Hakeem vs Duncan Part 2

[kingmalaki]

I've gone over this in the other thread, and I don't want to rehash the same things we have been debating about there. I just wanted respond on a few things I have been reading on here:

- Both Horry and Elie say Hakeem was the better player. But who are they to know, since they only played with, and won les with both players. I would say their opinion trumps all of ours but that would just make too much sense.

- Hakeem seems to always win these debates on neutral boards. Here is an example:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43680

- It's silly to say Duncan made Parker or Manu, just like it has always been silly to say MJ made Pippen, etc. Did Duncan make TP quick as ? Did he make him spend countless hours in the gym working on a dependable jumper, so he could finally start to finish games? Did he give Manu the reckless abandon that he came into the league with? The answer is no to all of these questions. Of course, Duncan made their lives easier...but he didn't make them.

- Someone noted that Duncan always checked Shaq in the 4th quarter and that is the furthest thing from the truth, especially when Robinson was here.

- Someone noted the monster stats that Howard is putting up in the league today, with average man defense at best and like zero post moves. The funny thing is that Hakeem was arguably a better athlete than Howard, and he actually had great man defense, a jumper and impeccable footwork. Prior to Amare's injury, it didn't seem like the league could stop him either. Hakeem was basically a bigger version of him.

- Someone said Hakeem wasn't getting doubled in 94 and 95? Huh???? I must admit I always laugh when Spurs fans say we doubled Robinson all the time yet they never doubled Hakeem. Sure.......

- The Rockets supporting cast weren't known as "clutch" players in 94. Cassell's first really big shot was in the 94 Finals (Game 3 I believe). Horry's first game winner was against the Spurs in the 95 WCF's...which was his only basket of the game. Maxwell was a chucker. Elie was a reserve that year that didn't get a lot of burn. Smith was so clutch that we let a rookie Cassell put him on the pine to finish games. , the Houston newspaper labeled them chokers...in typical Houston fashion...in the Phoenix series that year. The team simply wouldn't die in 95 and that's where most of the clutch city stuff is from...but the clutch dude in 94 was Olajuwon, on both sides of the ball.

- PER doesn't take into account defense, or your level of compe ion. I love my Rockets but when Yao is arguably the games best center over the last few years, then you know the pivot position is extremely weak.

- Someone posted a list of some very good PF's. I wouldn't take any of those PF's over Ewing, Robinson or Shaq. I would like to see how those PF's would fare leading some of the talent stricken teams that Ewing and Robinson had to carry. Not to mention, I wouldn't take any of those dudes over Karl Malone or Barkley. Other PF's from that time weren't slouches either, like Kemp, Buck Williams, Horace Grant, Larry Nance, Rodman, Kevin McHale, etc. Actually, the last time I checked like 3 of these dudes are in the argument for best PF ever, right up there with Duncan (not saying there are better....but it's interesting that you are toting a bunch of PF's from today when 3 of the GOAT dudes are from Hakeems time).

[Warlord23]

All right folks, good debate ... I'm out now.

They're both great players with great accomplishments, statistics, awards and success. In that close a race, I'd give it to the winningest guy. But it isn't a slam dunk choice, and you can't go wrong with either at the end of the day.

Apologies if I was rude to anyone. Catch y'all later.

[Many PackYao]

Considering Tim Duncan plays below the rim most of the time with the occasional dunk, I can only imagine how many shots Hakeem would swat back in his face...like this.

[Many PackYao]

As a fan watching Hakeem's supporting cast during the 1st le year was frustrating because Maxwell was an erratic shooting guard version of Rafer Alston. He shot .389 from 2 and .298 from 3 in 93-94 @ 13.6ppg. Robert Horry shot a slightly better 32% from 3pt range @ 9.9ppg. Where is this great supporting cast the Spurs homers severely overrate?Hakeem carried these guys on his back that year. Other than Olajuwon and Thorpe they were so inconsistant, it wasn't funny. Maxwell did make up for it with game-winning shots, but the mainly after shooting 4-12 on most nights. What every fanbase outside of the Rockets' saw and remembers is the supporting cast overachieving and playing out of their minds in the playoffs. That wasn't the case throughout the reg season. Hakeem was carrying their asses to that 1st le.

[Many PackYao]

You know whats amazing about this video was Hakeem left Robinson to jump over Barkelys back to block Duncans fall away.

Damn straight!

[mavs>spurs2]

As a fan watching Hakeem's supporting cast during the 1st le year was frustrating because Maxwell was an erratic shooting guard version of Rafer Alston. He shot .389 from 2 and .298 from 3 in 93-94 @ 13.6ppg. Robert Horry shot a slightly better 32% from 3pt range @ 9.9ppg. Where is this great supporting cast the Spurs homers severely overrate?Hakeem carried these guys on his back that year. Other than Olajuwon and Thorpe they were so inconsistant, it wasn't funny. Maxwell did make up for it with game-winning shots, but the mainly after shooting 4-12 on most nights. What every fanbase outside of the Rockets' saw and remembers is the supporting cast overachieving and playing out of their minds in the playoffs. That wasn't the case throughout the reg season. Hakeem was carrying their asses to that 1st le.

I remember looking up those stats last time we had this argument and I remembered it was bad, but dayum. Hakeem got those chuckers enough open looks that I guess they were barely able to knock down enough to win ball games.

[Caltex2]

Barkely was washed up when he went to Houston. Even he admited that. Hakeem and Sampson would have won multiple les if Sampson had not hurt his back. That was the best twin tower duo in history, even much better than Duncan/Robinson. Even Drexler was at the end of his career when he played with Hakeem.

Eh, he pulled down 33 boards in one game (at Phoenix no less) in his first week after being traded the previous summer. Maybe by the second year, but not the first.

Give me Hakeem, but Duncan is the model of consistency.

[JamStone]

Eh, he pulled down 33 boards in one game (at Phoenix no less) in his first week after being traded the previous summer. Maybe by the second year, but not the first.

Give me Hakeem, but Duncan is the model of consistency.

Barkley never stopped being a relentless rebounder even when injuries and age caught up to him in Phoenix and Houston. But, it did affect him at the offensive end. Before his first season at Houston, Charles Barkley had a career 55.0% field goal percentage up to that point. That first season at Houston, he shot 48.4% from the field, 48.5% his second season in Houston, and 47.8% in his last two seasons with the Rockets.

[Many PackYao]

Guys like Thorpe, Cassell, Elie and Horry were never the problem. The problem was the starting backcourt. Maxwell was too much of chucker with a worse shot-selection than Ron Artest and Alston put together. Smith was a good shooter, but could be shutdown and was too much of a puss to drive the lane. The Rockets during Olajuwon's era never had a point guard of Parker's caliber that could penetrate the defense and score at will. We had Sleepy Floyd for a couple of years, but he played his best ball with the Warriors. If the Rockets had in some way acquired Drexler without giving up Thorpe, then more than likely the Rockets would have stayed compe ive for a while longer than they did.

[Caltex2]

Hitting wide open jumpers because of Hakeem. They aren't even remotely in position to hit clutch jumpers without Hakeem carrying that offense for entire games. Again, the shooting numbers weren't even that impressive. And, I'd have to go back and watch those playoffs, but I'd want to re-visit them to see how often Maxwell and Kenny Smith hit clutch jumpers in that 1994 le run. Actually, I'd like to go back and see all of them because while Horry and Cassell and Elie have reputations of being clutch shooters, I'd really like to see how many each hit during that first le run. Not saying they didn't. I'm sure they hit some. But, legend sometimes skews past realities. Horry has built his clutch shooting reputation even more so with the Lakers and even the Spurs. How clutch was he with the Rockets? It's been a long time that I can't remember and say for sure. Having clutch shooters is important. Having great players that can also help carry the team throughout the game and not just at the end of games might be even more important. Hakeem averaged 28.9 ppg in the 1994 playoffs. The next highest average on the team was Vernon Maxwell at 13.8 ppg.

Horry was just the man. I've watched many games from the le runs shown on ESPN Classic the last couples years and yes, Horry really was pretty clutch. I remember thinking "dang look at Horry hittin all those clutch shots." Down the stretch of 1995 NBA Finals Game 1 and I believe NBA Finals Game 6 (or 7) would be great references for this.

[Many PackYao]

Horry was just the man. I've watched many games from the le runs shown on ESPN Classic the last couples years and yes, Horry really was pretty clutch. I remember thinking "dang look at Horry hittin all those clutch shots." Down the stretch of 1995 NBA Finals Game 1 and I believe NBA Finals Game 6 (or 7) would be great references for this.

Yeah the '95 le run with Rockets is where Horry truly began his clutch rep.I remember him hitting some really big ones against the Spurs and Magic.

[monosylab1k]

I'm not for sure, but I think in NBA Live '95 Hakeem had a 97 rating, while in Live 04 Duncan had his career high of a 98 rating. Let me go back and check, but that should effectively end this debate once and for all.

[Bob Lanier]

Clutch is magical thinking.

[Caltex2]

Hakeem was dominant throughout his career (knocking off the showtime Lakers in only his second season), the only thing that wasn't was the talent around him.......if Ralph doesn't become chronically injured and if his teammates don't let their careers go down the drain because of drug use, this isn't even a debate.

And I'd still love to hear how Duncan is a "better team player" I guess you get that award when you play on "better teams". Go ask the players Hakeem played with, they'll tell you who the "best team player" was. Hakeem never put his self before any of his teammates and I don't know where this "ego" talk came from. Hakeem doesn't even know what a "ego" is. You couldn't ever meet a more humble individual. Some people that are posting in this thread probably never even saw the guy play ball, because some of the stuff they're typing is completely off the wall

Oh "Akeem" was quite the hot head and ego trip before the plane ride to Japan in 1993 and increased faith in Islam created "Hakeem."

[Caltex2]

Another thing to throw in this comparison is injuries. The Rockets didn't start having major injuries in thsi era. As a matter of fact, injuries are probably the reason that as compe ive as they have been, the Rockets have never won 60 games and only came close twice (1994 and '97)

[Blake]

I wanted to see if you would continue to follow your logic, and you did.

Personally, I think Tim Duncan is a better player than Bill Russell. Russell was the better winner in an era that was not nearly as compe ive, but I think Duncan is the better player.

I'm surprised you feel Russell was better.

5 time MVP, 11 time Champ.

Russell gets underappreciated a lot because of the team he played with and the era he played in.

This year, they will start calling the finals MVP trophy the "Bill Russell Finals MVP Award"

so yeah.......Russell>Duncan

[Blake]

Nope, but that's somewhat of a crutch because Duncan simply isn't capable of guarding those type of players all game long, he'd foul out. By sticking him on them in crunch time you're relying on the fact that the ref is reluctant to foul out a hall of famer and he can get away with more.

that's pretty sorry logic.

you stick Duncan on the other team's best player because he IS the best defensive player. Relying on the refs reluctancy to foul him out is stupid.

And as far as Amare, he averaged 40ppg on Duncan the last time he guarded him for an entire series back in 2005. We all see how that went

yeah, Duncan averaged 30ppg in the wins and the Spurs dismissed the Suns in 5 games.

Good job agreeing even though you don't know you are.

[Blake]

Nope, that's only somewhat true. When I look at a player I remember to when they were at their best, not when they were up and coming or over the hill. For several years Hakeem did it better than Duncan or pretty much anyone.

yes, Hakeem did it better than anyone for a couple of years.

Duncan did it better than Hakeem over the course of their careers.

nicely done again.

[Thunder Dan]

yes, Hakeem did it better than anyone for a couple of years.

Duncan did it better than Hakeem over the course of their careers.

nicely done again.

Blake is just picking Duncan because Hakeem is black. Blake, you need to stop being so racist

[Blake]

Hmmm thats funny, especially when Barkley admitted it?!?!? Self ownage

huh? again, Barkley averaged 19 and 15. How many guys in the history of the league have ever averaged 19 and 15 in the same season?

I'm not sure what part of all star you or Barkley don't understand.

you apparently don't undertstand what self ownage means either.

[Blake]

Blake is just picking Duncan because Hakeem is black. Blake, you need to stop being so racist

what kind of cars do Hakeem and Duncan drive, Ku Klux Dan?

you're an idiot.

[Blake]

You ass backwards cuckhold you. You completely misinterpreted my comparison there. Hakeem is Jordan, and Duncan is Kobe in that comparison. But even still, Duncans skill level is like two notches below Hakeem's.

your ass is so backwards that kobe bends you over from the front.

Hakeem is Jordan? Duncan is Kobe?

That might be the worst comparison of the day. Duncan is the one with the 2 MVPs and the 4 les, not the other way around.

[Blake]

Ok Spurs fans that argue this crap look at the 1st le team the ROX had ...
this was even weaker than the '99 Spurs team ...you guys had Sjax, elliott, Robinson, kerr and avery
Now look at what the Rox had for Hakeem's 1st ring Thorpe, Horry Kenny smith and Mario elie with a rookie Cassell ...

Im sorry but Id much rather have that spurs cast ...

the recent winners have Tony (better than kenny or Cassell though Casell was clutch) Manu though not the HOF'er Clyde was ...way more clutch and won more in international and pro careers ...Horry was better in houston but more clutch proven in his SA years plus he saved your 3rd le series ...no way you beat Detroit without him ...

in 99 the Spurs had the old version of Elie and Jaren Jackson playing the 2 guard......not SJax....

Elie and Cassell were very clutch for the rockets in those years.

[Thunder Dan]

what kind of cars do Hakeem and Duncan drive, Ku Klux Dan?

you're an idiot.

Hakeem rides a camel or a compact coupe with bombs strapped to it or a magic carpet

[Bob Lanier]

clutch

More magical thinking.