Is there a God?

[Crookshanks]

There is nothing as hate-filled said to you as the garbage you spew, damning everyone who doesn't believe as you do. Just because you're repeating something you read doesn't make it any less bigoted when you're coming on here and arguing it based on your belief. It's so insanely arrogant to act like you have it all right and anyone who believes differently is going to get his comeuppance from your supposed insecure and angry gods.

Hoo-boy! A little testy there baseline? Nothing I've posted in this thread could be construed as hate-filled. I've simple stated my beliefs - which I BELIEVE was the purpose of this thread - and said that everyone had the free will to chose to believe or not believe. Not once have I said so-and-so is going to - maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

But you notice the words you use - saying I'm spewing garbage and damning everyone who doesn't believe as I do - those are YOUR words, not mine. You believe it's garbage - okay - you're free to do so. But there are many of us here who believe otherwise - and that's okay too!

[Summers]

You call telling us the earth is 400 Billion years old your 2 cents?



According to what facts? Please don't pull out the out dated text books the kids have to read in order to graduate. please tell me your not relying on what you was taught in school.




Are you sure it wasn't 4 and 1/2 or 5 billion years? lets go for 6 Billion to be safe! I hate to bust your little Darwin bubble but the an average lifespan of a comet is approximately 2,000 years. Halley's Comet is approximately 10,000 years, so if the earth was even One Million years old there would be no more comets left.

But If you still believe that 40o billion bull then I have a 1985 Delorean to sell you it helps you travel through time. You might have to replace the flux capacitor.

Also each year, water and winds erode about 28 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the oceans. At that rate, it would take only 15 million years to erode all land above sea-level. Yet most of the land is supposed to have been above sea-level for hundreds of millions of years?

another point:

Over the years, Some scientists have reported various pieces of evidence in the Earth that contradict the fossil record. Seemingly manmade objects have been reported in rocks which, according to geologists, would not have been available to man. To some people, this evidence debunks the entire accepted scientific dating system. The most famous piece of such evidence is the supposed human tracks in the limestone bed of the Paluxy River in Texas. The Paluxy River is known for its large number of dinosaur footprints, but some people believe that tracks from human beings are intermingled with the dinosaur footprints, which would mean that humans and dinosaurs were on the planet at the same time.




Another heads up: dirt samples from the top of the grand canyon and the bottom of the grand canyon was sent off to a lab to determine the age of the dirt, The test reviled the dirt was no older than 6000 years old.

How can the dirt be the same age on the bottom and the top if the grand canyon took millions (according to you billions) of years to make?

also.........We know absolutely for certain, it takes millions and millions of years for fossils to petrify." It’s so obvious that no proof is necessary and of course no witnesses verify. The claim is just repeated over and over. So we hear, "Everybody knows that." Oh yea? How old do you think this boot could be? Millions and millions of years old? I suppose it could be made from T. Rex skin. Do you really think so?
The rubber-soled boot with petrified cowboy (human) leg, bones and all was found in a dry creek bed near the West Texas town of Iraan, about 1980 by Mr. Jerry Stone, an employee of Corvette oil company.



The boot was hand made by the M. L. Leddy boot company of San Angelo, Texas which began manufacturing boots in 1936. Gayland Leddy, nephew of the founder, grew up in the boot business and now manages Boot Town in Garland, Texas. He recognized the "number 10 s ch pattern" used by his uncle’s company where he worked for many years. Mr. Leddy believes the boot was made in the early 1950’s.







You may want to do some more research before you quote some out dated text book.





So was Picasso,Einstein, and Galileo, even Bill Gates and Gandhi did jail time. Does it matter if Ben Franklyn was a closet lesbian? Or Alexander Graham Bell liked to talk to lady bugs? Don't try and ruin someones personal life to avoid the facts they have proven to be correct.

It helps your cause if you keep the debate punches above the waist.

The book I used as a reference for dates is not outdated. It was copyrighted and published in 2008. It's Biological Sciences, third edition by Scott Freeman.

Let me make it very clear, because I am not a judgmental person, that I didn't call Kent Hovind a crackpot because he's in jail or because he goes around the country preaching what he believes. It's because he lies to make people believe what he believes (he's lied about his education; he uses false information in his lectures; there is absolutely nothing scientific about his "scientific" presentations, etc) AND because he hands out brochures at his lectures warning the audience that anyone who disagrees with him is doing so because they hate Christians, which is certainly not the case. He has not been proven correct, as you claim. If you want to claim he has proven his case, then you must admit there is at least as much scientific evidence that he is wrong; it would be the intellectually honest thing to do. In that case, we must agree to disagree.

Regarding land erosion, the point I was trying to make was Hawaii, for example. The earth's geography has changed due to tectonic plate movement and soil erosion certainly doesn't take place uniformly across any large piece of land. Roots anchor down soil and as long as there are dead leaves and bugs to eat them, there will be more soil.

The contents of that boot are, by definition, not a fossil. That's human bone, still made of calcium and probably enough DNA to ID the body surrounded by a cast of dried mud, which, if carbon-dated, would reveal it to be a very young deposit of silt.

I realize this thread has gotten heated, but I am being civil, Mouse, and I didn't punch anyone "below the waist". I'd appreciate a civil debate in return.

[Summers]

Even though I never 100% support much due to the fact that I must leave the door open for anyone who can present something that proves me wrong,I must keep an open mind.

I don't 100% agree with everything Kent Hovind says but he does bring up some good evidence and it would be good if you would listen to a few of his speeches.

In this debate he goes head to head with three others.

I will listen to this. It'll take me a while. Thank you for the link.

[mouse]

The book I used as a reference for dates is not outdated. It was copyrighted and published in 2008. It's Biological Sciences, third edition by Scott Freeman.
.

So let me get this straight! Your able to quote a book written in 2007-2008 but I and others can't quote the Bible? How is that fair?

I don't care about the cowboy boot. You can Google it yourself It's not just Kent Hovind who feels it's a fossil, in fact i went to another site to get the info.

but since your in a debunking mood, let me toss a few others at you.

How long does it take to form sedimentary layers? Charles Officer is a research professor at Dartmouth. In his 1996 book, The Great Dinosaur Extinction Mystery, he says, "...a rate of one centimeter per 1000 years is typical," But just look and think about this 30 foot fossil tree. It is one of hundreds found near Cookville, TN in the Kettles coal mines which derived their name from the shape of the lower portion of these fossil trees. This tree begins in one coal seam, protrudes upward through numerous layers and finally into another layer of coal.

Think about that. What would happen to the top of the tree in the thousands of years necessary to cover it at the rate postulated by Officer. Derek Ager, one of the world’s best known statigraphers, addresses this challenge, acknowledging "...standing trees up to 10 m high in the Lancashire coalfield of north-west England. ...Obviously sedimentation had to be very rapid to bury a tree in a standing position before it rotted and fell down. ...Standing trees are known at many levels and in many parts of the world. ...we cannot escape the conclusion that sedimentation was at times very rapid indeed and that at other times there were long breaks in the sedimentation, though it looks uniform and continuous,

In spite of how it looks, long periods of time are still claimed, "shoehorned" between the layers, where there is no evidence. Now, which is really better science...imaginative explanations about why things are not as they appear to be, or a determination to follow the implications of what we actually see?

[baseline bum]

Hoo-boy! A little testy there baseline? Nothing I've posted in this thread could be construed as hate-filled. I've simple stated my beliefs - which I BELIEVE was the purpose of this thread - and said that everyone had the free will to chose to believe or not believe. Not once have I said so-and-so is going to - maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

But you notice the words you use - saying I'm spewing garbage and damning everyone who doesn't believe as I do - those are YOUR words, not mine. You believe it's garbage - okay - you're free to do so. But there are many of us here who believe otherwise - and that's okay too!

It's insane that you can't see fundamentalist Christianity as hate-filled. Reminds me of all the crazy Muslims who about infidels corrupting their society.

[2centsworth]

It's insane that you can't see fundamentalist Christianity as hate-filled. Reminds me of all the crazy Muslims who about infidels corrupting their society.

cry me a river. Maybe pooping on a womans face is more loving to you. nobody hates you because you don't believe what we do. I admit my belief is a matter of faith. If you don't believe as I do, sobeit. I would still buy you a beer.

[Crookshanks]

It's insane that you can't see fundamentalist Christianity as hate-filled. Reminds me of all the crazy Muslims who about infidels corrupting their society.

I'm not a fundamentalist - I'm an evangelical christian. But even so, Fundamentalists can be very narrow-minded and legalistic, but they're not hate-filled. But you know what - even those that are EXTREMELY legalistic don't advocate killing those who don't believe as they do! So please don't compare them to the Muslim extremists.

Maybe you're confusing the fact that they hate sins such as abortion and sexuality with hating people. That's not true tho - they hate the sin, not the sinner!

[phyzik]

I've come to the conclusion there is really no point arguing with those that believe in some magical man who will save them and I have no quarell with them, I just posted my beliefs. I have my beliefs in myself, if the devine supreme ruller of the universe thinks I have lived my life wrong just because I didnt acknowledge him, then I honestly think he cant be a benevolent God who forgives all. There are just too many double standards about this supposed Christian God.

Im just curious, what happens to the next hobo that claims to be the ressurected Jesus and people waive his ass off as a crack head then he turns out to really be him? Somehow Christians are going to "Know"

Im sure people are going to accuse me of "giving up" but the truth is I was never trying to convert anyone, I was just expressing my views on the subject. I never engaged that nonsense unless it just sounded funny to me. I can understand the animosity with B2B and MH but I have never once said "your a ing moron for believing bull " so I really cant understand why people want to attack me for my beliefs, if I did then me, I must have been drunk or something. I will say though they came up with alot of the facts, no bull but facts, why I think organized religion is a bunch of bull .

Bottom line here is what I believe, all organized religion is a bunch of bull , there may be a larger en y humans may never be able to comprehend, but to think a religion created by man, ANY MAN, is correct, is setting yourself up for failure and I feel sorry for all of you being cowed by the bull .

I will finish with this, its like convincing a terrorist that they will not get Virgins for killing people in the name of their God. There's no way to convince them regardless of what evidence, being remotely correct or not, that they are wrong. They will believe what they want to believe.

[Winehole23]

Ecclesiastes 1:9

Jeez, y'all, reading through this thread it's like medieval philosophy never happened. Some of y'all need to put down the poison pens and get friendly with Western Civ.

Siger of Brabant(Averroism). Augustine of Hippo (neoplatonism). The Doctor Mellifluous.

Anselm of Canterbury, St. Bonaventure, Thomas Aquinas, Dun Scotus, William of Ockham.

The an hesis of reason and revelation goes way, way back. Rather than attempt to do justice to the philosophical bramble growing up around it, follow the links. As suggested upstream by ES no amount of "liberated thinking" subs utes for doing your homework. I think I need to brush up on mine.

Etienne Gilson has good commentaries on the reason/revelation antinomy, both in short and long form. He's a neo-thomist and thinks the two can be harmonized. I'm not, but I temperamentally agree. Natural science and theology do not necessarily contradict.

"(Gilson)To have faith is to assent to something because it is revealed by God. And now, what is it to have science? It is to assent to something which we perceive as true in the light of natural reason. The essential difference between these two distinct orders of assent should be carefully kept in mind by anybody dealing with the relations of Reason and Revelation."

"(Aquinas)it is impossible that one and the same thing should be believed and seen by the same person...it is equally impossible for one and the same thing to be an object of science and of belief for the same person"

All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it. H. L. Mencken

[Summers]

Even though I never 100% support much due to the fact that I must leave the door open for anyone who can present something that proves me wrong,I must keep an open mind.

I don't 100% agree with everything Kent Hovind says but he does bring up some good evidence and it would be good if you would listen to a few of his speeches.

In this debate he goes head to head with three others.

I watched an hour and 36 minutes of this (actually, I listened to it while I worked) and I'm still listening to it, but it's moved to questions from the audience, so I think I might call it a night soon. I found it really interesting, although at the moment, and I'm not kidding, he's comparing evolutionists to crazy psycho killers.

I'm going to be honest and say I know nothing about astronomy (yawn) or the details of carbon-dating, so I was intrigued by what he said about carbon 14. But what I do know a little something about is biology and evolution so I recognize the things he said about evolution as wrong or half-truths. The fossil record myth is one example. He is flat out wrong about vestigial bones and transitional forms in whales. He says we have no evidence that whales descended from four-legged creatures, when in fact we do. Creationists like to say there's no fossil record of transitional forms. I can show you what I think is a really fascinating example of whale transitional forms. It's only 5 minutes, but I watched an hour and 44 minutes now of your video:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/li.../l_034_05.html

In addition to shaky evidence, he came off as very used-car-salesmany (with all due respect and apology to car salesmen). He ironically mocks evolution because we have never observed evolution in action (false, by the way). Three separate times in his presentation he implied that humans are incapable of morality and have no purpose in life except that which is given by God, calling evolution "stupid" and "dangerous". He asked if evolution is right how do we know right vs wrong? Do we ask Al Qaeda or Congress to tell us what's right or wrong? Again, irony.

He provided an interesting example of how science works without realizing it, I think. He told of National Geographic paying $80,000 for a fossil of of a dinosaur-bird transitional form. After examining it, they discovered the fossil was a hoax and quickly printed up a mea culpa. In other words, they admitted they were wrong about the fossil when the evidence didn't match their expectations. I would be thrilled if Hovind would simply admit at the beginning of his presentation instead of the end that his goal was to save my soul. That would be more honest and then he could stick to matters on which he's an expert instead of presenting false information about science.

[mouse]

That was a well unbiased review you should do movie reviews!

Did you notice how the Atheist would always make some sort of remark like "did anyone understand what he just said?" Or they would laugh and say "that was a mouth full"

He did bring up a good point that many people want to believe in evolution so they won't have to obey any of the 10 commandments or follow any rules. He said most people don't really believe man cam from an ape they just don't want to be a so called Jesus freak so they have no choice but to cling onto the Darwin theories.

To be honest if Mr.Hovind would just stick to exposing the Atheist and not mention the Bible so much he would probably win over more collage students.

To be honest if Andy (who i can't stand) can prove the earth is not Billions of years old I would quote him also.

[MiamiHeat]

Wow. Apparently I must LIVE on SpursTalk and not have a real life.

If I am missing from the thread , it MUST be because I have nothing more to say, right?

can't be that I have real life to go back to. it's 2:21 AM and i came to check what happened here. ridiculous, i'll be back tomorrow

[Summers]

So let me get this straight! Your able to quote a book written in 2007-2008 but I and others can't quote the Bible? How is that fair?

I don't care about the cowboy boot. You can Google it yourself It's not just Kent Hovind who feels it's a fossil, in fact i went to another site to get the info.

but since your in a debunking mood, let me toss a few others at you.

How long does it take to form sedimentary layers? Charles Officer is a research professor at Dartmouth. In his 1996 book, The Great Dinosaur Extinction Mystery, he says, "...a rate of one centimeter per 1000 years is typical," But just look and think about this 30 foot fossil tree. It is one of hundreds found near Cookville, TN in the Kettles coal mines which derived their name from the shape of the lower portion of these fossil trees. This tree begins in one coal seam, protrudes upward through numerous layers and finally into another layer of coal.

Think about that. What would happen to the top of the tree in the thousands of years necessary to cover it at the rate postulated by Officer. Derek Ager, one of the world’s best known statigraphers, addresses this challenge, acknowledging "...standing trees up to 10 m high in the Lancashire coalfield of north-west England. ...Obviously sedimentation had to be very rapid to bury a tree in a standing position before it rotted and fell down. ...Standing trees are known at many levels and in many parts of the world. ...we cannot escape the conclusion that sedimentation was at times very rapid indeed and that at other times there were long breaks in the sedimentation, though it looks uniform and continuous,

In spite of how it looks, long periods of time are still claimed, "shoehorned" between the layers, where there is no evidence. Now, which is really better science...imaginative explanations about why things are not as they appear to be, or a determination to follow the implications of what we actually see?

Mudslides, silt (like in a river delta), or volcanic eruptions would cause that kind of rapid sedimentation.

Edited to add a recent example: the city of Pompeii (sp?). A whole city buried alive and remained intact.

[Summers]

That was a well unbiased review you should do movie reviews!

Did you notice how the Atheist would always make some sort of remark like "did anyone understand what he just said?" Or they would laugh and say "that was a mouth full"

He did bring up a good point that many people want to believe in evolution so they won't have to obey any of the 10 commandments or follow any rules. He said most people don't really believe man cam from an ape they just don't want to be a so called Jesus freak so they have no choice but to cling onto the Darwin theories.

To be honest if Mr.Hovind would just stick to exposing the Atheist and not mention the Bible so much he would probably win over more collage students.

To be honest if Andy (who i can't stand) can prove the earth is not Billions of years old I would quote him also.

Yes, to be fair, the biologist was haughty and rude. I should've mentioned that. He didn't "always" say "Did anyone understand that?" He said it once. To be fair, you should mention that the astronomer on the scientific panel said he was a devout Christian. It's bull to say people believe in evolution so they don't have to follow rules. I'm not trying to give an unbiased review of this debate. You told me he made some good points. I honestly didn't think so, but I tried to say so politely in my response. You should give me credit for watching the whole thing. I sincerely believe he brought false evidence to a scientific debate and got his hat handed to him.

"He said most people don't really believe man cam from an ape they just don't want to be a so called Jesus freak so they have no choice but to cling onto the Darwin theories." Actually I believe what he said is most people believe in God and tried to imply that the majority must be right.

Edited for spelling.

[Summers]

I've just realized the time and I'm forcing myself to go to bed, but not without saying that I always enjoy a lively debate but it's not personal. Mouse, it's been a pleasure having to think things I hadn't before. You were snarky, but I know you're a good guy because in the troll forum we often make sweet love. I also want to make it clear to Mouse and others, for my own reasons, that I am not debating God, just evolution/creationism.

Good night and get some sleep!

[2centsworth]

I've come to the conclusion there is really no point arguing with those that believe in some magical man who will save them and I have no quarell with them, I just posted my beliefs. I have my beliefs in myself, if the devine supreme ruller of the universe thinks I have lived my life wrong just because I didnt acknowledge him,

you're wrong because you're a filthy sinner like the rest of us. why try to play innocent? funny how no one is ever guilty of anything, no wonder the dudes in prison always say they are innocent.

then I honestly think he cant be a benevolent God who forgives all.

of course he forgives all, but you're too proud to ask for forgiveness.

There are just too many double standards about this supposed Christian God.

?

Im just curious, what happens to the next hobo that claims to be the ressurected Jesus and people waive his ass off as a crack head then he turns out to really be him? Somehow Christians are going to "Know"

now you're playing games.

Im sure people are going to accuse me of "giving up" but the truth is I was never trying to convert anyone, I was just expressing my views on the subject. I never engaged that nonsense unless it just sounded funny to me. I can understand the animosity with B2B and MH but I have never once said "your a ing moron for believing bull " so I really cant understand why people want to attack me for my beliefs, if I did then me, I must have been drunk or something. I will say though they came up with alot of the facts, no bull but facts, why I think organized religion is a bunch of bull .

i'm trying to engage you, but you don't stay focused on a line of reasoning. You're all over the place. Stick to one point.

Bottom line here is what I believe, all organized religion is a bunch of bull , there may be a larger en y humans may never be able to comprehend, but to think a religion created by man, ANY MAN, is correct, is setting yourself up for failure and I feel sorry for all of you being cowed by the bull .

you are the envy of the universe.

I will finish with this, its like convincing a terrorist that they will not get Virgins for killing people in the name of their God. There's no way to convince them regardless of what evidence, being remotely correct or not, that they are wrong. They will believe what they want to believe.

again, all over the place

[Blackjack]

Is there a God?

Well, the correct answer would be no answer.

For those that choose to make the leap of faith, there's no argument to dissuade. Faith isn't a matter of logic or reason, so to debate it is futile.

For the posters that want to debate people, places, or events, by which religions are founded upon? There is definitely a debate to be had. Which I think is what B2B was trying to get at, when he was trying to seperate faith from the argument.

Whatever side you're on, the debate is certainly worth having. Well thought opposing viewpoints (which have been demonstrated in this thread) force the wit to be sharpened, thus bringing a more intelligent and evolved debate. The debate might not lead to a conversion, but some times success is found in the confirmation of ones views.

I've personally never felt the need to choose, or come to a conclusion, one way or the other. I figure we'll all have our answer soon enough.

I try to live a decent life, treat people with respect, and do more harm than good in general, but that's just me. I guess I feel if there is a "God", I'd feel like I was in pretty good shape, and if not, those are the type of things one wouldn't regret.

I think the real question that should be asked is:

Is God the answer for you?

If having faith and believeing brings, comfort, happiness, or purpose to your life? Than so be it.

If the belief in a god, or the idea of faith, insults your intelligence? Than so be it.

I guess all you can do is, find what works for you, and pray/hope for the best.


True believers, will believe.

Skeptics theories will always fail...

While skeptics find religion based in faith,

Leaves holes for logic and reason to prevail.

Really enjoyed the thread so far, props to all that contributed.

[MiamiHeat]

By the way, that list is not even COMPLETE.

How about the fact that Set, a mighty God wanted to kill Horus the baby? Isis had to run and hide Horus.

while the mighty King Herod wanted to kill Jesus the baby? Mary had to run and hide Jesus.

-----

Horus, "the living God on Earth"
Jesus, "the living God on Earth"

-------------

Bethlehem is known as 'house of bread'. Horus' Anunn, also known as house of bread.

The similarities are so deep, the list is longer than that I posted.

I'll start with your 'refutations'

.

-Horus was born of the virgin (FALSE -- not a virgin)

Actually, Horus' birth WAS of an immaculate conception, aka virgin birth. You see, Osiris was DEAD. Isis tried to piece him back together, but she couldn't. His penis was thrown in a river. So she hovered over his body and 'drew his essence'.... She was impregnated by spirit. There was no actual intercourse and impregnation.

Isis was a -virgin goddess-. If you want to tell me that because she and Osiris were together that she wasn't a virgin, then how about we open the pickle jar and talk about Mary being married to Joseph yet still a virgin?


There is even another story about Mut-em-ua, the Virgin Queen of Egypt.

The God Taht announced to her that she would become pregnant.
The god Kneph (the Holy Spirit) mystically impregnated the virgin Isis by holding a cross, the symbol of life, to her mouth.

etc... This is not new. By the way, Mut is also one of ISIS' names. The Great Mother, Mut-Isis-Nekkhbet, all the same Goddess Mother.


- Isis-Meri (FALSE -- Merion is never appended to Isis)

Incorrect again. Isis is not her ONLY name. 'Goddess of Many Names' / 'Queen of the Gods' Click her for Link about Isis

She is also known as Aset, Ast, Est, Meri-En-Sakar, and many others.

You see Egyptian Gods had -many forms- but they were all just different incarnations of the same Gods. One of Isis' forms was the Goddess of Nature and Harvest - MERI-EN-SAKAR. Click here for link They are all forms of ISIS, the Mother.

Isis ultimately absorbed and represented hundreds if not thousands of different goddesses, all forms of the Mother, ISIS. Her worship survived until around the 6th century AD, until it was largely replaced by the new Mother, Mary, whose name was obviously influenced by Isis' form of MERI, Goddess of Nature and Harvest.






- December 25 (FALSE -- November 15, roughly)

Incorrect again. Ancient Egyptians, in fact, ALMOST EVERY MAJOR CIVILIZATION in human history celebrated Dec. 25th because that is when the Sun begins it's journey back to Spring and Summer.

This is said to be the Sun 'reborn' and coming back from death. Horus being the Sun God, Egyptians celebrated Horus birth as Dec. 21st-25th, but his ACTUAL entrance into Earth was "on the last day of the Egyptian Khoaik" which falls around Nov. 15

Jesus' birth day is NEVER mentioned in the Bible, however it too is celebrated on Dec. 25th once again, to coincide with the worship of the Sun. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.

Therefore, both Horus and Jesus are just forms of Sun worship and their birthdays ARE celebrated on Dec. 21st-25th even though NEITHER Jesus nor Horus was actually born on that day.

with his birth being announced by a star in the East (FALSE -- fabrication)

The Star in the East is Sirius. Sirius was -THE MOST IMPORTANT- Star to ancient Egyptians. The entire Egyptian calendar was based on the rising of Sirius. They created 12 months, with 30 days each.

Sirius is also EQUIVALENT to -Isis- .

link here

So. Isis aka Sirius, the mother of Horus, heralds her son's/the Sun's arrival.


and attended by three wise men.(FALSE -- fabrication, and note that the number of Magi in the biblical account is never defined)

Once again...

The Bible says the wise men brought 3 gifts. Gold, frankincense and myrrh. We assume it's 3 men.

However, we can now be SURE it is 3 men. The wise men ask Herod "Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

They saw his star in the east. The bright Star in The East has always been known as SIRIUS. In Orion's belt, there are 3 stars that point to Sirius. They always point to Sirius. They have always been called the THE THREE KINGS OF ORION.

By the way, Sirius is known as Isis, the constellation near Sirius is that of Orion, which was attributed to Osiris. Horus coming from the Father, through the Mother, to rise on Earth. Jesus says I come from my Father who sent me. Horus coming from Osiris (Orion)

-3- stars point directly to Sirius, which in turn, Sirius heralds the coming of the Sun. The Three Kings of Orion.


I will do the rest later.

[MiamiHeat]

About Jesus being born in Nazareth :

Nazareth is very closely worded to Nazaroth which in Hebrew is “the twelve signs (of the zodiac).” The root verb nazar means to “surround” as in the twelve constellations of the zodiac which pass overhead each night, thus surrounding the earth.[22] Job is reminded of his human limitations and the celestial astrological power of Yahweh, when the latter speaks to him from a raging desert whirlwind:

Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Nazaroth in his season?[23]

This theory is supported by the evidence that the inhabitants of Qumran by the Dead Sea, who Pliny referred to as Essenes, used a solar-based calendar, rather than the traditional lunar-based Judaic calendar. Pliny the Younger reported in a letter to the emperor Trajan in 112 CE that “Christians appear to be harmless people who meet at daybreak and sign hymns to the honor of the Christo quasi deo (the Christ as if he were a god).”

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...gin_birth.html

[mouse]

Mudslides, silt (like in a river delta), or volcanic eruptions would cause that kind of rapid sedimentation.

Edited to add a recent example: the city of Pompeii (sp?). A whole city buried alive and remained intact.

or maybe a flood? I like how the Atheist avoid bringing up the flood because it may give the bible some merit. Where scientist screw up is when they claim each layer is a million years old. Everyone knows if you have jar full of water dirt and sand and you shake it you will see it settle down in layers. And usually in a matter of minutes.
Scientist use the layers as a way to figure out the age of the earth using the geologic column which doesn't exist anywhere only in the text books.


They show the fossils found in each layer to give you a chart on how to determine age of a certain fossil.

But it's been exposed as a fake since scientist now know it didn't take a millions of years to create. They have found in a mine many trees that where not only standing up but some of them where upside down with layers of sediment. It proved that layers don't always mean millions of years.

[mouse]

Another point: Niagara falls reseeds at least 4 feet each year due to erosion of the rock from the power of the rushing water. The crest of the falls can be do ented and photos show it's progress. The question is if the earth is at least a half a million years old the water fall should have move all the way to lake Eerie by now.

[MiamiHeat]

Judaism's "Noah's Flood" is a plagiarization of Babylonian "EPIC OF GILGAMESH" and even the much older Sumerian story in "Eridu Genesis" of the Flood where Gods decide to destroy mankind with a flood.

===================================
The earliest extant Flood myth is the fragmentary Sumerian Eridu Genesis, datable by its script to the 17th century BC.[1]

The Sumerian myth tells how the god Enki warns Ziusudra (meaning "he saw life," in reference to the gift of immortality given him by the gods), of the gods' decision to destroy mankind in a flood - the passage describing why the gods have decided this is lost. Enki instructs Ziusudra (also known as Atrahasis) to build a large boat - the text describing the instructions is also lost. After which he is left to repopulate the earth, as in many other flood myths.

After a flood of seven days, Zi-ud-sura makes appropriate sacrifices and prostrations to An (sky-god) and Enlil (chief of the gods), and is given eternal life in Dilmun (the Sumerian Eden) by An and Enlil.

====================


Yeah, even Noah's flood is copied from older stories.

Sorry to break it to ya

Oh, and http://www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2002/PSCF9-02Hill.pdf

[Summers]

or maybe a flood? I like how the Atheist avoid bringing up the flood because it may give the bible some merit. Where scientist screw up is when they claim each layer is a million years old. Everyone knows if you have jar full of water dirt and sand and you shake it you will see it settle down in layers. And usually in a matter of minutes.
Scientist use the layers as a way to figure out the age of the earth using the geologic column which doesn't exist anywhere only in the text books.


They show the fossils found in each layer to give you a chart on how to determine age of a certain fossil.

But it's been exposed as a fake since scientist now know it didn't take a millions of years to create. They have found in a mine many trees that where not only standing up but some of them where upside down with layers of sediment. It proved that layers don't always mean millions of years.

Good morning Mouse.

I didn't bring up a flood because flood waters recede and only leave a few inches of silt, not yards. I was answering your question: mudslides, delta silt, or volcanoes cause polystrate fossils like the one pictured. I'm not a geologist, but upright fossils are found along with evidence of the phenomena I've mentioned and do not expose the fossil record as fake.

[Summers]

Another point: Niagara falls reseeds at least 4 feet each year due to erosion of the rock from the power of the rushing water. The crest of the falls can be do ented and photos show it's progress. The question is if the earth is at least a half a million years old the water fall should have move all the way to lake Eerie by now.

Who said Niagara Falls is as old as the Earth? In fact, the point I've made before is that the superficial features of the Earth change over time. I don't know what was there a billion years ago. Maybe it was a small volcano. Maybe it was a rain forest. Maybe a receding glacier carved up the landscape. Maybe the faultline shifted and then a stream of water did the rest.

Edited to say I couldn't resist googling it and Niagara Falls is about 12,000 years old, which is when the last glacier receding from North America.

[BacktoBasics]

Actually MH touched on a few things I was going to post this morning for ES.

I'm going to go back to my original point because its lost once again. I never set out to prove that there is no god. I'm tired of you people telling me that I haven't proved that there is no god because that was never my point.

Furthermore I stated from day 1 that many gods whether their lifes and times correlate to Jesus or not are personifications of astrological bodies rooted in relative time on earth.

Going back to the pagan calendar times and eras in relation to real time point to significant constellations summed up here

The zodiac is the belt or band of constellations through which the Sun, Moon, and planets move on their journey across the sky. Astrologers noted these constellations and so attached a particular significance to them. Over time they developed the system of twelve signs of the zodiac, based on twelve of the constellations they considered to be particularly important. Most western astrologers use the tropical zodiac beginning with the sign of Aries at the Northern hemisphere Vernal Equinox always on or around March 21 of each year. Due to a phenomenon called precession of the equinoxes (where the Earth's axis slowly rotates like a spinning top in a 25,700 year cycle), there is a slow shift in the correspondence between Earth's seasons (and calendar) and the constellations of the zodiac. For this reason some Western astrologers use the Sidereal zodiac which still uses the actual star positions.

Important dates:

Easter should be associated with Passover, but Passover is fixed at 14th Nisan in the Hebrew calendar while Easter was fixed by the increasingly anti-Semitic church to fall on the Sunday after the full moon following the spring equinox

The name, "Easter" is derived from a pagan spring / fertility deity who appears variously as Eostre, the Saxon goddess of dawn with a hare's head (the origin of Easter bunnies), Ishtar from Ninevah, introduced into Britain with the Druids, Astarte the queen of heaven from Babylon whose worship involved sexual depravity! (The egg figures prominently in the worship of Easter - Astarte was said to have sprung from an Egg which fell from Heaven into the Euphrates) Even the fast of Lent which was introduce in the sixth century was borrowed from Babylon. A similar fast was observed by the Egyptians in commemoration of Osiris.

Palm Sunday This was not necessarily a Sunday on the year of Jesus' entry to Jerusalem, but the event occured on 10th of Nisan. Jesus entered Jerusalem to be tested by the religious authorities on the day that the Passover lambs were taken into the homes to be inspected to ensure they were free from blemish and suitable to be sacrificed.

The traditional greeting to pilgrims coming up to Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) for Passover was "Baruch haba bashem Adonai" (Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (Psalm 118 v 26). This took on a special significance when Jesus entered Jerusalem. (His name Yeshua means "The Lord is Salvation")

Christmas was not celebrated until the fourth century. The date of 25th December was fixed by the Council of Nicea to take over the pagan midwinter solstice festival of sol invictus (unconquered sun). It also conveniently took over the Roman winter festival of Saturnalia; December 17-21st. There were pragmatic reasons for this but it taints the celebration of our Saviour's birth with pagan symbols and customs.

Shabbat, The Saturday Sabbath was observed by the early church and was kept in Britain until around the twelfth century. The celebration of a Sunday Sabbath (even as "resurrection day" ) was never commanded in scripture. The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was another victim of the state controlled church's desire to cut away from Jewish roots. Shabbat was the sign of the LORD's chosen and faithful people, the one which marked out the Jews for persecution down through the ages.


So what you have is a structure of organized beliefs thats centered around dates of significant importance in relation to periods of time. I managed to find a clip done by someone with way too much time on their hands

Prophecy ... (Daniel 9:24)



"He (Messiah ... the King] will be revealed

7 weeks + 62 weeks (weeks of years)

after the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls,

then He [Messiah] will be cut-off (executed)."

(Daniel 9:24)



This is a mathematical prophecy . . .



- A week of years (shabua or shabu’im) = 7 years

- "Cut-off". . . the actual Hebrew word used was karath, literally means "executed!"

- The "70th Week" [the last 7 years] of this prophecy is yet future - See the 'Apocalypse.'



God gave the Jews the most sophisticated calendar on Earth. It is both a Lunar and a Solar calendar. The Jewish calendar uses a 360 day lunar (and prophetic) year and then adds a 'Leap Month' on specific years to accurately coincide with the Solar cycle we use on our 'Julian' calendar ...



The Bible uses 360 day years for prophecies and expects us to add the appropriate 'leap months' on schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...



1. Add 7 + 62 weeks of years = 69 weeks of years in this prophecy

2. Multiply 69 (weeks) x 7 (to get the total number of years in this prophecy) = 483 years

3. Multiply 483 years x 360 (to get the total number of days in this prophecy) = 173,880 days



So, the prophet Daniel, who lived 500 years before Jesus-Yeshua wrote that from the day of the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls, until the coming Messiah would be 173,880 days!

(Note: This prophecy was also translated from Hebrew into Greek in the Septuagint almost 300 years before Jesus-Yeshua made His prophetic entry into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey.)



To convert the 173,880 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) . . .



173,880 days ÷ 365.25 (days in a year) = 476 years (our solar 'Julian' calendar)



So, the prophet Daniel told us it would be 476 years from the 'commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls' to the time the Messiah of Israel would first be revealed to the nation and to the world ...





The Commandment ...



This prophecy of the coming Messiah is both remarkable and extremely precise. There were other orders to rebuild the Temple, but, there was only one commandment to restore Jerusalem and its wall. On March 14th, 445 BC, as confirmed by modern archaeology, King Artexerxes I of Persia issued the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and specifically included its wall (see Nehemiah 2:2-9 ... the book of Nehemiah records this account of rebuilding the city and its wall.)





Prophecy fulfilled ...



Now take the 476 years in this prophecy and simply start counting from March 14, 445 B.C. (when the command to rebuild the city Jerusalem and its wall was given) and you end on the exact year (even the very day) Jesus-Yeshua rode 'triumphantly' into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday), being praised as King and Messiah by thousands upon thousands of the Jewish people who had gathered from all over for the Passover Holidays. Honored, yet lowly, riding on a donkey - exactly as another prophet, the prophet Zechariah, said He would ...



"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion [Israel]!

Behold, your King [Messiah] is coming to you;

He is just and having salvation,

yet He is lowly and riding on a donkey."

(Zechariah 9:9 ... written around 500 B.C.)



Thus, on the 10th day of Nisan ('Palm Sunday') 32 AD ... 476 years after the command was given to rebuild the city and its wall ... Jesus-Yeshua made His famous triumphal entry into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey. It was the only day that He ever allowed Himself to be honored as Messiah or King (Mark 11:1-12) as the people of Israel cried out and sang "Hosanna to the Son of David [this is a Psalm of the Messiah], blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!" from Psalm 118 ... (and all this took place just a few days before He was 'executed' exactly as Daniel's prophecy said He would!)

A remarkable prophecy . . . simply count the years!

March 14, 445 B.C. Order is issued to rebuild the wall

to April 6, 32 A.D. 10th of Nisan, 'Palm Sunday' - Jesus welcomed as King and Messiah

= 477 years

- 1 year Subtract one for no "0" A.D. or B.C.

= 476 years Exactly!

So using math you can accurately go back and make significant correlations with a mul ude of different calendars depicting scores of important time periods, years, eras, seasons and so. All of which had their own special "god" or personification.

Since we find similarities between these personifications we see the pattern. Very little about Jesus was original. Most dates and moments of significance correlate to a personified god or time, era, season, year and so on.

Everything we have about Jesus is lifted from another source (god or time structure). There is zero first hand writings and everything thats referenced is a copy of a copy of a copy so much to the point that the very church which supports its cause questions authenticity. I've posted previously in this thread where the church has waited years, decades and centuries before authenticating bodies of work due to uncertainty.

How can you site sources that the church finds questionable or has admittedly altered to fit modern Christianity?

We can argue specifics about each and every god but the correlations still go back to time and math in relation to many variations of ancient calendars personifying points of interest.

So arguing the specifics of each god is competely irrelevant when it all boils down to mathematical time rooted in calendars long before the mathematical time pieces where used in the name of Jesus.