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  1. #101
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I suppose if somebody kicked you out of your own house in the first place, you wouldn't do something about it?
    Using past history is preposterous. The borders are defined. Besides, Israel occupied that land long before the Palestinians. As the map shown earlier as Palestine, tell me. Who was the Head of State then?

    Israel gets attacked. They move in. They occupy so they can reduce the attacks.

    If the Palestinians would stop attacking, I can guarantee you, Israel would move out!

    Personally, since men who desire power use Mohammad and Jihad to attack Israel over and over, I think Israel should just wipe them out take the land over and impose Marshall Law there as many generations as it takes to subdue the people there. It's far from a perfect answer, but it looks like nothing will work short of genocide.

  2. #102
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    Using past history is preposterous. The borders are defined. Besides, Israel occupied that land long before the Palestinians. As the map shown earlier as Palestine, tell me. Who was the Head of State then?
    Personally, since men who desire power use Mohammad and Jihad to attack Israel over and over, I think Israel should just wipe them out take the land over and impose Marshall Law there as many generations as it takes to subdue the people there. It's far from a perfect answer, but it looks like nothing will work short of genocide.
    How is history preposterous? We are not talking about 2000 years ago, but rather recent history. The people driven off their land can still identify their homes!

    Secondly Israel is basically already do that! They have being doing it and continue to do it! They are just not being called out on it. Israel is as rogue state as they come. Where do you think people in the refugee camps in Gaza come from? They are from where today we call Israel. Israel drove off their lands and now they are being harassed in the refugee camps. Face it Israel as jewish state COULD NOT EXIST unless it either committed genocide or drove Arabs off their land.

    Here is some info from the LIBRARY OF CONGRESS.

    The property of the Arabs who were refugees outside the state and the property expropriated from the Arabs who remained in Israel became a major asset to the new state. According to Don Peretz, an American scholar, by 1954 "more than one-third of Israel's Jewish population lived on absentee property, and nearly a third of the new immigrants (250,000 people) settled in the urban areas abandoned by Arabs." The fleeing Arabs emptied thriving cities such as Jaffa, Acre (Akko), Lydda (Lod), and Ramla, plus "338 towns and villages and large parts of 94 other cities and towns, containing nearly a quarter of all the buildings in Israel."
    To the Israeli Arabs, one of the more devastating aspects of the loss of their property was their knowledge that the loss was legally irreversible. The early Zionist settlers--particularly those of the Second Aliyah--adopted a rigid policy that land purchased or in any way acquired by a Jewish organization or individual could never again be sold, leased, or rented to a nonJew . The policy went so far as to preclude the use of non-Jewish labor on the land. This policy was carried over into the new state. At independence the State of Israel succeeded to the "state lands" of the British Mandate Authority, which had "inherited" the lands held by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish National Fund was the operating and controlling agency of the Land Development Authority and ensured that land once held by Jews-- either individually or by the "sovereign state of the Jewish people"--did not revert to non-Jews. This denied Israel's nonJewish , mostly Arab, population access to about 95 percent of the land.
    Israel gets attacked. They move in. They occupy so they can reduce the attacks.

    If the Palestinians would stop attacking, I can guarantee you, Israel would move out!
    Another fallacy. If its about security, why does Israel continue with Settlements? Do you that Israel places settlements in the heart of Arab neighborhoods that costs alot of money, not to mention the security hassles that creates and the burden it places on the Arabs? For instance look at the former Gaza settlements and tell me they placed it where it is because of SECURITY. My ass. I can show you the ones in Hebron and other west bank cities.



    Lets call it what it is. Arabs want the jews off the land. Jews want the Arabs off the land. The media calls the Arabs barbabians because they don't hide it. While the Jews do it quietly and subtly and the media/us govt doesn't call them out, despite actually doing what the Arabs intent/want to do. If anything Arabs have more claim to the land because they've actually lived on it for centuries, while you have jews from russia, america, europe, africa claiming it when they have NO RIGHT other then its written in the bible.

  3. #103
    Believe. Backdoorman's Avatar
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    it when they have NO RIGHT other then its written in the bible.
    Jews first came to the land of Israel as a nation, in the year 1272 BCE. This dates back 1800-1900 years before Islam even began! For the next 13 centuries, Jewish Kings and prophets changed the world spiritually and culturally. Finally, the Jews were exiled by the Romans (their second exile) from being an autonomous ruling kingdom in Israel in the year 70 CE. This means that 600 years before Islam was even created - Jews were already yearning to come back to their land! Thus, it is impossible to begin looking in the year 638 CE to understand what's happening in the
    Middle East, since there is a rich Jewish history much before.

  4. #104
    Poker Phenom. Heath Ledger's Avatar
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    Israel is so gonna get nuked one day.

  5. #105
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Using past history is preposterous. The borders are defined. Besides, Israel occupied that land long before the Palestinians. As the map shown earlier as Palestine, tell me. Who was the Head of State then?

    Israel gets attacked. They move in. They occupy so they can reduce the attacks.

    If the Palestinians would stop attacking, I can guarantee you, Israel would move out!

    Personally, since men who desire power use Mohammad and Jihad to attack Israel over and over, I think Israel should just wipe them out take the land over and impose Marshall Law there as many generations as it takes to subdue the people there. It's far from a perfect answer, but it looks like nothing will work short of genocide.
    There's no solution other than genocide. And Israel will not go that route for a number of logistical/political reasons, unless their foes have the means to wipe Israel off. The thing is, I think at this point genocide in that region is unavoidable. And if I had to wager where we'll see the next nuclear bomb, I would go all in on that region. But this is exactly why these skirmishes over Gaza serve no purpose other than to flex some muscle. You know these terrorists do not fight conventional wars. They'll go seek refuge now, use any civilian killed as propaganda to further their support, and will come back out as soon as things calm down a bit.

  6. #106
    Each Day Offers Potential Darrin's Avatar
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/wo...t.html?_r=1&hp

    In a telephone briefing for a group of foreign correspondents, a senior Israeli military official said that Israeli troops would hold the areas they have taken inside Gaza at least for the duration of the operation to prevent militants from returning to fire rockets from there.

    “We don’t plan to retake the Gaza Strip but there are several places we control now and will control later,” he said. “If it will be needed, we are prepared to stay there.”

    The military has warned that the campaign could take “many long days.”
    So much for a cease-fire and peaceful resolution to the ethnic conflict...again. Lucy just moved the football, Charlie Brown.

  7. #107
    Each Day Offers Potential Darrin's Avatar
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    Hamas leaders in Gaza were in hiding, but a Hamas spokesman said Saturday night by video that the “moment of decision has arrived” and that Gaza would be the Israeli Army’s “graveyard.”

  8. #108
    Each Day Offers Potential Darrin's Avatar
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/wo...assess.html?hp

    EREZ CROSSING, on the Israel-Gaza border — As Israel’s tanks and troops poured into Gaza on Saturday, the next phase in its fierce attempt to end rocket attacks, a question hung over the operation: can the rockets really be stopped for any length of time while Hamas remains in power in Gaza?

    And if the answer is determined to be no, then is the real aim of the operation to remove Hamas entirely, no matter the cost?

    After her visit to Paris on Thursday to explain to French authorities why she thought this was not the time for a quick cease-fire, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni of Israel said, “There is no doubt that as long as Hamas controls Gaza, it is a problem for Israel, a problem for the Palestinians and a problem for the entire region.”

    Vice Premier Haim Ramon went even further Friday night in an interview on Israeli television, saying Israel must not end this operation with Hamas in charge of Gaza.

    “What I think we need to do is to reach a situation in which we do not allow Hamas to govern,” Mr. Ramon said on Channel One. “That is the most important thing.”

    Neither Prime Minister Ehud Olmert nor Defense Minister Ehud Barak has made such a statement. Still, there is a growing and shared concern among Israeli leaders that any letup against Hamas would be problematic for Israel’s broad goals in the long term because it could bolster and validate the group, which says Israel should be destroyed.

    “If the war ends in a draw, as expected, and Israel refrains from re-occupying Gaza, Hamas will gain diplomatic recognition,” wrote Aluf Benn, a political analyst, in the newspaper Haaretz on Friday. “No matter what you call it,” he added, “Hamas will obtain legitimacy.”

    In addition, any potential truce deal would probably include an increase in commercial traffic from Israel and Egypt into Gaza, which is Hamas’s central demand: to end the economic boycott and border closing it has been facing. To build up the Gaza economy under Hamas, Israeli leaders say, would be to build up Hamas. Yet withholding the commerce would continue to leave 1.5 million Gazans living in despair.

    Implicit in Mr. Benn’s argument, however, is that the only way to stop Hamas from gaining legitimacy is for Israel to fully occupy Gaza again, more than three years after removing its soldiers and settlers. That is a prospect practically no one in Israel or abroad is advocating.

    Moreover, while it may sound decisive to speak of taking Hamas out of power, almost no one familiar with Gaza and Palestinian politics considers it realistic. Hamas legislators won a democratic majority in elections four years ago, and the group has 15,000 to 20,000 men under arms. It has consolidated its rule in the past 18 months since pushing out its rivals loyal to the more Western-oriented and moderate Fatah party of President Mahmoud Abbas, who sits in Ramallah in the West Bank.

    And while there are plenty of Gazans who would prefer Fatah, they seem hardly organized or strong enough to become the new rulers, even with the help of former colleagues in exile in Ramallah who say, anyway, that they would never be willing to ride into Gaza on the back of an Israeli tank. In fact, the longer Israel pounds Gaza, the weaker Fatah is likely to become because it will be seen as collaborating.

    The likelier result of a destruction of the Hamas infrastructure, then, would be chaos, anathema not only to the people of Gaza but also to those hoping for peace in southern Israel.

    Yet in its campaign so far, which has killed scores of children and other bystanders, Israel has not spared the trappings of Hamas sovereignty or limited itself to military targets. It says that the mosques it has destroyed were weapons storehouses and that the Islamic University, which it has hit repeatedly, housed explosives factories. But it has also reduced many government buildings to rubble without any claim that they were military in nature.

    “The government buildings are a place where financial, logistical and human resources serve to support terror,” said Capt. Benjamin Rutland, a spokesman for the Israeli military. “Much of the government is involved in the active support and planning of terror.”

    Taken together, it suggests that even if Israel intends to hold back from completely overthrowing Hamas, its choice of assault tactics could head that way anyway. And the Israelis may already be facing a kind of mission creep: after all, if enough of Hamas’s infrastructure is destroyed, the prospect of governing Gaza, a densely populated, refugee-filled area whose weak economy has been devastated by the Israeli-led boycott, will be exceedingly difficult.

    In the background, too, is broad international criticism of this war on Gaza, not only because of the unspeakable suffering seen on television screens but also because of a feeling that Israel has tried such tactics in the past and never succeeded.

    In particular, many point to the 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, where Israel also tried to destroy rocket launchers and a hostile organization’s infrastructure, only to end up killing many civilians and leaving Hezbollah more popular and perhaps ultimately stronger than before the war.

    But military planners here say that the parallel is inexact and that they, too, have learned a lesson. Gaza is smaller and flatter than southern Lebanon and, most important, does not have a sievelike border with a country like Syria where arms can be constantly resupplied. Destroying the smuggler tunnels from the Egyptian Sinai into Gaza and systematically eliminating weapons depots and launcher sites, along with their supporting infrastructures, will ultimately succeed, they contend.

    It may take weeks or months, they assert, but it can work. If true, questions still remain: At what human cost? And who will be in charge when it is all over?

  9. #109
    Believe. byrontx's Avatar
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    I admit to some burned out apathy here. The Jews and Palestinians seem to deserve each other. Electing Hamas was a "please keep beating me collective idiotic move" and the Zionists will only stop their bible prophecy fulfillment when a nuke goes off in Tel Aviv.

  10. #110
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for different results.

    Israel thinks it can achieve peace through bombing the out of a desperate population? What the are these people smoking? How many people have been killed by rockets fired off by Hamas? Nothing in comparison to the death toll a few days of unleashing American military equipment has wrought on a defenseless population.

    This is bull . I don't want my tax dollars going to these racist ass holes in Israel anymore. We give a country of 5 million people $30 billion in aid every year just so they can make the Islamic world hate the US even more? A country as brutal as Israel doesn't deserve to exist.

    When al-Bashir's government does this in Darfur we call it genocide, when Israel does it we call it self defense?

  11. #111
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    This is bull . I don't want my tax dollars going to these racist ass holes in Israel anymore. We give a country of 5 million people $30 billion in aid every year just so they can make the Islamic world hate the US even more? A country as brutal as Israel doesn't deserve to exist.
    You're right. We should get rid of Israel and let a culture that preaches the brutal hate and destruction of America take its place.

    Good ing call

    Seriously, how the do you empathize with a population in Gaza whose adults teach their children that the only path in life is to strap a bomb to your chest and go to Israel and kill you some Jews?

    THAT'S brutal. Those are the racist assholes who don't deserve to exist. Israel would happily live their lives in peace with the rest of the Middle East. Instead they're surrounded by assholes who want to exterminate them, who funnel their money and weapons to Hamas in a proxy war against the Jews.

    Yeah, Israel really doesn't have a right to exist

  12. #112
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    There's no solution other than genocide. And Israel will not go that route for a number of logistical/political reasons, unless their foes have the means to wipe Israel off. The thing is, I think at this point genocide in that region is unavoidable. And if I had to wager where we'll see the next nuclear bomb, I would go all in on that region. But this is exactly why these skirmishes over Gaza serve no purpose other than to flex some muscle. You know these terrorists do not fight conventional wars. They'll go seek refuge now, use any civilian killed as propaganda to further their support, and will come back out as soon as things calm down a bit.
    don't be crazy. that might be a solution but is not the only one. Right now Israel is doing well, they are so powerful they can control a lot of what goes on in Palestine. They will never let Palestine become powerful or armed. Yeah they will allow them to play with toy rockets but no major weapon. That way they can throttle the development of Palestine and never ever let them become anything more than a 3rd world country of ignorance and hate

  13. #113
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    You're right. We should get rid of Israel and let a culture that preaches the brutal hate and destruction of America take its place.

    Good ing call

    Seriously, how the do you empathize with a population in Gaza whose adults teach their children that the only path in life is to strap a bomb to your chest and go to Israel and kill you some Jews?

    THAT'S brutal. Those are the racist assholes who don't deserve to exist. Israel would happily live their lives in peace with the rest of the Middle East. Instead they're surrounded by assholes who want to exterminate them, who funnel their money and weapons to Hamas in a proxy war against the Jews.

    Yeah, Israel really doesn't have a right to exist
    you cannot call them that without calling Israel what they truly are. Israel is like an anaconda and is slowly tightening the grip on their prey, which is Palestine. it goes both ways

  14. #114
    Believe. Rockhound's Avatar
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    I'll agree to the end of Israeli funding if ya'll agree to the opting out of social security.

  15. #115
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    racist ass holes in Israel
    I must have missed it. Did Israel say something negative about Obama?

  16. #116
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    This is what "Israel" doing in Gaza http://sabbah.blip.tv/#1642223 This video clip was taken with a mobile camera immediately after a terrorist Israeli air strike hit a busy market where kids with their mothers and fathers were searching for food to eat from one of the local markets early on Saturday 03, Jan 2009, Gaza Please spread the video widely. Let the world see what their news TV channels won't show about reality of Israel. Reupload it on youtube, Daily motion, google..or any other places

  17. #117
    Veteran velik_m's Avatar
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    This is what "Israel" doing in Gaza http://sabbah.blip.tv/#1642223 This video clip was taken with a mobile camera immediately after a terrorist Israeli air strike hit a busy market where kids with their mothers and fathers were searching for food to eat from one of the local markets early on Saturday 03, Jan 2009, Gaza Please spread the video widely. Let the world see what their news TV channels won't show about reality of Israel. Reupload it on youtube, Daily motion, google..or any other places
    Dude, did you sign up to this forum just to spread pro-palestinian propaganda?

  18. #118
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Weren't Palestinians lobbing missiles into Israel? Do you post the results of those attacks on YouTube?

  19. #119
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    This is not a resolvable conflict. The existence of Israel can never be acceptable to a Palestinian Muslim, and obviously the Israelis are not going to submit to obliteration. Since we can't turn the clock back to 1948 and decide not to par ion Palestine, the best available option is for Israel to persist within its current borders. ... It will continue to be attacked by Arab Muslims from Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon, and will continue to respond to eliminate those threats. The best we can hope for is to mitigate the loss of human life, and frankly that can only be done by applying pressure to Israel, because the Palestinian leadership does not care.
    In public at least, our government seems to be unwilling to do so. It's a shame it doesn't from time to time. Our reluctance to voice criticism of Israel enhances the perception that the US is prejudiced in favor of Israel and unfair to Arabs. It also may tend to create the impression that US support of Israel is unconditional.

    In today’s World, pacifism doesn’t serve to mollify, it merely allows the aggressor that we are attempting to appease additional leverage in their goals to subordinate, conquer and/or eliminate their targets. It’s truly naïve’ to believe that appeasing an enemy would serve to further peace with them.
    It's also naive to think that military force solves everything, and that pacifism is the only alternative to it. Calling negotiation and diplomacy "appeasement" only muddies the waters.

    OTOH, the very possibility of a political solution depends on a modi of mutual respect -- such as obtains between enemies. No deal can be done between foes who are pledged to mutual destruction.

    It does seem at this point that leaving Hamas in power would be a strategic mistake. Maybe Israel can do in Gaza what it couldn't in Lebanon -- though, in fairness, it's been awhile since I heard of any rocket attacks from Lebanon.

    Have there been any, JJ?

    Why hasn't the U.N. sent Peace Keeping forces to stop these attacks?
    Good question. Has Israel asked them to? Does Israel need UN assistance?

    They barely raise an eyebrow until Israel decided that enough is enough, and takes matters into their own hands, and then the action they do take is to condemn Israel.
    True enough. But the UN has little sway with non-state actors and other non-signatories. If signatories flaut the rules, they can expect to be picked on. I will say for the record that I think UN criticism of Israel is grossly disproportionate and generally unfair, but this is balanced somewhat by the US's Security Council veto wielded so consistently in its favor.

    They are, as I stated earlier, a tool for terrorism, and a facilitator of anti-semitism.
    We also have UN to thank for the par ion plan that created a Jewish state.

    Israel thinks it can achieve peace through bombing the out of a desperate population?

    We give a country of 5 million people $30 billion in aid every year just so they can make the Islamic world hate the US even more?
    That's one foreseeable result. I wonder what we're doing right now to balance out that perception.

    A country as brutal as Israel doesn't deserve to exist.
    Cf. the invasion of Iraq. Do we deserve to exist?

    When al-Bashir's government does this in Darfur we call it genocide, when Israel does it we call it self defense?
    Hmm. The comparison reveals more about your own commitments IMO than it does about the Israel/Palestinian conflict. The current Israeli attack on Gaza is violent and bloody, but it beggars credibility to compare it to the systematic depopulation of Darfur.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 01-06-2009 at 12:42 AM.

  20. #120
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Weren't Palestinians lobbing missiles into Israel? Do you post the results of those attacks on YouTube?
    The Palestinian people (who are paying the highest price) aren't responsible for this...this things not ever going to be resolved until the Palestinians and the Israeli learn to live together peacefully..and turning Gaza into a (bigger) slum isn't going to rid the area of Hamas, or the need for Hamas..........I got an idea...how about Israel quits annexing Palestinian land and Hamas quits lobbing rockets at Israel....deal?

  21. #121
    Spurs love forever RobinsontoDuncan's Avatar
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    Weren't Palestinians lobbing missiles into Israel? Do you post the results of those attacks on YouTube?
    Some Palestinians were launching the equivalent to surface to air missiles into Israelie settlement communities (those being the suburban housing developments the Israeli government builds in the Gaza strip after Palestinian houses and business places get bull dozed)

    Those rockets have killed between 3-4 people over the past two years (according to Israel).

    Do you blame the little kids in that video for those rockets?

    And Aggie, what are you talking about? You don't think Israelis are taught to hate the Palestinians from an early age? In any event, why don't you look at the casualties on both sides of this equation and tell me who has done the most to whom? Just think about it for christ's sake, on one side you have the Israeli soldiers that have our abrahms tanks and our airforce fighters and then you have the Palestinians who have rocks and suicide bombs.... which one is gonna win that fight?

    And no, I don't think my tax dollars should go to Israel's defense budget so they can do this . This ridiculous idea that Israel is going to be wiped off the face of the map is ludicrous, and no one actually believes it's going to happen. In any event, nothing the Israelies are doing right now is going to help their long term security.

    When 1.5 million people are packed into a territory the size of Carlton-Farmers Branch and they are forced to spend 70% of their income on drinkable water (that figure was before the blockade, I have no idea how much it costs now) while Israeli residents in their subdivision settlements waste tons of water on their manicured lawns, you think there isn't going to be any resentment?

    Get a clue, if you were a Palestinian, you would hate the Israelis too. The fact that these people can't immigrate anywhere doesn't make the problem and better either.

  22. #122
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Dude, did you sign up to this forum just to spread pro-palestinian propaganda?
    Balance.

    Even if he did, he'll never make up for the non-stop propagandizing of Israeli officialdom on cable TV right now.

  23. #123
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    This was the UN's screw-up...originally....but we do give Israel billions of dollars in aid...that they use to buy the missiles they are lobbying into Gaza...we give the Palestinians humanitarian millions of dollars in aid too, but not access to the military technology we give Israel access....

  24. #124
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Balance.

    Even if he did, he'll never make up for the non-stop propagandizing of Israeli officialdom on cable TV right now.
    I'm seeing the dark-hand of Cheney at work here....could Iran be next?



  25. #125
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Some Palestinians were launching the equivalent to surface to air missiles into Israelie settlement communities (those being the suburban housing developments the Israeli government builds in the Gaza strip after Palestinian houses and business places get bull dozed)

    Those rockets have killed between 3-4 people over the past two years (according to Israel).

    Do you blame the little kids in that video for those rockets?
    I blame the Palestinians who are willing to put their children at risk just to be able to lob ineffective missiles into Israel for the sole purpose of terror.

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