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Those materials are not necessary.
And YOU are the one that won't give up. It's a "Mount Everest because it was there" thing because the fatal flaw of Solar at a power plant level is the massive amount of storage required...soooo....in order to justify solar at that level you have to go to an exotic storage/transfer medium with multiple flaws...I haven't mentioned yet that if your system temperature drops below 400 degrees because of a failure of any kind that you storage medium "freezes" and turns into concrete and turns your power plant into a multi-billion dollar concrete gargoyle....
Those materials are not necessary.
There are a couple of other newer technologies, such as solar trough:
http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/th...y_storage.html
More on thermal solar:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct08/6851
More background on same plant:Largest Solar Thermal Storage Plant to Start Up
By Peter Fairley
First Published October 2008
Spanish solar power station will produce 50 MW in the dark
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...nergy-at-night
more stuff showing other research projects:
http://news.cnet.com/Full-steam-ahea...3-6166113.html
Here is another bit on a company that is also trying it.
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/20...power-in-salt/
I realize you probably still think I am an ass, but if you can overcome your dislike of me to give me a bit more of a professional eye on this stuff and provide some feedback on this at your leisure, I would appreciate it.
hmmm (reads articles)
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct08/6851One problem with running a molten-salt storage system is that the salt could freeze during cold snaps, necessitating an injection of heat that reduces the plant's power output. But Nava says Andasol 1 has some improvements over earlier experimental designs to minimize the need to warm the salt. Andasol 1's valves are fewer in number, and both the valves and the heat exchanger are designed to drain when not in use, eliminating the need to keep them hot. The pumps, which cannot be drained regularly, sit submerged within the tanks instead of outside the tanks, where they would have to be heated separately. Nava estimates that, overall, annual energy losses from the storage system will be just 5 percent.
It would seem that they are finding solutions for this as well.
My impression is that a lot of these challenges can be overcome, with some smart guys/gals working on it.
Not trying to argue here, btw. You are bringing up things that should be addressed for this to be a realistic solution, and I am all about sorting through the bull to get at what will really work. If there really is some unfixable flaw to it, I WANT to know, because I may try to start/join one of these companies at some point, and would hate to latch on to a loser.
No matter how many times you call molten salt "exotic," it doesn't make it true.
Is the comment about system temperature supposed to matter? I worked in a plant where if the steam jacketing failed, the process would plug solid. I worked weekends watching hundreds of feet of pipe get cut out and replaced. Across the street was another plant with the same problem, except the frozen material inside was lethal.
These were not exotic plants making incredibly high-dollar materials. These plants made commodity plastic. These "Mount Everest" problems are being solved by ordinary people everyday.
Now I work in a process that, if it gets much above ambient temperature, will leave a crater a mile across. Is that insurmountable?
So are you lying or are you stupid?
RG, I don't think you are an ass. I don't have time to answer you this afternoon because I really do need to make a run down to the ranch.
I'm not saying I know everything, and there will be billions of dollars spent on active solar "research" in the near future...they may actually find the "perfect" storage medium...
My suggestion to you at a personal level is to spend your energy researching passive solar...it makes a lot more sense from a personal lifestyle level...
And when looking at these "big" systems NEVER trust the "smart guys" that say "thats just a little technical issue that the engineers will "figure out"...
I've put 2 kids through college (and one through law school) and bought a modest ranch fixing that wasn't supposed to break.
That's the problem with a lot of basic/advanced research.
You might have to sink a LOT of money into it before you get your earth shattering idea.
The big disadvantage with waiting on the private sector is that too often the drive to get something readily marketable for short term returns doesn't allow for the really creative, off the wall kinds of stuff that yields intuitive leaps.
Assuming you have some massive solar farm, how much energy does it take to pump all that sodium around and how much heat is lost along the way?
Well .
Take a guy with a financial head, with two cranky engineers...
Spurstalk solar energy company. buwhahahahahahaha!!
One guy who says we can, one guy who says we can't playing devil's advocate, and a guy to tell 'em how much it will cost. An interesting dynamic.
No dowbt.
According to the article:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct08/6851
About 5%
Well .
Take a guy with a financial head, with two cranky engineers...
Spurstalk solar energy company. buwhahahahahahaha!!
One guy who says we can, one guy who says we can't playing devil's advocate, and a guy to tell 'em how much it will cost. An interesting dynamic.
If there's money to be made and it is technically feasible, it will get done.
Apparently not as ing stupid as you are.
No wonder you are worried about global warming.
Passive solar does offer a lot of advantages. Low costs being one.
I have looked into a lot of these type systems for houses, but our transportation energy needs will not be met that way.
We need to find a way to make this stuff work for electricity generation.
I think some of the trough solutions offer the advantage of being scalable, and some of them are really cheap as well.
Need to dig up the Bloomberg article on that.
There's some serious hate-age going on in this thread.
This company seems to think so.
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/20...power-in-salt/
There are also companies looking into solar trough-style things.
From Bloomberg financial news:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=augnu4KmUgio
It's there. I may very well take the leap into one of these companies after I get my CPA, or maybe before. Combine my intense interest in this with some financial know-how.
They get 178,000 MWh with the salt storage vs. 117,000 MWh without. Not bad.
I noticed.
Never seen ES get quite so worked up.
Funny thing is that the two of them would probably like each other in person over a beer.
That's the way guys roll. My favorite drinking group of libertarians and conservatives, with me providing the lone democrat occasionally end the session with a " YOU, YOU'RE WRONG! What time next week?"
I noticed.
Never seen ES get quite so worked up.
Funny thing is that the two of them would probably like each other in person over a beer.
That's the way guys roll. My favorite drinking group of libertarians and conservatives, with me providing the lone democrat occasionally end the session with a " YOU, YOU'RE WRONG! What time next week?"
They're conversation reminds me of these guys.
They want control of our lives, not to actually make the world a better place. Liberalism didn't work out under Carter, so they've come back around with this saving the earth / being green thing.
Same with electrical production, water, you name it. Ever hear of the Pacific DC Intertie?
The Pacific DC Intertie (also called Path 65) is an electric power transmission line that transmits electricity from the Pacific Northwest to the Los Angeles area using high voltage direct current (HVDC). The line capacity is 3,100 megawatts, which is enough to serve two to three million Los Angeles households and is 48.7% of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) electrical system's peak capacity.
Yep, Brings back memories of an episode on "Weeds." The gang leader (U-Turn I think) ends up buying several just for that reason.
I wouldn't say that. They have their time and place. We just cannot use solar as much as people would like. I do like the idea in southern locations to compliment the electricity when people run air conditioners, but I think it has less use in areas like mine.
How efficient is it?
I don't know much about molten salts, but solar power is already rather inefficient. When you start adding storage systems that will have losses, what does that do to the bottom line?
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