The Official: Show some love to MATT BONNER!

[Obstructed_View]

That was a double-team on the block. Bad play but he obviously expected help.

You do know it is possible to root for a player without tearing down another play on his same team, right? You tearing down Tolliver to prop Bonner is the poor man's version of the CoM's who tears down Parker to prop Ginobili.

While I agree that there are a couple of people that are doing exactly what you say they're doing, you do know it's possible to point out when a guy makes a mistake and not be tearing him down, right? Whether you intend to or not, you're making it sound like Tolliver isn't making mistakes.

[timvp]

While I agree that there are a couple of people that are doing exactly what you say they're doing, you do know it's possible to point out when a guy makes a mistake and not be tearing him down, right? Whether you intend to or not, you're making it sound like Tolliver isn't making mistakes.

Sure. I criticize players all the time. But if someone is overly hyping one player's mistakes while at the same time giving heavy praise to another player, and it happens continuously, I'd expect there is an agenda.

Regarding Tolliver, he made a number of mistakes tonight. He rotated off of Beno when there wasn't a help defender in sight. And twice he was in the wrong spot offensively, causing a forced turnover on one possession. On the other one, he got bailed out by Hill's jumper.

[z0sa]

Look at the thread you started after the Rockets game.

That's hilarious. You classify Tolliver barely playing and getting a steal for a dunk as "sh!tty play" and now try to paint yourself as an unbiased observer. You've torn down Tolliver to praise Bonner, if you've realized it or not.

The post you speak of: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109818

And Pop, thanks for pulling your head out of your ass, benching Tolliver for his lackadaisical D in the fourth quarter against the bucks + his ty play last night, and inserting someone who can actually get the job done night in and night out, should you give him the chance.

The main point I was trying to make. I trusted people wouldn't take it so much as a personal attack on Tolliver, as stating Bonner deserves more minutes than any other big at this point - hence the Pop comments.

I ask: Why did Pop bench him and bring in someone with the exact same skillset? And I made that thread the very next game after he ed up, not before. Did Tolliver deserve to be called out for his play against Houston? Maybe not. But Bonner definitely deserved his props, which is the main reason I made that thread, the other reason being Pop is foolish to not give him minutes.

And regarding those two Mbah a Moute plays you continually reference, go back and watch the tape. On the second open jumper, it was actually Kurt Thomas who didn't go out on him. So either both Tolliver and Thomas both made the exact same mistake or the Spurs *gasp* had it in their scouting report to not defend a player who is a 20% outside shooter.

Who was planning on boxing him out then? It was going to be a long rebound, don't you think? We already have enough trouble boarding without our big guys refusing to box their men out.

I never said it wasn't part of the scouting report Timvp. I put more weight in the fact no one got out on him the second time, after just swishing a jumper from the exact same spot. He is still at fault for not even making an effort this early in the season, with PT as unguaranteed as it is. I admit I thought it was Tolliver both times, but notice Tolliver has received about 6.5 minutes of playing time in both games since the Bucks. I think Pop is agreeing with me here that he's shown lapses.

Your whole reasoning for tearing down Tolliver is built on a false premise. Tolliver and Bonner aren't competing. The compe ion is between Oberto, Tolliver, Bonner and Thomas. Just look at tonight's game as an example. Bonner got Thomas' minutes. There's plenty of room for both Bonner and Tolliver to get minutes if both are playing well. It's not an either or situation.

For now, you're correct. But I assume one of two things is going to happen:

1) Ian Mahinmi makes a big splash. I am hoping against hope for this to happen.

2) Kurt Thomas returns to form on a nightly basis.

If either one happens, that leaves room for one more big to have substantial minutes. It's possible Pop splits the burn between Tolliver AND Bonner, but I don't see it happening. Both have the same skillset, and Pop is only going to call on one to fulfill it.

If either one of those two DON'T happen, I'm worried, because Tolliver is not the physical presence we need on the interior, and Bonner is just Bonner.

One last thing:

Tolliver and Bonner aren't competing. The compe ion is between Oberto, Tolliver, Bonner and Thomas.

Bit of an oxymoron, though i understand it. The truth is they are competing, however.

[baseline bum]

I'm afraid if I say anything good about him, he'll go back into the slump he went in when I started giving him props. With that said, Bonner's Florida Gator ass!

[timvp]

The main point I was trying to make.

Not bolding the Tolliver slam doesn't make it any less of a Tolliver slam.

I trusted people wouldn't take it so much as a personal attack on Tolliver, as stating Bonner deserves more minutes than any other big at this point - hence the Pop comments.

Exactly what had Bonner done to "deserve" more minutes than "any other big"? Prior to the Rockets game, he had played poorly all season. In preseason, he was nothing special ... especially when he was playing against starters.

Bonner didn't deserve anything. Pop gave him another shot and he's making the most of it.

I ask: Why did Pop bench him and bring in someone with the exact same skillset?

After watching Tolliver more, his skillset is actually quite different from Bonner's skillset. Tolliver is more mobile on the perimeter, while Bonner is more physical down low and better equipped to hold his position. Tolliver is better at making the hi-low pass, while Bonner is better at making passes out on the perimeter. Tolliver is best defending lighter bigs who can move their feet, while Bonner is best at defending rugged bigs who try to use brute strength. Tolliver seems like a better offensive rebounder than Bonner, but Bonner is a much better defensive rebounder.

Once you delve into their attributes beyond the fact they are both relatively the same size and both like to shoot threes, they are very different.

Did Tolliver deserve to be called out for his play against Houston? Maybe not.

That didn't stop you . . .

But Bonner definitely deserved his props, which is the main reason I made that thread, the other reason being Pop is foolish to not give him minutes.

Again, I don't follow this logic. Instead of giving Pop props for giving Bonner yet another chance, you call him foolish for not playing him more previously? Bonner was horrible to start the season. His trip to the doghouse has seemed to have made him focus and play with more smarts and intensity. I fail to see what ills Pop has done to Bonner.

Who was planning on boxing him out then? It was going to be a long rebound, don't you think? We already have enough trouble boarding without our big guys refusing to box their men out.

Since when do bigs run out from under the basket to box out a player at the three-point line?

I never said it wasn't part of the scouting report Timvp. I put more weight in the fact no one got out on him the second time, after just swishing a jumper from the exact same spot. He is still at fault for not even making an effort this early in the season, with PT as unguaranteed as it is. I admit I thought it was Tolliver both times, but notice Tolliver has received about 6.5 minutes of playing time in both games since the Bucks. I think Pop is agreeing with me here that he's shown lapses.

Eh, I think that's simplifying it. Tolliver was kept in after "failing to defend" the 20% shooter (so was Thomas, for that matter). He came into the game prior to Bonner against the Rockets. To Bonner's credit, he has played very well since being given another shot. I think it's more Bonner playing well than anything Tolliver has done horribly. Plus, the personnel has something to do with it as well. In the last two games, the Spurs have gone against two huge frontcourts. Against all that size, Bonner is more valuable because he's stronger and doesn't get pushed around. Tolliver is more useful against small teams such as Miami, New York and Milwaukee.

For now, you're correct. But I assume one of two things is going to happen:

1) Ian Mahinmi makes a big splash. I am hoping against hope for this to happen.

2) Kurt Thomas returns to form on a nightly basis.

If either one happens, that leaves room for one more big to have substantial minutes. It's possible Pop splits the burn between Tolliver AND Bonner, but I don't see it happening. Both have the same skillset, and Pop is only going to call on one to fulfill it.

If either one of those two DON'T happen, I'm worried, because Tolliver is not the physical presence we need on the interior, and Bonner is just Bonner.

I agree that the situation will change if Mahinmi is able to carve out a niche and if Thomas (or Oberto) start playing better. Next to Duncan, there are about 60 minutes up for grabs.

I think Tolliver is the longest shot to win consistent playing time. Bonner has the inside track on him due to his experience alone. For the sake of the Spurs, hopefully Mahinmi wins minutes because he could provide the aspects the Spurs lack (athleticism, shot blocking, height).

We'll see, though. I think Pop will be fair and give all five of the complementary bigs enough minutes to let the cream rise to the top. Right now, Bonner is making a good case for himself. Tolliver has shown some interesting talents. KT and Oberto have been mediocre but they should hopefully get better as the season progresses.

[Obstructed_View]

:And regarding those two Mbah a Moute plays you continually reference, go back and watch the tape. On the second open jumper, it was actually Kurt Thomas who didn't go out on him. So either both Tolliver and Thomas both made the exact same mistake or the Spurs *gasp* had it in their scouting report to not defend a player who is a 20% outside shooter.

I was just messing with you about the scouting thing because, well, it's fun, but I have to point out that it wasn't KT who was supposed to pick up Moute. I've watched that game enough times that I pretty much have it down by heart.

Bogut went right to the front of the rim when Tolliver showed on the pick and roll, and Thomas picked him up. Tolliver should have rotated to Moute and didn't, quickly realizing he was in the wrong spot and running toward the open shooter. He did a good job on the PnR but just simply picked the wrong guy to run to. On the first jumper he got caught cutting across to stop the dribbler and just ended up on the opposite side of the court from his man. Even though they both resulted in wide open shots, they were completely different mistakes.

The Spurs run that same defense several times a game on pick and roll, and the design is for the second big to pick up the guy going to the rim if the first big shows. The Bucks ran that several times in the first half with Duncan showing and both Tolliver and Oberto picking up Bogut. The Spurs' spacing was really good in the first half where nobody was going to get an open shot even if the rotating guy was late because there'd have been someone else to pick it up. I wouldn't say it was game planning that left the guy that wide open, but after looking at the terrible team defense the Spurs were playing at that point, I wouldn't just put it all on Tolliver by any stretch.

A note on why Tolliver was covering Bogut on that second Moute jumper: KT's PnR defense was embarassingly bad. He went outside Bogut's pick opposite the point guard allowing the guy a lane right to the basket not once, but twice. He also just did a vomitously bad job of blocking out. After watching that fourth quarter a couple of times, I'd rather have had two Anthony Tollivers out there instead of one and Kurt Thomas. There were individual mistakes aplenty in the last 13 minutes of that game, and Toll made up for most of his with hustle.

For the record, I thought that the post by Z0sa talking up Bonner ciriticized Tolliver just as unfairly as a lot of the guys that have been crapping on Bonner. Doing one or the other doesn't make it right. Bonner has put up some stinkers so far this year, so he deserves as much criticism for those as he deserves praise for the last two games. His praise doesn't have to come at the cost of one of his teammates.

[z0sa]

Not bolding the Tolliver slam doesn't make it any less of a Tolliver slam.

I began, and ended the sentence, with Pop bashing. The Tolliver "slam" was in the middle of what most people probably caught as almost primarily a Pop slam. Too bad you consider a "slam" to be calling out one's mistakes, mistakes even you admitted were made.

EDIT: if you really think my thread was made to bash Tolliver, take a look at the "Beno balls on Hill" thread.

Exactly what had Bonner done to "deserve" more minutes than "any other big"? Prior to the Rockets game, he had played poorly all season. In preseason, he was nothing special ... especially when he was playing against starters.

He had a more than decent first half against Phoenix, including guarding Amare better than any Spur could or has. His defense against Dirk was great, just not enough - NO spur would have been enough, except maybe Bowen. His rotations have been chippy, but if you want the real answer to why he deserves more minutes, just take a look at the last two games.

Bonner didn't deserve anything. Pop gave him another shot and he's making the most of it.

Bonner shows nothing but hustle out there, and with PT it was clear to me he would shore up his defensive rotations. He showed far more potential as a contributor than Tolliver or Thomas, and has instead been benched repeatedly over and over. He DESERVED a fair shot instead of an expectation of failure which many, including yourself, had.

Once you delve into their attributes beyond the fact they are both relatively the same size and both like to shoot threes, they are very different.

Their primary weapon for the spurs is their three pointer and their size at 6'10 to defend bigs and rebound. You bloat their differences to make a point.

That didn't stop you . . .

Why do you like this guy so much anyway?

Again, I don't follow this logic. Instead of giving Pop props for giving Bonner yet another chance, you call him foolish for not playing him more previously? Bonner was horrible to start the season. His trip to the doghouse has seemed to have made him focus and play with more smarts and intensity. I fail to see what ills Pop has done to Bonner.

How can you say this? Bonner could have been contributing last season had Pop let him work out the kinks with consistent PT. Its obvious now, especially if Bonner keeps up the intensity. He's spent months in the doghouse. Really, honestly, this argument you're making for Pop holds no water since Bonner has proven him wrong about his iq. Unless he takes a step backwards which would require him to get stupid or lazy (which Bonner has never been lazy, and even if you think hes stupid, he learned the defensive rotations - lets hope he doesn't suffer from amnesia), its safe to say Pop was very wrong in sitting him so long.

Since when do bigs run out from under the basket to box out a player at the three-point line?

The high school three point line you mean? Call me crazy to ask our bigs to be near the free throw line when their man shoots a jumper from outside it.

Eh, I think that's simplifying it. Tolliver was kept in after "failing to defend" the 20% shooter (so was Thomas, for that matter). He came into the game prior to Bonner against the Rockets.

It was already fourth quarter. Pop was not going to bring Matt Bonner in with zero PT in the game. I would have thought him foolish for it, and you know I love Bonner.

To Bonner's credit, he has played very well since being given another shot. I think it's more Bonner playing well than anything Tolliver has done horribly. Plus, the personnel has something to do with it as well. In the last two games, the Spurs have gone against two huge frontcourts. Against all that size, Bonner is more valuable because he's stronger and doesn't get pushed around. Tolliver is more useful against small teams such as Miami, New York and Milwaukee.

Which is my very point. Bonner has the skills we need, the experience in the system to excel, and no lack of heart or hustle. Tolliver should not be playing while Bonner gets no PT.

I agree that the situation will change if Mahinmi is able to carve out a niche and if Thomas (or Oberto) start playing better. Next to Duncan, there are about 60 minutes up for grabs.

I think Tolliver is the longest shot to win consistent playing time. Bonner has the inside track on him due to his experience alone. For the sake of the Spurs, hopefully Mahinmi wins minutes because he could provide the aspects the Spurs lack (athleticism, shot blocking, height).

We'll see, though. I think Pop will be fair and give all five of the complementary bigs enough minutes to let the cream rise to the top. Right now, Bonner is making a good case for himself. Tolliver has shown some interesting talents. KT and Oberto have been mediocre but they should hopefully get better as the season progresses.

[Borosai]

Bonner's gonna destroy KG this year.

[z0sa]

Bump. Out of the last three games Bonner's worst, but defensively he made essentially no mistakes, including a nice block in transition D. If he keeps up the defense, he won't be seeing Pop's doghouse any time soon.

17:25 mins
3-7 FG/A (1-3 3PT)
4 Rebounds
1 AST
1 BLK
2 TO

Go spurs Go!

[Obstructed_View]

First two possessions I saw when Bonner came in, two different guys scored on him. Again, he didn't play bad defense on either play, but I had to laugh.

[T Park]

I thought Bonner was solid tonight.

Shot wasn't there, but the defensive effort was good, and the transistion block was nice.

I really love how hes playing right now.


Keep shooting Matty

[timvp]

Bonner was again pretty good. Although Duncan looked like he wanted to murder him when Bonner missed him wide open after sealing off his man.

[z0sa]

First two possessions I saw when Bonner came in, two different guys scored on him. Again, he didn't play bad defense on either play, but I had to laugh.

I honestly missed his first minute or two of action ing with this laptop ...

They weren't mistakes at least - I can handle him getting scored over, just not lapses that will cause his PT to decrease.

Bonner was again pretty good. Although Duncan looked like he wanted to murder him when Bonner missed him wide open after sealing off his man.

I'm beginning to think you're right about that hi-low pass - but I've seen him make successfully before. I'm more glad Baron didn't steal it from him though

[T Park]

Bonner was again pretty good. Although Duncan looked like he wanted to murder him when Bonner missed him wide open after sealing off his man.

Or that running left handed hook he threw up when Duncan got doubled.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Regardless of how much better Bonner gets in terms of shooting rhythm and defensive position, he still has absolutely no feel for the game in terms of offensive movement and is therefore always going to be a liability. Mookie two thousand ing one is a better passer than Bonner.

[z0sa]

Regardless of how much better Bonner gets in terms of shooting rhythm and defensive position, he still has absolutely no feel for the game in terms of offensive movement and is therefore always going to be a liability. Mookie two thousand ing one is a better passer than Bonner.

You've missed the last couple games before the Clips where, in both, he made excellent cuts down the lane for layups, or that cut to the 3pt line for a three against HOU.

[SequSpur]

You've missed the last couple games before the Clips where, in both, he made excellent cuts down the lane for layups, or that cut to the 3pt line for a three against HOU.

i need some phenergan.

[T Park]

You've missed the last couple games before the Clips where, in both, he made excellent cuts down the lane for layups, or that cut to the 3pt line for a three against HOU.

Hes still stuck back in summer 2007

ignore him.

[Joe Schmoogins]

the RED ROCKET is on FIYAH!

[m33p0]

It's official!

We love us some ROCKET!





















































.... until the next time he sucks that is.

[m33p0]

Regardless of how much better Bonner gets in terms of shooting rhythm and defensive position, he still has absolutely no feel for the game in terms of offensive movement and is therefore always going to be a liability. Mookie two thousand ing one is a better passer than Bonner.

tell george karl that.

[intlspurshk]

AS good as Bonner right now, he and Duncan can't match KG and P, Gasol and Odom, .. may be just enough to beat Yao and Scola

[Joe Schmoogins]

AS good as Bonner right now, he and Duncan can't match KG and P, Gasol and Odom, .. may be just enough to beat Yao and Scola

interesting take...

he sure seemed good enough this afternoon!




Congrats to Bonner on another excellent game. I'm sure it was extra sweet for him in front of the home town crowd.

[SpursFan0728]

props to bonner

[Texas_Ranger]

Matthew