of leprosy, Moses fires back question after question and challenge after challenge to the God revealed specially and uniquely to him: “I AM THAT I AM; I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE.” Moses appears not to recognize his conversation partner, the God of his father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, as he questions God repeatedly in their dramatic conversation: “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” (Exodus 3:11). “Now they may say to me, ‘What is God’s name?’ What shall I say to them?” (Exodus 3:13). “What if they will not believe me, or listen to what I say?” (Exodus 4:1). “Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue” (Exodus 4:10). “Please Lord, send someone else to do it” (Exodus 4:13). "

From http://www.rzim.org/GlobalElements/G...3/Default.aspx

Note to Angel: I'm not trying to "trick" you; I'm merely pointing out that if God exists, I think he appreciates critical thinking more than blind faith.

Note the end of the chapter in Exodus you cited...

Then the LORD said, "If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first miraculous sign, they may believe the second.
But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground. The water you take from the river will become blood on the ground."

Moses said to the LORD, "O Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue."

The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ?

Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say."

But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it."

Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you.
You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do.
He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it."

If you read the whole chapter, God was very patient with Moses- gave him confirmation to go with His instructions, but Moses kept coming back with lame excuses.

I say lame because one would think Moses would not doubt a God who spoke to him through a burning bush, turned a staff into a snake, and cured a leperous hand all in a matter of minutes.

God is not against reason. God understands that we as humans are afraid.
What God is against is us exalting our reason and/ or our fear above His Word.

In contrast to Moses, Abraham, though he first responded in fear, set his preconceived ideas aside, took God at His Word, and God was pleased with that.

After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:
"Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,
your very great reward. "
But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?"
And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir."

Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir."
5He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

[Trainwreck2100]

I don't condone anything... But if it's your flag and you want to piss on it, who am I to tell you otherwise?

Oh BTW I didn't quite understand your answer to this, if i piss on an American flag after i set it on fire in front of veterans, are they intolerant for taking offense to that?

[ElNono]

Oh BTW I didn't quite understand your answer to this, if i piss on an American flag after i set it on fire in front of veterans, are they intolerant for taking offense to that?

That's because you're a little slow. Let me put it on a little more detail.
Doing what you described is protected speech under the 1st amendment of the cons ution. And while they're free to express their anger at you from doing that, they're also being intolerant to you for exercising your right. Being intolerant is not a crime. Is simply thinking your moral values are more important than somebody else.

[ploto]

I do not like the ministers who preach a Gospel of prosperity as if the rewards Jesus promised are material. I understand that this is very popular and draws people to their churches, but I do not think it is what is intended. When Jesus speaks of all I will receive, I believe they are to be spiritual gifts- mercy, compassion, forgiveness,-- not a raise, or a house, or a car.

As someone asked, I do not pray for specific outcomes, but instead for me to face each situation in my life with grace, compassion, and the mercy with which God deals with me. I think it is an immature faith to believe it is about what I get out of it. I also think it is dangerous to go back to an Old Testament notion that people's position in life are somehow indicative of their faith. Jesus himself disputed those notions with the man born blind and the disussion of the rich man entering heaven.

I truly hope Angel, that your faith is not dependent upon you getting what you want because a faith of that sort is not very deep.

I also do not agree with the notion that if anyone is elected then that is whom God chose. That is a dangerous notion in a democratic society and a world in which we make our own choices of our will. All the election means is that he/she is whom the voters chose- not God.

[angel_luv]

Would you rather elect someone who believed in God, but did not follow his tenets (lied, cheated, etc), or elect someone who DIDN'T believe in God, yet still managed to be a good family man, gave to charity often, and was truthful?

Neither is a disireable candidate in my book- the first because he is all talk and no action and, therefore, is no good from the start and the second because I believe there is no sustenace outside of Jesus and I want to elect someone with long term great character.



I do use logic ( contary to what many posters on here may believe ) but God's word always comes first with me.

Because it is the first example that comes to mind...

A lot of people might feel it is logical to have sex with a person before choosing to marry them.
I can understand that sort of thinking- it makes sense to me, from a purely practical standpoint.
However, I believe that following the Bible, which says to save sex until marriage, is the better course of action because God blesses obedience.

So where some might view me as being at a disadvantage for remaining a virgin until my wedding night, I trust God that I am in truth benefiting my marriage by my adherence to the standards God has set for me.

[manufor3]

mccain will be anything you want in return for a vote. pro-life, pro-choice, you tell him and he'll say ok.

true fact

[Trainwreck2100]

That's because you're a little slow. Let me put it on a little more detail.
Doing what you described is protected speech under the 1st amendment of the cons ution. And while they're free to express their anger at you from doing that, they're also being intolerant to you for exercising your right. Being intolerant is not a crime. Is simply thinking your moral values are more important than somebody else.

You condone pissing on the flag in front of veterans. I thought i was ed up but damn. Some of those guys have 1 arm.

[ElNono]

You condone pissing on the flag in front of veterans. I thought i was ed up but damn. Some of those guys have 1 arm.

The US Cons ution does. If you don't like it there's plenty of other countries to go to.

[angel_luv]

I do not like the ministers who preach a Gospel of prosperity as if the rewards Jesus promised are material. I understand that this is very popular and draws people to their churches, but I do not think it is what is intended. When Jesus speaks of all I will receive, I believe they are to be spiritual gifts- mercy, compassion, forgiveness,-- not a raise, or a house, or a car.

As someone asked, I do not pray for specific outcomes, but instead for me to face each situation in my life with grace, compassion, and the mercy with which God deals with me. I think it is an immature faith to believe it is about what I get out of it. I also think it is dangerous to go back to an Old Testament notion that people's position in life are somehow indicative of their faith. Jesus himself disputed those notions with the man born blind and the disussion of the rich man entering heaven.

I truly hope Angel, that your faith is not dependent upon you getting what you want because a faith of that sort is not very deep.

I also do not agree with the notion that if anyone is elected then that is whom God chose. That is a dangerous notion in a democratic society and a world in which we make our own choices of our will. All the election means is that he/she is whom the voters chose- not God.

I pray for specific outcomes because it helps me recognize it when God gives specific answers, which He always does, even if the answer is not now or a flat out no.

I believe that God wants us to have both virtue as well as physical blessings, Ploto.
I stand with you in the agreement that we are to first seek God. But I know from a lifetime of experience that when I first seek God, He adds His blessings onto my life.

Think of how people are as parents- they want their kids to have food, education and get good jobs but also delight in buying their kids cars, clothes, electronics.

If a parent desires all the best for his/ her offspring, how much more our benevolent God!

My faith is strong but not as deep as I would like it to be. Thank God it deepens daily. Having my prayers answers strengthened my faith, just as having a friend come through strengthens human friendships.

Because there is free will, God will let America elect whomever they choose- just like he allowed Israel to have a king.

My prayer is that whomever gets elected will become the president God wants him to be. I have faith that, that will happen and that God will protect & bless me and my until it does.

[Trainwreck2100]

The US Cons ution does. If you don't like it there's plenty of other countries to go to.

It's your right to piss on the flag, in front of veterans, and it's not being disrespectful to boot. I'd wager a good many of ACLU's lawyers agree with you on the first part, but not the second

[Shastafarian]

No, because God is a God of order. He does not contradict the Bible when He speaks to peoples' hearts.

This is the last question of this kind I am going to answer for you.

You are mocking me and I am not going to dignify that sort of behavior with a response.

No I was being serious. Is the sabbath Sunday or Saturday?

[LnGrrrR]

That's because you're a little slow. Let me put it on a little more detail.
Doing what you described is protected speech under the 1st amendment of the cons ution. And while they're free to express their anger at you from doing that, they're also being intolerant to you for exercising your right. Being intolerant is not a crime. Is simply thinking your moral values are more important than somebody else.

I don't think it's intolerance to get mad at someone for doing something like that, as I think displays of that sort are intolerance of a sort themselves. I can see no political/social protest that would be made by urinating on a flag that couldn't be done in another way. I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed; just that veterans wouldn't be considered 'intolerant' any more than blacks mad at KKK members could be considered 'intolerant'.

[LnGrrrR]

Neither is a disireable candidate in my book- the first because he is all talk and no action and, therefore, is no good from the start and the second because I believe there is no sustenace outside of Jesus and I want to elect someone with long term great character.

I do use logic ( contary to what many posters on here may believe ) but God's word always comes first with me.

Because it is the first example that comes to mind...

A lot of people might feel it is logical to have sex with a person before choosing to marry them.
I can understand that sort of thinking- it makes sense to me, from a purely practical standpoint.
However, I believe that following the Bible, which says to save sex until marriage, is the better course of action because God blesses obedience.

So where some might view me as being at a disadvantage for remaining a virgin until my wedding night, I trust God that I am in truth benefiting my marriage by my adherence to the standards God has set for me.

Trust me, you're missing out

I never understood why a God would need obedience/submission in order to validate the worth of a person (other than being a jealous God, of course). I can't tend to understand it when people do either. But you are free to your beliefs.

[ElNono]

It's your right to piss on the flag, in front of veterans, and it's not being disrespectful to boot. I'd wager a good many of ACLU's lawyers agree with you on the first part, but not the second

Flag desecration in front of veterans has been done before. Defacing a flag is protected speech under the US Cons ution as established in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), and reaffirmed in U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990). I'm fairly sure the ACLU lawyers are well aware of that.

[Shastafarian]

I'm equating you using a deity's name in one case and not the other. God's name is God not god. god can be any number of gods, beit zeus, mercury, or any other ones planets are named after. Go look in a dictionary and you will see there is a difference between God and god.

Then you're doing the same thing. Maybe you should start using Jehovah or Yahweh.

[ElNono]

I don't think it's intolerance to get mad at someone for doing something like that, as I think displays of that sort are intolerance of a sort themselves. I can see no political/social protest that would be made by urinating on a flag that couldn't be done in another way. I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed; just that veterans wouldn't be considered 'intolerant' any more than blacks mad at KKK members could be considered 'intolerant'.

I'm not saying it's wrong for them to get mad at the act, or even express their anger (free speech). But by ing about it they're establishing their morals above the morals of the person carrying the act. And please, my understanding is that what the KKK did was illegal. This isn't.

[Trainwreck2100]

Flag desecration in front of veterans have been done before. Defacing a flag is protected speech under the US Cons ution as established in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), and reaffirmed in U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990). I'm fairly sure the ACLU lawyers are well aware of that.

yeah see i said

It's your right to piss on the flag, in front of veterans, and it's not being disrespectful to boot. I'd wager a good many of ACLU's lawyers agree with you on the first part,

.

i didn't need to google it either to know its a right

I said they wouldn't agree on it being disrespectful, some might think it is.

[LnGrrrR]

Think of how people are as parents- they want their kids to have food, education and get good jobs but also delight in buying their kids cars, clothes, electronics.

If a parent desires all the best for his/ her offspring, how much more our benevolent God!

In response:

Luke 18:24 Jesus watched him go and then said to his disciples, "How hard it is for rich people to get into the Kingdom of God!

Luke 18:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"

[ElNono]

yeah see i said .

i didn't need to google it either to know its a right

I said they wouldn't agree on it being disrespectful, some might think it is.

I never claimed that the veterans wouldn't be pissed off about it, just as you are whenever I refer to your god as god.

[angel_luv]

The US Cons ution does. If you don't like it there's plenty of other countries to go to.

The US Cons ution allows it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it condones it.