Son? Go yourself. No way Olajuwon would put up the same numbers in this much slower league with better D than was seen in the 90s.
Actually, no it's not. Kobe couldn't hold Jordan's jockstrap, Hakeem could hold Tim's.
Listen you stat-quoting idiots, when you compare players across eras (or even in the same era for that matter), you have to adjust for pace and minutes played.
Let's take a look at the top PERs for Duncan and Hakeem:
Hakeem:
27.31 (92-93), 25.98 (94-95), 25.52 (95-96), 25.29 (93-94), 25.17 (88-89), 24.30 (90-91), 24.17 (85-86), 24.14 (89-90), 23.84 (86-87), 23.66 (91-92)
Duncan:
27.06 (03-04), 27.04 (04-05), 27.01 (01-02), 26.93 (02-03), 26.12 (06-07), 24.78 (99-00), 24.35 (07-08), 24.26 (08-09), 23.83 (00-01)
As you can see, Duncan has 5 seasons with a PER over 26, while Hakeem has only 1.
Duncan's PER in the current (08-09) season on a pair of bum knees is better than Hakeem's season PERs for 85-86, 86-87, 89-90, 91-92 and almost the same as 90-91.
Hakeem is an underachiever, period. He happened to play 3-4 great seasons which you wide-eyed kids gobbled up, and are now treating him like some kind of all-time great. You take out those 2 championship years and nobody would have put him in the 50 greatest players.
Duncan beats Hakeem statistically.
Duncan beats Hakeem in rings.
Duncan beats Hakeem in total wins
Duncan beats Hakeem in playoff appearances.
Duncan beats Hakeem in All-NBA selections.
Duncan beats Hakeem in All-Defensive selections.
Duncan beats Hakeem in MVPs.
Duncan beats Hakeem in Finals MVPs.
Duncan beats Hakeem on every parameter that counts.
LOL.. Robinson wasn't a good rebounder averaging 10.6, 10.0, 9.6, 8.6, 8.3, and 7.9 playing with Duncan?
Also, about the rebounding argument, Duncan is better and it isn't close if you adjust it for pace and minutes.
# of seasons with Total rebounding % > 18%
Duncan has 9
Hakeem has 5
Not ... even .... close.
In the 2007-08 season, Amare Stoudemire had a higher PER than Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and Dirk Nowitzki. That's all you need to know about the PER statistic.
Thank you John Hollinger ...
But if you go by PER Robinson is better center than Hakeem or Shaq but we ALL know that is NOT the case when the playoffs hit ...
Duncan has Had the better career no doubt about it ...but Hakeem was better at his best no way duncan could destroy the 2nd best center and the 3rd best center (or power forward) the way he beat out Robinson and Ewing on his way to the le...
Lol stats manipulating.
So for dumbass/insecure Rocket fans and Spur haters, when comparing any 2 players:
- Look at PER for efficiency/dominance (Duncan wins)
- Look at Total Rebounding % for Rebounding (Duncan wins)
- Look at Offensive rating for Offense (Duncan wins)
- Look at Defensive rating for Defense (Hakeem wins)
Hakeem was a statistically better defender, everywhere else Tim beats him handily. Adjust for pace and minutes and Duncan is better overall.
PER is garbage like QB ratings it looks good and good players will do well in it ...but I trust my eyes more than numbers
Jordan dominated Drexler and Miller (2nd and 3rd best players at his position)
Hakeem dominated Kareem an dParish and Robinson and Ewing in diffrent points of his career
Tim's teams have dominated the Nets, cavs Pistons and sons but WHEN has he DESTROYED the next best player at his position in a playoffs?
When did he DOMINATE SHAQ? OR KG he has outplayed them at times ...yes but Duncan was never the hands-down alpha male ...BUT he stayed at ahigh level while his fellow big man have risen and Fallen (Shaq, amare etc.)
That is why Duncan is the best big man SINCE Hakeem and at PF the best I have EVER seen but he is no Hakeem
Whoa whoa whoa ... the Hakeem supporters were the ones who broke out the stats first.
If you leave aside the stats, it's even more one-sided. Talk about Hakeem-led teams missing the playoffs (once) and not even cracking 50 games (7 times) vs Duncan-led teams winning 56 or more every single time, contending every single time and winning 4 rings to boot.
Hakeem had 4 good seasons and a dozen mediocre ones.
Duncan has had 11 excellent seasons.
Even Rocket fan would prefer the success the Spurs have enjoyed in the Duncan era.
You are soo defensive LMAO
I have said He is the best PF and a top 5 big man since 1980 (since i started watching ball)
BUT because Some disagree we are SPur haters? I have MAD respect for TImmy
I'm not my fellow Laker fans it does not bother me that people feel MJ is way better than Kobe by stats rings etc HE IS ...BUt he is the best since MJ just like Duncan is best since Hakeem ...no disrepect it is a compliment to be compared
If it makes you fell better bill russell would vote for TIm here ...
Per 36 minute stats:
Hakeem: 21. 9 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.5 apg, 3.1 bpg, 1.8 spg, .512 FG%, .712 FT%
Duncan: 21.4 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg, 0.8 spg, .507 FG%, .685 FT%,
And that's including Hakeem declining seasons.
You don't have to adjust for pace. Just take the per 36 minute stats. Same amount of time on the court. If you have to manipulate the stats with "adjusted for pace" then you're trying too hard.
You can look at FG% and scoring to see who the better offensive player is, but you didn't because then Hakeem would win out. So you went to Offensive rating. You could straight to rebounding to see which is the better rebounder, but if you did that, it would be pretty much a draw, so you didn't and you went to rebounding PERCENTAGE? Come on.
Stop stats manipulating.
The two players were both great and had similar stats. Hakeem's stats were similar even though he had several declining years in those stats.
You even had the audacity to say earlier that Hakeem was an "underachiever." Right there, you should have stopped. And, I bet whenever Duncan's stats start to slip, you'll claim Duncan is just being an unselfish player by deferring to his teammates which still makes him great.
It's amusing.
Again, what Hakeem did with Robinson and Shaq was only in 1 playoff series apiece, and then too because he had a terrific supporting cast.
Robinson facing double teams while Hakeem scored in single coverage is not a comparable example.
That's like saying Steve Nash outplayed Kobe in 2005 and 2006.
Best argumet you have made on here ...Also I agree Hakeem did underachieve to a certain degree not as bad as Shaq but he sometimes coasted until the playoffs.
But in the playoffs he was a beast just like shaq plus he was clutch like duncan ...
You just need to stop.
Hakeem's first 13 seasons in the league, he was putting up 24 ppg, 12 rpg, 3 bpg and shooting over 51% from the field. Even if you take his four best seasons in that span, the other 9 seasons were right around 21 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 bpg, and over 50% shooting. If you call that mediocre, then most of Duncan's career was mediocre.
So Shaq only had a three-year prime? You're really reaching here.
What's amusing is you not understanding stats, having seen about 2 seasons of Hakeem's play and generalizing based on that.
a) You have to adjust for pace. It's about how much they produce in the same number of possessions, not in the same number of minutes. It's obvious, and you don't have an argument against it.
b) Rebounding % is the % of total available rebounds that the player gathered. At a faster pace, more rebounds will be available and stats will be padded. Again, give me a rational argument against this.
Hakeem played in a faster-paced era. If he played today, his numbers would be down across the board.
Here is where the argument goes awry. The debate is between Hakeem and Duncan as players, not the Hakeem Rockets and the Duncan Spurs. If you want to talk about team success, Duncan wins. No argument. If you talk about which is the better winner, again it's Duncan.
If we talk about individual players, there's plenty of room for debate. I won't blast on somehow who believes Duncan was the better player. But I will argue against it being a slam dunk contest in favor of Duncan hands down. Individually, there's plenty of evidence to support Hakeem as the better player already in this thread. But, you cannot bottom line the debate between two individual players by saying one players' team won more or won more championships when those are team accomplishments.
I believe Tim Duncan is a better all around player than Bill Russell. But, if you argue championships and MVPs, it's no contest. That's not how you analyze a comparison between two individual players.
And you need to up your comprehension. So let me state it in words of one syllable for you:
When you adjust for pace and minutes, except for defensive numbers, Duncan has produced better than Hakeem in every category. Hakeem's numbers apart from his 4 best seasons are indeed lower, and if you add to the fact that his teams were playoff doormats for those years, his overall contribution is indeed mediocre.
Double teams? not needed ...we all know david was NOT clutch ...
Duncan is great his consistency is amazing ...
I remember back in TMAc's short prime some thought he was better than Kobe (ridiculous now, I know) but his 3 best years there is an ARGUMENT that could be made stat wie he was better than Kobe ...who has more rings, MVP's better career numbers etc? KObe!
Or even better Wade if you take this year and his Finals MVP year ...
And I would concede that for those 2 years his best was better than Kobe's ...
But would laker fans rather have 3 les and MVP season and this year of course! In the end who will have the better career and better overall numbers? probaly Kobe ...but I can respect the argument could be made same with Lebron ...
Duncan=Kobe Hakeem=Wade Who do you want longterm?
the former but at their best a case could be made for the latter ...and that is FINE with me ...over time I have learned to respect evryone's game.
His numbers could have been down definitely but he would be even MORE dominant because the lack of big man (quality) is ridiculous ...I love bynum but Hakeem would destroy him i have seen bynum play duncan well this year before he got hurt Hakeem would of embarassed a young Bynum he did the same to a seasoned Robinson and young Shaq (in consecutive seasons)
I would trade anybody that has ever played on this team for another player with Hakeem's skill set who could put up those 12 "mediocre" seasons.
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