William Rodriguez Vindicated by Newly Released 9/11 Commission Notes

[Wild Cobra]

The theories that the buildings were brought down by explosives/thermite all have observed phenomena that dirctly contradict what one would expect if explosives or thermite were used to bring down the structures.

My understanding here is the claim of thermite comes from the reside that is consistent with iron oxide (rust) and aluminum burning together. It lacked the fingerprint of thermite however, the added chemicals to accelerate the ignition process.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fire can't melt steel! Fire can't melt steel!

As a mechanical engineer, I can tell you with certainty that steel structures become weakened when they are HEATED.

Depends on what conditions are present. Fire generates heat. If the heat is contained in an insulatory environment then the temperature will continue to rise and at a certain point the temp will get high enough such that it will melt steel. You took thermo and I know its a big part of your FE exam. They use fire from burning coal in a blast furnace bucko. How do you think they form those girders in the first place?

As for the rest that makes complete sense. If the temperature estimates are correct and I by no means have enough information to generate my own model then reducing the material strength of the supports in half would make is so they could not take the load. I still find it interesting that both fell in a near identical manner because as you know from simple dynamics that forces applied above the center of gravity generate torque. Considering that the majority of the fire was on a particular side of the building it stands to reason that side would collapse first causing a force at least partially horizontal to the vertical axis.

Then again it possible that the frame was built just for such a thing to happen. Again I do not have enough information to know that either.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

My understanding here is the claim of thermite comes from the reside that is consistent with iron oxide (rust) and aluminum burning together. It lacked the fingerprint of thermite however, the added chemicals to accelerate the ignition process.

your confusing thermite and thermate. thermite is just powdered aluminum and iron rust. thermate is thermite plus barium and some other .

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You are missing what happens to a moving object when it suddenly stops. All that kinetic energy through gravitation acceleration has to go somewhere. What isn't turned into other forms of energy is turned to heat when it comes to rest. This part of physics has nothing whatsoever to do with the fires. It's kinetic rather than chemical energy.

I am aware of that. Im sure that the force with which the plane hitting distorted the frame. Given the distortion to the frame and the load I know they can detrmine what the load properties of the frame are and from there you can determine what temperature is necessary for the structure to lose stability.

What I really would be interested to see is how they figure that the radiant heat essentially doubled for a period of time. To be honest that seems a bit specious.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

By the by, here is how the official report plays out the initial collapse, essentially the same for both buildings based on my reading of the NIST report. Feel free to read the thing and correct this with a better understanding if you so choose.

Airliner impacts building. Collision injects fire and initial fuel into an office environment filled with other fuel, such as plastic, paper, and furniture, in addition to literally knocking the thin coating of spray on insulation from the structural steel. Simultaineous fires start in multiple floors of the building in wide sections of those floors, in addition to weakening the structure.

In the damaged sections, you have the remaining load bearing structure taking up the extra load from the portions that were destroyed from the collision.

Add to this extra load stress per column (both inner and outer), additional lateral (sideways) stresses are placed from expanding trusses exposed to heat. With the additional load, and weakened by fire, the hottest columns start exhibiting "plasticity" and begin to sag, pulling on the connecting floor, and pulling the face of the building inwards at the floor/wall joints.

Eventually, some part of the buildng gives way, and this instantly places more stress on the remaining structure, itself nearing limits of load/stress capacity. This results in a rather rapid collapse of nearby sections and simple physics do the rest.

Did the structural steel melt? No. You don't have to even get close to melting point to get loss of strength. Medieval blacksmiths didn't have near the ability to melt iron or steel, but could get it hot enough to work with hammer and anvil into swords, armor, horseshoes, and all manner of things.
Steel loses about 20% of its load bearing capacity at 300C, and some portions of the fires were hotter than that.

Actually, medieval blacksmiths did have the tech to melt iron. How do you think they made the metal in the first place? They have been able to melt iron since about the 5th century.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The conspiracy theories have been disproven, pretty conclusively. Observed phenomena are ALL adequately explained by collapse theories other than thermite or explosives.

The theories that the buildings were brought down by explosives/thermite all have observed phenomena that dirctly contradict what one would expect if explosives or thermite were used to bring down the structures.

This, by anybody's reasonable definition, disproves the explosive/thermite theories about the building collapses.

What phenomenon was inconsistent with thermite? I've seen photos of molten metal around an incision at a 45 degree angle. That would be consistent and quite frankly the models you are suggesting do not explain the existent of what is obviously molten metal.

[Galileo]

....gotta give this round to Galileo!

Thanks Nbaden.

But I must say, whipping third rate compe on won't help my Power Ratings that much!

[Blake]

Thanks Nbaden.

But I must say, whipping third rate compe on won't help my Power Ratings that much!

Congratulations!

Now who are the bad guys and why did they want WTC 7 to come down again?

[DarrinS]

You know what's funny is that Loose Change started out as a fictional film, but when Avery found out there were so many dopes, er, customers out there, he decided to make a very bad do entary in the style of Michael Moore.

[RandomGuy]

What phenomenon was inconsistent with thermite? I've seen photos of molten metal around an incision at a 45 degree angle. That would be consistent and quite frankly the models you are suggesting do not explain the existent of what is obviously molten metal.

The photographs you saw were of cuts made by steelworkers during the clean up. Of course they look like deliberate, melted metal at an angle, because that is exactly what they were.

That is part of how 9-11 websites mistakenly present evidence, i.e cherry picking data out of context and misrepresenting what that evidence is/says.

The experts on cutting steel, i.e. the local steelworkers union, NEVER reported seeing ANY beams cut in such a fashion before they started working.

The firefighters on the scene, experts in cleaning up after fires, NEVER reported any remnants of any devices that could be used in such an endeavor. Wiring 110 stories for demolition WOULD have left some evidence of the devices used. None were found, and they looked for that rather specifically.

You therefore cannot consider those photographs as evidence of "thermite".

If you do, then you have to explain why both firefighters and the professional steelworkers who cleaned up the site were in on the conspircacy or not smart/experienced enough to notice things that they should have.

[Galileo]

The photographs you saw were of cuts made by steelworkers during the clean up. Of course they look like deliberate, melted metal at an angle, because that is exactly what they were.

That is part of how 9-11 websites mistakenly present evidence, i.e cherry picking data out of context and misrepresenting what that evidence is/says.

The experts on cutting steel, i.e. the local steelworkers union, NEVER reported seeing ANY beams cut in such a fashion before they started working.

The firefighters on the scene, experts in cleaning up after fires, NEVER reported any remnants of any devices that could be used in such an endeavor.

You therefore cannot consider those photographs as evidence of "thermite".

If you do, then you have to explain why both firefighters and the professional steelworkers who cleaned up the site were in on the conspircacy or not smart/experienced enough to notice things that they should have.

I agree with Random guy on this. Those steel cuts were clearly made during cleanup.

[RandomGuy]

I agree with Random guy on this. Those steel cuts were clearly made during cleanup.

[picks jaw off floor]

The apocolypse is upon us, I have seen the first sign...

[Wild Cobra]

I still find it interesting that both fell in a near identical manner because as you know from simple dynamics that forces applied above the center of gravity generate torque. Considering that the majority of the fire was on a particular side of the building it stands to reason that side would collapse first causing a force at least partially horizontal to the vertical axis.

Then again it possible that the frame was built just for such a thing to happen. Again I do not have enough information to know that either.

This has been thoroughly explained in the past, and they fell like they did because of how they were made. If you study the videos carefully, you see evidence of the inner core falling several seconds before the outside frame starts to come apart. These building had a huge footprint, and gravity pulls objects strait down. The joints between trusses was an insignificant length compared to the footprint to twist or bend the building any significant distance.

your confusing thermite and thermate. thermite is just powdered aluminum and iron rust. thermate is thermite plus barium and some other .

No I'm not. Sulfer residue was found? Is that why the thermate claim? Before it was thermite. The conspiracy theorists keep changing the story. With thermite, magnesium or and/or other elements would have been fused in the residue. With thermate, other elements yet. The residue was not consistant with either.

Buildings have steel and you can bet there was allot of aluminum there too. Enough rust from the burning fire, contact with aluminum, and the force of collapse was plenty to start a thermitic reaction. Not enough to cause any more damage because it would be trace amounts, but enough trace to register for someone looking for signs of thermite or thermate. They just didn't complete the analysis to see the other elements were missing.

[Wild Cobra]

I agree with Random guy on this. Those steel cuts were clearly made during cleanup.

Yep, a shaped charge would have not been as clean. Not only that, any slag would have been blown away. Not sitting like a prime example of torch cut steel.

[Galileo]

The thermite/thermate type cutting material was not applied at the ground floors.

It was applied to the upper 3/4 of the WTC every 15 to 20 floors in the corners, NOT to the core columns. You can see the cutting material on one corner of the South tower at about the 80th floor, in some videos.

The core columns next to the elevator shafts were loaded with military grade explosives every other floor. These explosives blew material outward at right angles from the core.

The core explosives were timed, starting near the point of impact and proceeding down.

Two rows of core columns (out of the 6 rows) remain standing for about 30 seconds after the rest of the building has come down. These are the core columns not next to the elevator shafts.

That's how the WTC came down.

[ChumpDumper]

The thermite/thermate type cutting material was not applied at the ground floors.

It was applied to the upper 3/4 of the WTC every 15 to 20 floors in the corners, NOT to the core columns. You can see the cutting material on one corner of the South tower at about the 80th floor, in some videos.

You can see what appears to be aluminum from the plane or lead from battery backups that became molten at much lower temperatures than is necessary to melt steel.

The core columns next to the elevator shafts were loaded with military grade explosives every other floor. These explosives blew material outward at right angles from the core.

The core explosives were timed, starting near the point of impact and proceeding down.

Two rows of core columns (out of the 6 rows) remain standing for about 30 seconds after the rest of the building has come down. These are the core columns not next to the elevator shafts.

That's how the WTC came down.

If the explosives blew away the core, there would not have been 60+ floors worth of core still standing after the collapse.

Once you get 20 to 30 acres of office building moving, nothing short of the earth itself is going to stop it -- which is exactly what happened.

Twoofers have no concept of scale.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The photographs you saw were of cuts made by steelworkers during the clean up. Of course they look like deliberate, melted metal at an angle, because that is exactly what they were.

That is part of how 9-11 websites mistakenly present evidence, i.e cherry picking data out of context and misrepresenting what that evidence is/says.

The experts on cutting steel, i.e. the local steelworkers union, NEVER reported seeing ANY beams cut in such a fashion before they started working.

The firefighters on the scene, experts in cleaning up after fires, NEVER reported any remnants of any devices that could be used in such an endeavor. Wiring 110 stories for demolition WOULD have left some evidence of the devices used. None were found, and they looked for that rather specifically.

You therefore cannot consider those photographs as evidence of "thermite".

If you do, then you have to explain why both firefighters and the professional steelworkers who cleaned up the site were in on the conspircacy or not smart/experienced enough to notice things that they should have.

Quit being a . I am trying to approach this with an open mind not just accept whatever someone tells me. I have no definitive opinion on the matter and I definitely do not come with some preconceived notion or agenda. TBH I see this as a good thought exercise.

As for the dating on the photos, where is your evidence to the time frame. At this point the entire issue sounds as a he said-she said scenario. Also usually you cut metal at 90 degree angles because its a shorter distance. It really comes down to when those pictures were taken.

And nice strawman. Noone claimed that it was 110 stories or any particular amount.

As for the firefighters I do not know what they were directed to look for and quite frankly neither do you. You are hardly an authority on the matter nor do you have personal knowledge of the situation. Quit acting like you are or you do.

[Galileo]

If the explosives blew away the core, there would not have been 60+ floors worth of core still standing after the collapse.

Once you get 20 to 30 acres of office building moving, nothing short of the earth itself is going to stop it -- which is exactly what happened.

Twoofers have no concept of scale.

The only part of the core that stood for a while was rows 7 and 8 of the core. These rows were not next to the elevator shafts.

Rows 5, 6, 9, and 10 went down right away from the explosives.

The explosives were not set all the way to the bottom of the WTC, but went down as far at least as you can see in most videos.

[ChumpDumper]

The only part of the core that stood for a while was rows 7 and 8 of the core. These rows were not next to the elevator shafts.

Rows 5, 6, 9, and 10 went down right away from the explosives.

The explosives were not set all the way to the bottom of the WTC, but went down as far at least as you can see in most videos.

You still don't understand.

Explosives were not needed once the top of the building started falling.

There were no explosives.

There is no evidence of explosives whatsoever.

20 acres of office building can do it all by itself. Really. Go stand under 20 acres of office building, drop it and try to stop it. Let me know how it works out for you.

[Galileo]

you still don't understand.

Explosives were not needed once the top of the building started falling.

There were no explosives.

There is no evidence of explosives whatsoever.

You don't understand. The top 15 floors of the WTC will not crush the bottom 95 floors to smitherines.

The bottom 95 floors were undamaged by the plane or fire.

When the military of commercial demolitions are done, they do not just put explosives near the top of the building. In fact, they put most near the bottom, like they did with WTC 7.

[DarrinS]

Look, it's evidence of thermite use:

[DarrinS]

Oh, crap, nevermind.

[ChumpDumper]

You don't understand. The top 15 floors of the WTC will not crush the bottom 95 floors to smitherines.

Once it starts moving, it certainly will and did.

The bottom 95 floors were undamaged by the plane or fire.

There were fires all over the building -- but those floors were destroyed by 20-30 acres of building falling on top of it.

When the military of commercial demolitions are done, they do not just put explosives near the top of the building. In fact, they put most near the bottom, like they did with WTC 7.

Except no explosives were used in any of the WTC buildings.

I implore you to test the experiment out yourself. stand under 20 acres of office building and drop it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Look, it's evidence of thermite use:

See now that is compelling counter evidence.

[mouse]

I agree with Random guy on this. Those steel cuts were clearly made during cleanup.

Your a sell out!

You believe anything they tell you. That picture was not even 24 hours old clean up didn't take place till weeks later. Like some fool is going to cut a steel beam at a 45 degree angle with a sharp re bar sticking in his ass?

You all can argue amongst yourselves from now on. I told you many times if your going to Bull me with a lie about this photo you lost all debate creds.

In a way I am Glad Chump and his salad tossing pals think this cut was done during a clean up? it really shows how desperate you all are.