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Doesn't Dampier have a higher shooting percentage than Duncan? No one's going to tout him over Duncan.
Your attempt to simply compare stats across the board is so terribly flawed.
No - The team is now weaker in crucial areas
Yes - Kidd is what is needed to get them that championship
Well actually with the mavs his shooting percentage is higher than rafer alstons.
.416 to .399 fg%,
and 3ptr's .469 to .353
Doesn't Dampier have a higher shooting percentage than Duncan? No one's going to tout him over Duncan.
Your attempt to simply compare stats across the board is so terribly flawed.
The starting PG for Team USA and the guy that most of the great players in the NBA would love to have running the floor with them? Is that close enough?
In the short term Kidd might be better for the Mavs. There's a chance that's true because Kidd is certainly a better player at this point. I don't think there's a single stat to support that the Mavs are better with Kidd, but there's time for the Mavs to turn it around. That said, there are Mavs fans on here referring to Harris as a "spare". That's just stupid, and you know it.
Of course it is. You also have to admit that some of the hyperbole about how vital and great he and Diop are is a little silly as well.
In general? Possibly. But when it comes to matching up with the Spurs, it's not so far fetched. Lots of Mavs fans were here in 2006 telling me how much Harris was going to improve the Mavericks when he came back healthy (I made fun of them at the time), and sure enough, The Mavs went on one of the better runs in NBA history when he did. Maybe those fans were just spouting groupthink homer rhetoric, but they were the ones who got us to pay attention to him, and there are quite a few stats to suggest that those folks were right then and wrong now, mainly winning percentage. His ability to keep Parker in front of him is something Jason Kidd's never been able to do, like it or not. The return of the Mavs to an offense first mentality is the best thing that could happen to the western conference teams that are gearing up for playoff runs.
It's been said that the Mavs were built to beat the Spurs, and they've certainly held their own the last two years. Since their playoff series was REALLY close, the importance of the Mavs' having lost the two guys who bothered Parker and Duncan the most is noteworthy. Downplaying their contribution to the team in general doesn't change what they did against San Antonio.
Until the Mavs face the Spurs in a seven game series, it's going to be really hard to compare. I actively hoped and rooted for this trade to go through, and haven't seen anything yet to change my mind.
Ahh an oldie article about the Kidd trade but a goodie.
Jason Kidd Trade Is a Bad One for Dallas
Brett EdwardsPosted Feb 13th 2008 7:02PM by Brett Edwards
Filed under: Nets, Mavericks, NBA Rumors, Featured Stories
After Mark Cuban just the other day said he wouldn't trade away half his team for Jason Kidd, it appears that he's done (or is on the verge of doing) exactly that. With the Lakers and Suns making huge additions -- both literally and figuratively -- to their rosters, it seems like Dallas just wasn't willing to wait and see if their roster, once healthy, could compete with these clubs for a le. Sure the Mavericks have their share of issues, but as I see it, the addition of Kidd doesn't help to solve any of them.
The Mavericks' problems this year have been a lack of depth and too many injuries, which together can make for a deadly combination. Just look at the Mavs' last game against the Sixers, where they managed to score only 23 points in the entire second half. That's what happens when Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris, and Erick Dampier all sit with injuries, and you're left with the likes of Devean George and DeSagana Diop in your starting lineup. But despite all that, Dallas still has a 34-17 record, currently good for third in the West. When considering the fact that both Harris and Stack -- two main rotation guys -- were both expected back in the next couple of weeks, it seems that the injury portion of Dallas' problems would have worked itself out rather quickly.
Let's discuss the Mavericks' depth, or at this point, their lack of it. By giving up George, Diop, and Stack, and Harris, it's basically a four-for-one swap. Because all four of those guys (when healthy) get some minutes for Dallas, and they're only getting back one guy who is likely to see the court. The Mavs are also now extremely thin at the five spot, with only Dampier being a legitimate fit for that position. Not that Diop is all that great, but at least he's a seven-footer (with six fouls to give) who can bother the likes of Shaq, Duncan, Bynum, and Gasol. Who's going to guard those guys once Dampier gets into foul trouble? Six-foot-eight Brandon Bass? Dirk? Newly-acquired Malik Allen? It's a tough question, and one that Avery Johnson is going to need to find an answer for almost immediately.
The crux of the trade though comes down to this: right now, do you think Jason Kidd is better than Devin Harris? Obviously the Mavs think that Kidd's passing, rebounding, and veteran leadership are the missing pieces to their championship puzzle, but just about all the numbers say otherwise. John Hollinger has a variety of statistical points showing how Harris is more productive than Kidd, on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that Harris is 10 years younger than Kidd. This is obviously a move to win right-effing-now by Dallas, with absolutely no regard for the team's future.
There's one little loophole that in my mind could save this trade from being a complete disaster for Dallas, and that's the possibility of getting Jerry Stackhouse back on their roster. How could this happen? The Nets are rumored to be interested in buying out Stack's contract before he ever plays for them, which would make him an unrestricted free agent. After a 30-day waiting period, Stack could return to Dallas. Getting to keep a veteran scorer like Stack around would make this a lot less painful for the Mavs, especially come playoff time. And then of course the depth issue wouldn't be so dire, either.
Overall though, I just can't see this deal as making things any better for the Mavs. Based on the decision to trade Devin Harris -- a point guard who has better numbers than Kidd and who's 10 years younger -- along with some much-needed depth for basically the hope that Kidd's intangibles will put them over the top come playoff time, I'm just not seeing this as a positive move for Dallas. And if they don't get that championship with Kidd over the next couple of seasons, they're seriously going to wish they hadn't given up on a rising star like Harris, who could have been the leader of their team for several years to come. I think that once the season has been played out, it will show that this was a total panic deal by Dallas. One that was brought on by the recent moves of the Lakers and Suns, and one that the Mavericks will surely live to regret.
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/...ne-for-dallas/
and of course.. the opinions of the Nets fans. Yes I believe.
In the demise of a once great franchise.
http://www.sportsline.com/mcc/messag...8880#ID6588880
February 21, 2008 12:14 am
Score: 99
I have wanted Kidd off this team for almost a full year now and I am so glad he is finally gone. The team looks so much looser and happier without him here, not to mention the effort they played with that we have not seen all year long. I am so glad I don't have to ever see that whiney, headache faking, wife beating, woman groping, selfish, quitter in a Nets uniform ever again.
I wanted to get Bynum for Kidd last season, but after the emergence of Josh Boone and the drafting of Sean Williams, this may be the better deal for us. I can't believe we got so much.
It was clear from the start of this year that Jason Kidd had lost a step. He could no longer defend like he once could, his shot has regressed even more and he is shooting a terrible percentage, and he is now more turnover prone than I have ever seen him in his career. Yeah he got triple doubles this year, but we lost most of those games anyway. He played without passion and seemed not to care and I doubt he did. I was convinced two months ago that the Nets would be a better team with Marcus Williams in the game than Kidd because Williams brings another dimension to the floor since he is a threat to scrore at any time. Our set offense was awful with Kidd because he could only scrore on the fast break or from a wide open shot, so that made the rest of our players easier to defend.
With Kidd being clearly on the downside of his career and pretty close to washed up as well as demanding to be traded, I can't believe we got so much. We got a PG who is only 24 years old and is already considered to be a top 10 PG in the league and is known as the second fasted man in the NBA after Barbosa. He is also a great defender. Getting Diop is also huge because he is like a coordinated version of Jason Collins, which is much better than the actual Jason Collins because he can move his feet, catch the ball and sometimes get it in the hoop.
I am also glad that George and Stackhouse ruined the original deal because I really like what Trenton Hassel brings to the team. He is one of the top defenders in the league, he can consistently knock down the mid range shot, and he hustles like there is no tomorrow. Maurice Ager has a chance to develope into something as well since he was great at Michigan St.
After getting all of this I can't believe we also got two 1st round draft picks!!!! This is amazing.
To sum up, this deal is great for the Nets and I like where we are heading. The Mavericks are morons. We weren't going to win anything with Kidd and neither are they so for them to mortgage their future for a 35 year old PG who skills have already diminished is unbelievably dumb, but thanks Mavs. We have a ton of young talent and a bright, bright future. With one trade we have essentialy just gone through the entire rebuilding process without even having to go through the seasons of poor play and missing the playoffs that most teams have to suffer through. Good riddance Jason Kidd. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. I can't wait to see Harris out there.
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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King o fNY
Reputation:93
Level:All-Star
Since:Jan 30, 2008
February 21, 2008 1:15 am
Score: 42
Great post AvesNailsElisha.
I don’t want to go much in the wife beating stuff because they were allegations. I am also glad to see Kidd go. Dallas may have forgotten, but Kidd was a growing cancer. Having Kidd on the team, it seem as if we were bless by God himself for allow him to play for our team. Kidd has openly spoke about how much he wanted to play for other teams.
He’s not as bad as Alonzo Morning, but Jason is no good. Kidd turned his back on the organization that helped to resurrect his image after it was tarnished in Dallas and Phoenix. The fake headaches and attempt to force the Nets hand and lower his trade value is low class. This is why I didn’t understand why people wanted Kidd’s number retired after he retire. He never seemed appreciative of playing for the Nets. Don’t get me wrong, Kidd is a great player. But his best days are well behind him.
We are better off without Jason Kidd. I thought that Jason Kidd was the only player with a child the way the Nets organization and the television personnel placated towards his son. Jason Kidd is a diva. He can't play for Quinn Buckner so the Mavs fire the coach. He couldn't play for Bryan Scott and Scott got fired. He didn't like the Phoenix organization saying that he wasn't a got scorer, so he use a game when the Nets vs the Suns to display how you need not score to effective. He doesn't get his way so he get a headache.
I don’t hate Kidd or Love him. I don’t care anymore. We are moving on. Kidd has gone under the knife and had surgery on his knees. His shelf life is coming to its end. Thorn did a great job.
We got a solid young point guard and draft picks. We have cap space and some serviceable parts. Our future looker Brighter without Kidd in the picture. Now lets see how Lawence Frank is as coach. He placated to Kidd. He knew why the last coach got fired. I think Frank is better than what he get credit for. Without Kidd being so demanding, we can now see if he is really as good as I think he is.
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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Tray69
Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Sep 15, 2006
February 21, 2008 12:28 pm
Score: 99
I couldn't agree more with you guys. The Nets actually played with life last night. Perfect example is when Richard Jefferson flew out of nowhere to block a 3 point attempt by Ben Gordon late in the game, when probably last week he would have just stared at him as he drains the open 3. Jason Kidd was a cancer to this team. Even Marc Jackson kept ripping on him all night, making fun of how he couldn't score and how he had a triple single last night. Everybody in this orgainization is so happy he is gone and we got great players and we haven't even got to see Devin Harris in a Net uniform yet. And I can only imagine who those 1st round picks are going to be, especially if this J Kidd trade causes the Mavs to stink and we turn out getting a lottery pick in the 2010 draft. Great trade, I love it and I actually enjoy watching the Nets again. Now all they have to do is fire Lawerence Frank and this team will be complete.
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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Good Riddance Jason Kidd
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PNC123
Reputation:93
Level:All-Star
Since:Sep 19, 2007
February 21, 2008 4:02 pm
Score: 91
I am in total agreement with you guys too. We have something to look forward to now and some picks for the future to trade up with. I think Rod Thorn deserves a lot of creadit for holding out for a GREAT deal.
Lol at the original poster getting excited about Ager and Hassell. Lmao. Yeah I think the trade is bad but the only pieces that matter are Harris and Diop and the draft picks could help.
The sounds of crickets chirping...
Mavs go hard!!
Yes, Nets fans are the final authority on the Kidd trade.
Didn't even read the articles you posted.
I wonder if the Nets fan above feels the same way after the Nets went 9-17 after the Chicago game (when he wrote it) and dropped out of playoff contention. I guess they were happy not to have Kidd around bugging them to try to win every night.I have wanted Kidd off this team for almost a full year now and I am so glad he is finally gone. The team looks so much looser and happier without him here, not to mention the effort they played with that we have not seen all year long. I am so glad I don't have to ever see that whiney, headache faking, wife beating, woman groping, selfish, quitter in a Nets uniform ever again.
If the Nets needed a point guard to get points, rebounds and assists every night just to give them a chance (which looks more true by the day), then they're going to need to get some more pieces before Harris is going to help them win.
While Nets fans have reason to be happy about the trade, some of the comments skimming over are ridiculous. Kidd turned that franchise around, I guess him being a "cancer" and a "diva" with his previous teams over his career didn't matter all that much when he took them to the finals twice.
It seems like Kidd has kind of politicked for a trade the past two years. I can understand how a fanbase would be bitter about that. The Mavs turned on Devin Harris for less than that.
Wow - this poll is almost 50/50...and this after getting off to a very dubious start.
DD
Ehem....how is that trade looking now?
DD
oh what a shocker you're talking about the Mavericks again. damn you're obsessed.
LOL dude, just jerking your chain.....
I could not believe that you guys lost to Seattle, but your position is pretty much set in the playoffs, so not really all that surprising.
Meanwhile, my team, who had EVERYTHING to play for, basically tanked against the Nuggets.....very dissappointing.
It looks like Houston & San Antonio are manuevering to get a favorable matchup.
Houston is trying to get Utah, and San Antonio is trying to get Houston.
Should be interesting.
DD
Much has been talked about the mavs' defensive issues without devin/diop in lieu of kidd/allen. I think KG has highlighted numbers to show that this isn't really true. This post at mavs moneyball is very illuminating and heartening. Even with ko'ach pulling the strings.
http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/story/2008/4/13/212245/788
Heading Into The Post-Season: Defense
By Jake
Posted on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:22:45 PM EDT
With a playoff spot guaranteed, and the season over in a number of days, now is the time to start assessing the Mavs as a playoff team. This is the first in a series of articles heading into round one, where I'll look at the Mavs various strengths and weaknesses. I'll start with a broad view and then focus on individual players and elements of the team. Today I look at overall defense.
While some online press have recently outlined that the Mavs have abandoned defense as a core value, my perception has been quite a bit different. Certainly, I felt the Mavs began the year with lackluster defensive effort (and I wrote about that in my review of the first half of the season). My conclusion then was simple: The Mavs just weren't making an effort on the defensive end. But as the season has gone along, I've seen the defensive intensity ratcheted up, especialy since Jason Kidd has joined the team.
As how a team is performing directly heading into the playoffs is of critical importance (witness Golden State last year), I decided to see how the Mavericks overall defensive efficiency (points given up per 100 possessions) has trended from game one to last night. If the team started with a mediocre defense but has ended the season with some dominant performances, then that is excellent news come playoff time.
To get a picture of how the team has trended while also removing the game-to-game fluctuations ("noise"), I averaged the season defense in ten game increments. The only exception was that I wanted to get a view of Kidd's impact, so I used his arrival as a cutoff point. Here are the results. Note that lower is better, because it means you're giving up fewer points:
One of the first things I noticed was the large e of very poor defense heading into around game 20. If you remember back a few posts, I noted that it appeared that coach Avery Johnson pulled back the tempo of the Mavs offense, taking the keys away from Devin Harris. It's not unreasonable, looking at this data, to conclude that Johnson saw serious erosion on the defensive side due to Harris' lack of control of the offense, and thus pulled things back significantly. In terms of defense, it clearly worked. The Mavs defense improved significantly as the Mavs offense dramatically slowed its pace.
After around game 40, the Mavs defense started to degrade again. And then an amazing thing happened--the Mavs traded their "all defense" point guard (at least according to John Hollinger) Devin Harris for an aging point guard whose best defensive days were presumably behind him, Jason Kidd. The impact can clearly be seen in the graph. Shortly after Kidd arrived, the Mavs defense got all medieval. In fact, over the past 12 games, the Mavs defensive efficiency is 102.9, which would put the team at fourth in the league, closely behind San Antonio.
As far as looking to the playoffs, you couldn't ask for a better view of the Mavs defense than what we see here. We trade for a new point guard, and he has practically an immediate impact on the defense, and the trend since his arrival is from good range to the dominant range. In fact, the Mavs performance has actually been even better than these stats show, as one of the nuances here is that in this trend toward defensive dominance, the Mavs played some of the best offensive teams in the league, including the top FIVE offenses in the league--Utah, Phoenix, LA Lakers, Golden State, and New Orleans. Quite simply, the Mavs are heading into the playoffs playing playoff defense.
Why the Rasho avatar?
Huh,
I wonder how people would vote today....NEVER doubt the DD and his basketball wisdom...you will consistently get PWNED !!
DD
Good for you, want a ing cookie? Go yourself.
Hindsight is always 20/20, .
Isn't it obvious by now that the Mavs panicked and made a reactionary trade?
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