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Walken is the man.The story is so sad I feel like crying along with Steve. I would but I'm laughing my ass off on how PHX fan is screwed now. Look at the way Kerr blew up the Suns. Is he a double agent working for the Spurs? I just love it!
The story is so sad I feel like crying along with Steve. I would but I'm laughing my ass off on how PHX fan is screwed now. Look at the way Kerr blew up the Suns. Is he a double agent working for the Spurs? I just love it!
Walken is the man.The story is so sad I feel like crying along with Steve. I would but I'm laughing my ass off on how PHX fan is screwed now. Look at the way Kerr blew up the Suns. Is he a double agent working for the Spurs? I just love it!
I just think if you're going to maximize the size you have with Amare and Shaq while at the same time maximizing the transition skills of Nash, Barbosa, Richardson, Barnes, Amare and Lopez, then having Shaq play 28 minutes a night off the bench is the only way to do it. He won't be slowing Nash down for more than a handful of minutes a night. He'll get a ton of low-post shots when Amare's out and won't take but two or three of Amare's touches when they play together. Hill will kill second-units.
I think it maximizes touches, skillsets and offensive efficiency.
And yes, it's great to be talking basketball again. I've done a bit here and there, but haven't done a whole lot lately.
Hopefully last night starts something. I love Barnes. I'd really like for them to resign him at year's end for two years or so...
I quite put Phoenix and Houston in the same category. Both teams aren't that good right now but they are damn talented and have a huge upside.
When/if they find a way to reach that upside, that is to say finding an iden y/chemistry and staying healthy, they will be really dangerous teams.
I definitively can see one or both of these teams being at the level of Celtics, Lakers and Cavs in April and Spurs' fans won't be laughing then.
The Suns need a real backup PG and a relentless rebounder from the PF spot to make this happen.
Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson and a slew of 2nd-rounders coming their way are the bait.
Until that time, they'll either be mismatched skills-wise (Nash, Richardson, Hill, Amare and Shaq), a bit thin un front (Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Lopez) or small all over (Nash, Barbosa, Richardson, Barnes, Amare)...
They have potential, yes, but right now they are still flawed.
Nash apparently missed Bell a little too much against LA, he decided to go 2-12 from the field and do his best Bell impression. Bell had become a cancer, Kerr has made some bad decisions, but telling the team to play defense sure as is not one of them. The only reason Bell is in the NBA is because when he was on Philly and Utah his role was to play relentless defense regardless of how many shots he takes. For some reason he thinks now he can slack on defense because in his mind he's a potent offensive player, even though he is about to learn he is not a potent offensive player.
Nash for too long has been above criticism, and the problem is the local Phoenix media makes it so even players like Bell and aMarE are above criticism. When the best player on the team is a 2 time MVP and plays like Nash does, his teammates are basically sent the message, "As long as you score some points, someone else will play defense for you," which is the biggest contributor to the Suns' defensive woes, and also the biggest contributor to everyone on the team wanting to score. I'm not sure about this but based off of what I've read this season it seems like Nash is more concerned with having fun than winning a championship, which explains the way he plays.
If a team is gonna play defense at a championship level like the Spurs or Celtics, it starts with a commitment from the stars of the team and a system where the coach and the players hold each other accountable. They might have gotten rid of D'antoni, but there is still no accountability on that side of the ball.
Parker by no means is a lock down defender, but he fights through screens and plays D exactly the way his coach tells him to. Ray Allen is exactly the same way. If you're a young player like Barbosa and you see the guy on the team you've looked up to for years (Nash) not play a lick of defense, why would you want to play defense?
This post was far too long, but a lot of people are calling the Suns contenders now after J-Rich's debut against Orlando, but this team is not a le contender until Nash, aMarE and Richardson take as much pride on defense and work as hard at defense as Manu Parker and Duncan or KG Ray and Pierce. Being good at offense doesn't mean a player gets to be bad at defense contrary to what aMarE believes.
I actually agree. That's EXACTLY what it sounds like, it's actually worse because the Suns got better with this trade, trading Mobley hurt Orlando. If Nash and Bell wanted to remain on the same team, they would care about defense. Bell being considered a lockdown defender is very similar to Kobe, whereas both cases are purely based off reputation, neither one gives an effort on D anymore, the only difference is Kobe can still be a decent defender without intensity because of athleticism, unless Bell is hustling and playing defense like it's his last game, his lack of talent makes him a defensive liability. Bell being a good defender is a complete myth. When the star on a team doesn't play D it rubs off on everyone.
Lopez shouldn't even be in the NBA, that was a wasted pick by Kerr. Every time the Suns get a new crappy player, the media makes something up about him that is not true. When they got Skinner it was like they got Bill Russell because of the "great defense" he plays. When they got Barnes, he could play "Marion-like defense" (that's an exact quote). When they got Banks, it was because of his great shooting.
The Lopez thing I find hilarious, particularly because Kerr got so many people to buy into it. Because Lopez is white, everyone assumed his game was extremely polished for a rookie and he was a very intelligent player. Kerr's plan worked to perfection, draft a big white guy, make sure the sports writers you have wrapped around your fingers write a few articles about his "NBA ready rebounding and defense," and the fans will find it brilliant.
Lopez is 7 feet tall and played in the smallest conference in the NCAA, the Pac-10. He averaged a grand 5 rebounds per game in college. I'm curious Jmarks, why should he start?
According to confirmed reports, Bell requested the trade because he was upset he was rebuffed when he asked for a two-year extension this offseason.
I liked what Bell brought, but his defense had slipped to the point where it was almost as bad as anyone's, his shot had become very eratic, and if he was becoming a distraction in the locker room, then honoring his request was the best thing for the Suns, no matter the surprise it brought upon Nash.
Besides, if Bell requested it, then obviously he didn't think very highly of sticking around with Nash.
Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!
I follow the Suns and I never heard anybody compare Skinner to Russell - or even a player like Chandler or Dalembert, for that matter - or Barnes to Marion defensively. D'Antoni gushed over Banks, 'tis true, but because of his size and athleticism, not because of his shot.
As for Robin, I'll explain why he belongs in the NBA...
What the are you talking about? Because he's white? How about because when his brother was suspended for the first half of last season, Robin averaged 13 points, 7 rebounds and 3 blocks in around 25 minutes a night.The Lopez thing I find hilarious, particularly because Kerr got so many people to buy into it. Because Lopez is white, everyone assumed his game was extremely polished for a rookie and he was a very intelligent player. Kerr's plan worked to perfection, draft a big white guy, make sure the sports writers you have wrapped around your fingers write a few articles about his "NBA ready rebounding and defense," and the fans will find it brilliant.
Nobody thought he was polished. Of the two brothers, Robin was always the lesser offensively skilled. However, he was also the one who hustled and attempted to play defense. He's energetic, is very quick and athletic for a big man and works hard.
If a team has a shot to draft a legit 7-footer who's athletic, quick and hustles, then why shouldn't they given what will follow?
There's obviously no talking to you. Played in the smallest conference in the NCAA? in case you hadn't noticed - which you obviously haven't - he and his brother went up against 2007 lottery pick 6-11, 215 Spencer Hawes and 6-8, 240 Jon Brockman at Washington, against 2008 lottery pick 6-9, 245 Kevin Love and 6-9, 220 Mbah A Moute at UCLA, 6-9, against 230 Ryan Anderson and 6-11, 225 DeVon Hardin at California, 6-10, against 240 Taj Gibson at USC, 6-9, against 235 Jordan Hill at UA, 6-10, against 235 Eric Boetang and 6-9, 230 Jeff Pendergraph at ASU.Lopez is 7 feet tall and played in the smallest conference in the NCAA, the Pac-10. He averaged a grand 5 rebounds per game in college. I'm curious Jmarks, why should he start?
The Pac-10 for the better part of two years may have been the tallest and most talented with regards to frontcourt players in the NCAA. In the last two drafts, it has produced three lottery picks from three different schools, two more first-round selections, two more second-round selections and by this next draft, will likely produce another two first-rounders in Gibson and Hill and another second that Robin played against in Pendergraph.
That means in this two years at Stanford, Robin will have faced off against his brother, 2008 top-10 pick, everyday in practice, against two other lottery picks, four other 1st-rounders and another three to four second-rounders.
Considering his compe ion night-in, night-out, and his shared spotlight with his brother, I think stats of 11 points, 6 rebounds and 2 blocks is pretty solid for a sop re.
As to why he should start, if it's not obvious that his athleticism and hustle upfront complements Nash's transition game and Amare's defensive weaknesses, then you don't know much about basketball.
Let's see, a slow, plodding Shaq that bogs down the middle, can't hit a shot outside the key and is slow to react on defense in an up-tempo style of offensive ball or a quick and defensive 7-foot athlete who not only can block shots and rebound well enough, but can hit a 10-foot jumper.
Whether or not you think it's in the Suns best interests to start Lopez over Shaq is an argument I'd consider and may actually be right, but to dismiss Lopez because of a flawed idea of who he is, the conference he played in and the team that drafted him is just silly.
EDIT: In the three games he's received big minutes this season, Lopez is averaging 11 points, 5 rebounds and 2 blocks a game. That's in an average of 27 minutes a game.
That's pretty damn solid for a rookie.
He's been inconsistent, true, but his minutes have been inconsistent. Going forward he needs a bigger role and he needs it alongside Amare and Nash to maximize his defense and athleticism in transition.
Last edited by JMarkJohns; 12-13-2008 at 02:15 PM.
Spencer Hawes: 15 ppg, 6 rpg
Jon Brockman: 14 ppg, 10 rpg
Kevin Love: 18 ppg, 10 rpg
Luc Richard Mbah A Moute: 9 ppg, 8 rpg
Ryan Anderson: 18 ppg, 9 rpg
DeVon Hardin: 10 ppg, 8 rpg
Taj Gibson: 13 ppg, 9 rpg
Jordan Hill: 14 ppg, 8 rpg
Jeff Pendergraph: 12 ppg, 8 rpg
These are the averages from opposing frontcourts the Lopez twins went up against for the one or two seasons they were at Stanford.
I don't feel bad for nash. Not one bit. He's playing basketball in Phoenix, Arizona in front of rabid fans who adore him and is earning millions of dollars. Aww, he wost his best fwend; poor wittle ting. What a whiney little .
The Suns were 1-2 in those three 3 games, so starting him obviously didn't help the Suns as a team, the win coming against the OKC Thunder. In that game, the Suns were outscored by 8 in the 25 minutes he played. In those three games, the other team averaged 12 offensive boards, which doesn't surprise me considering most teams would when the opposing center only averages 2.8 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes.
You say rebound "well enough", what exactly is "well enough"? Per 36 minutes, so PT isn't a factor here, Nash averages more defensive rebounds than Robin, is that well enough? Do championship teams normally start a center who averages 2.8 rebounds per 36 minutes?
Btw, all those players you mentioned are shorter than Robin and are considered undersized centers. Jay Bilas said multiple times last year the Pac-10 was the smallest conference, and that's specifically because they had 6'8" 6'9" guys playing center.
Compliments Amare's defensive weaknesses? WTF are you talking about? Amare's defensive weaknesses are defensive rebounding, always being out of position, and not being big enough to keep strong players out of the paint, so how exactly does Robin compliment his weaknesses? Ask Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard how easy it is to get in the paint against him, he averages 5 fouls per 36 minutes so obviously he's out of position rather often, and I already explained his pitiful defensive rebounding.
Saying Lopez compliments Amare defensively would be like saying Mehmet Okur compliments Dirk defensively. They both have horrid lower body strength and need someone like Shaq to guard the Duncans, Howards and Al Jeffersons of the league.
I didn't mean the Skinner Russell thing literally, my point is that Steve Kerr's little puppet crew tooted Kerr's horn repeatedly for picking up a "hard nosed defender" in Skinner, and a Suns writer, Paul Coro, specifically called Barnes defense "Marion-like". That's an exact quote. They also described Robin Lopez as NBA ready and a great rebounder, which even though you think someone who averages 2.8 defensive rebounds per 36 is a great rebounder, he is not.
Last edited by DUNCANownsKOBE2; 12-13-2008 at 04:23 PM.
What a wonderful article....it made me smile. I am so glad our Spurs had a major part in the demise and dismantling of that team. I do not feel sorry for them or their fans. I do not feel sorry for any of the players.....Win or go home. Win or get fired. Win or get traded. Then failed to win and now they have to endure the business side of things. It is the nature of the beast. Meanwhile, my Spurs are still a happy little family, surrounded by happy little OBrien's......even though we did lose Barry, but he is right down the road.
GO SPURS GO
"He's been inconsistent, true, but his minutes have been inconsistent. Going forward he needs a bigger role and he needs it alongside Amare and Nash to maximize his defense and athleticism in transition."
Have you watched a Suns game when Lopez was starting next to Amare? Remember that New Orleans game beginning of the month? That game where Chandler and West combined to go 11 for 18 from the field with 10 combined offensive rebounds and 17 combine free throw attempts. Is that your definition of two players that compliment each other on defense? They are both the exact same defender, Robin needed Brook to be a good defender, and Amare needs Shaq to be a good defender. Neither one of them has fundamental defense or rebounding skills, they both get rebounds because of height and burst. Height and athleticism are only two of many elements a dominant rebounder has. Marion is 6'7" and he rebounds way better than either one.
He's a rookie who's had limited NBA experience. I'll take him going forward just fine. He's green, but he has shown potential, works hard and is athletic. I am pretty confident footwork, positioning and strength will come and each will benefit Lopez in every current area of weakness.
You're really going overboard. Nobody is claiming championship. Also HE'S A ROOKIE... Also, if you watch him play, sometimes I attempts to tip the ball to an open teammate rather than grab the rebound, which doesn't count as a rebound for him, but for the person who comes away with the rebound.You say rebound "well enough", what exactly is "well enough"? Per 36 minutes, so PT isn't a factor here, Nash averages more defensive rebounds than Robin, is that well enough? Do championship teams normally start a center who averages 2.8 rebounds per 36 minutes?
Going forward, Lopez is a player who needs more minutes and what he brings is maximized alongside Nash, in an uptempo style, and alongside Amare.
Very few college teams start 6-11 or taller players. Seldom does a conference have more than two or three in starting roles at a time.Btw, all those players you mentioned are shorter than Robin and are considered undersized centers. Jay Bilas said multiple times last year the Pac-10 was the smallest conference, and that's specifically because they had 6'8" 6'9" guys playing center.
I'll take the Pac-10 big men in college vs. any conference.
His weakside blocked shots help combat Amare's poor positioning and reaction time. He's also a true 7-footer with quickness and long arms that can alter shots. Yeah, he's thin. Sure, he needs to add some weight. Yes, he needs coaching up. But he's a 20 year old rookie. The Suns aren't going to play Howard but one more time, and they'll have Shaq going forward to play bigger minutes when necessary.Compliments Amare's defensive weaknesses? WTF are you talking about? Amare's defensive weaknesses are defensive rebounding, always being out of position, and not being big enough to keep strong players out of the paint, so how exactly does Robin compliment his weaknesses? Ask Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard how easy it is to get in the paint against him, he averages 5 fouls per 36 minutes so obviously he's out of position rather often, and I already explained his pitiful defensive rebounding.
But he's not going to remain an inconsistent rookie forever. Not with his hustle, his hard work and his ability. He needs roughly 20 minutes a night consistently from now on. Whether that's off the bench, failing to utilize his athleticism alongside his most athletic teammates, or starting with them, whatever. But he's made a positive impact.
Twenty Year Old Rookie... Give him minutes, give him time and I bet he improves. I'm not expecting All-Star, but he's tall, quick and athletic enough to average 6-7 points, 5-6 rebounds and 2 blocks in 20 minutes a night if used right. I'll take that.Saying Lopez compliments Amare defensively would be like saying Mehmet Okur compliments Dirk defensively. They both have horrid lower body strength and need someone like Shaq to guard the Duncans, Howards and Al Jeffersons of the league.
Skinner was a solid pick up and had D'Antoni played him more, he'd have contributed more. D'Antoni doesn't know how to use offensively challenged players.I didn't mean the Skinner Russell thing literally, my point is that Steve Kerr's little puppet crew tooted Kerr's horn repeatedly for picking up a "hard nosed defender" in Skinner, and a Suns writer, Paul Coro, specifically called Barnes defense "Marion-like". That's an exact quote. They also described Robin Lopez as NBA ready and a great rebounder, which even though you think someone who averages 2.8 defensive rebounds per 36 is a great rebounder, he is not.
Coro is a tool. Everyone who writes for the Arizona Republic is a tool. If Coro in-fact said such, then you're justified in your claims of media bias, but nto for wactually caring to reporters who most Suns fans ignore :p
Barnes is tough. I like what he brings. He's agressive, rebounds well for his size, doesn't take crap and his the ability to create his own offense and hit the open three. He's benefitte the Suns more than Marion did last season by playing hard and not ing about being underpaid/underappreciated based on what he produces.
As for your closing remarks on Lopez... You really shouldn't complain when pro-Suns media is prone to hyperbole when your anti-Suns self is exaggerating my words.
Never did I even infer Lopez was a great rebounder. I never even said he was a good rebounder. I said he was a good enough rebounder that he could justify starting based on what else he brings to an athletic starting lineup.
Against most every NBA team, I expect Lopez to work out just fine in his 20 minutes or so a night. Sure, he'll struggle, and yes, he may be incapable of defending the Howard's and Ming's of the league for long stretches, but he's a solid prospect who hustles, works hard and has good defensive timing to alter/block shots, especially on help defense.
With Amare as the PF, help defense and quicker reaction times is a nice complement. Shaq doesn't really bring either.
You really have a hard on for bashing Lopez. He's a freakin' rookie... a young one at that who barely plays. Of course when you thrust him in against All-Star/Olympic frontcourts he'll struggle. To expect otherwise is foolish. However, he isn't going to learn and improve sitting on the bench while Shaq bogs down the Suns in a mismatched lineup.
Robin, not Brook, was the better defender.
I'm not saying there aren't times when it will be a benefit to the Suns to start or play Amare and Shaq more than Amare and Lopez, but while he has his issues, Robin isn't the lost cause you portray him to be.
Every player needs time with his teammates, to develop chemistry, gain know-how of their tendencies and develop proper reactions to them.
You're basing your opinions on a flawed notion of him in college and in his limited and very inconsistent playing time thus far.
Give the kid a break and let him develop.
Judging by statistics, the lineup of Lopez-Amare-Hill-Richardson-Nash would grab the defensive rebound 65.6% of the time. That team would get abused on the offensive glass. Being able to guard Tim Duncan and keep him off the glass is 10x more important than being able to block shots. Blocks are the most overrated defensive statistic of all time, a team blocking more shots than another team DOES NOT mean they are a better defensive team. If blocking shots and playing help defense was important, the Spurs would have one of the worst defenses in basketball.
The Suns are 2-3 in the games he starts, and one of the two came against the OKC Thunder where they surrendered 15 offensive rebounds and won by only 1 point, the other win was last night when a Howard injury saved them. Sounds like a recipe for success.
When your perimeter defense is nonexistent, then having a shotblocker is very important. Having an athlete step in and alter shots can trickle down and actually cause opponants to hesitate driving the lane. I'm not saying Lopez is that type of shot blocker, but when given the minutes, he's proven a very solid one.
You're right that Shaq benefits the Suns vs. specific teams, but vs. others I think Lopez helps in ways Shaq can't. I was screaming at the TV for Porter to play Lopez in the fourth last night. It was a layup line almost all quarter. At least try it.
And I knew he would struggle against Howard, but struggling and not grabbing 1 defensive rebound in 20 minutes at center are two completely different things. The Robin Lopez Kerr told us he was drafting is not a player who needs a lot of experience to start playing better defense, but then again his role on defense at Stanford was completely different than his defensive role on the Suns, another brilliant player evaluation by Kerr.
The Suns built a bigger lead when Howard was in then what they won by. Howard's departure hurt the Suns. They may not have won had he stayed in, but they had figured out how to do their best against him and had outscored the Magic by nearly 20 points from the second quarter on when Howard left. From that point on, the Suns were outscored.
You can't not play a player, insert him at random and expect him to just get it and play at a high level. He needs minutes. He needs consistency. He needs to play with a specific rotation to learn their ins and outs.
I don't understand why you hold a rookie to such a high standard. It's almost pathetic how much you seemingly despise the kid.
Play him consistently with the same players and let a chemistry develop. He's not a lost cause. He'll improve.
And because Lopez was able to body-up Howard, Amare grabbed 14 rebounds, way more than his average. Seriously, there's impact that can't be seen through stats alone.
Having bad perimeter defense is not a problem you can hide. You need to be able to limit dribble penetration with your PG, SG and SF. If shot blocking is your most effective way of getting a stop, then you're not a contender. Teams like Boston and SA worry about opposing field percentage and defensive rebounding. Those are the only two things a good defense should focus on.
Shaq is the Suns best defensive rebounder, i don't know why you think defensive rebounding is so unimportant, but by saying Lopez should start over Shaq you're saying lets give the opposing team 10+ offensive rebounds, a career night from either their PF/C, and in exchange Lopez might be able to block a few shots that Shaq would not have been able to.
OK, Shaq would be able to body Howard up a lot more effectively than Lopez, and Lopez only saw a healthy Howard for half the game. If Howard is able to finish the game, Suns lose easily. He also didn't really "body up" Howard, Howard was on pace for a gigantic night before his injury. 7 rebounds at half time.
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