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  1. #226
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Yes. The lesson from this debacle is that it's likely easier to sucker the American people into picking up the tab for private losses than heretofore assumed.

  2. #227
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Because you think it can't? Because it's hard to imagine America in the poorhouse?

    This is the same kind of logic that allowed Katrina to devastate New Orleans. "Oh, it's not gonna happen. It just won't. It can't." Even as the hurricane hit the city, and meteorologists were pulling their hair out and looking on in horror, I distinctly remember a report early that morning (I was having my car repaired so I was up) about the newscasters saying how the damage has been contained and the city was safe. The news stations, as Jon Stewart pointed out, could have done a lot of honest reporting to make this situation much more apparent. But the news (cnn, msnbc, fox, all of them) seem to only exist to scare the American public about things like violent black men, how whitey will no longer be the majority in 2050, and the latest virus or bird freaking flu that's going around, rather than concentrating on things that actually matter. It reeks of a massive shunt-job, and I really wish we'd see some people holding, "throw CEO x out the window of a 40 story building" parties rather than "tea" parties.

    The reality is that unless something is done to completely curtail the kind of corporate greed that results in 35 to 1 leverages, nothing is going to change. The big business will just find new ways to hose the American consumer. The only alternative I see to it is either finding some way to hold CEOs and corporate execs accountable (and by accountable, I mean if you steal, extort, or launder, you go to JAIL), or by a revolution by the masses, violently if necessary.

    The problem with American government is that American business (predictably) has become smarter, bigger, and able to skirt the confines of the law beyond anything that should be possible. They hire lawyers to find every little loophole in the system. They negotiate in the grey area of the law. Pepsi paid ZERO dollars in taxes in the year 2000. Consider that for a moment.

    They will continue to do this as long as they stand to profit from it financially with little chance of being caught and/or punished.
    the mega wealthy didn't give a about new orleans then or now.

    i agree with almost everything else you said.

  3. #228
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    Yes. The lesson from this debacle is that it's likely easier to sucker the American people into picking up the tab for private losses than heretofore assumed.
    Don't kid yourself. This isn't an American problem. It only happened here because we were the first country that attained this kind of economic power, enough to create a massive group of people that do nothing but push money around and make millions, billions in the process. I guarantee that this would have happened in some form or fashion in any country. Japan had several economic meltdowns in the 90s, the Soviet Union had it's falling out, and the list goes on.

  4. #229
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Yes. The lesson from this debacle is that it's likely easier to sucker the American people into picking up the tab for private losses than heretofore assumed.
    Socialism!

  5. #230
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I guarantee that this would have happened in some form or fashion in any country. Japan had several economic meltdowns in the 90s, the Soviet Union had it's falling out, and the list goes on.
    This is why people are calling us a banana republic. Yes we're the biggest in the world, but we're acting just like one.

    To put a somewhat finer point on it: this is our Weimar moment.

  6. #231
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Wha? That's just good ol' fashioned American free enterprise.

  7. #232
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The reality is that unless something is done to completely curtail the kind of corporate greed that results in 35 to 1 leverages, nothing is going to change.
    Ten principles for a Black Swan-proofworld

    By Nassim Nicholas Taleb
    Published: April 8 2009 03:00 | Last updated: April 8 2009 03:00



    1. What is fragile should break early while it is still small . Nothing should ever become too big to fail. Evolution in economic life helps those with the maximum amount of hidden risks - and hence the most fragile - become the biggest.


    2. No socialisation of losses and privatisation of gains . Whatever may need to be bailed out should be nationalised; whatever does not need a bail-out should be free, small and risk-bearing. We have managed to combine the worst of capitalism and socialism. In France in the 1980s, the socialists took over the banks. In the US in the 2000s, the banks took over the government. This is surreal.


    3. People who were driving a school bus blindfolded (and crashed it) should never be given a new bus . The economics establishment (universities, regulators, central bankers, government officials, various organisations staffed with economists) lost its legitimacy with the failure of the system. It is irresponsible and foolish to put our trust in the ability of such experts to get us out of this mess. Instead, find the smart people whose hands are clean.


    4. Do not let someone making an "incentive" bonus manage a nuclear plant - or your financial risks . Odds are he would cut every corner on safety to show "profits" while claiming to be "conservative". Bonuses do not accommodate the hidden risks of blow-ups. It is the asymmetry of the bonus system that got us here. No incentives without disincentives: capitalism is about rewards and punishments, not just rewards.


    5. Counter-balance complexity with simplicity . Complexity from globalisation and highly networked economic life needs to be countered by simplicity in financial products. The complex economy is already a form of leverage: the leverage of efficiency. Such systems survive thanks to slack and redundancy; adding debt produces wild and dangerous gyrations and leaves no room for error. Capitalism cannot avoid fads and bubbles: equity bubbles (as in 2000) have proved to be mild; debt bubbles are vicious.


    6. Do not give children sticks of dynamite, even if they come with a warning . Complex derivatives need to be banned because nobody understands them and few are rational enough to know it. Citizens must be protected from themselves, from bankers selling them "hedging" products, and from gullible regulators who listen to economic theorists.


    7. Only Ponzi schemes should depend on confidence. Governments should never need to "restore confidence". Cascading rumours are a product of complex systems. Governments cannot stop the rumours. Simply, we need to be in a position to shrug off rumours, be robust in the face of them.


    8. Do not give an addict more drugs if he has withdrawal pains . Using leverage to cure the problems of too much leverage is not homeopathy, it is denial. The debt crisis is not a temporary problem, it is a structural one. We need rehab.


    9. Citizens should not depend on financial assets or fallible "expert" advice for their retirement . Economic life should be definancialised. We should learn not to use markets as storehouses of value: they do not harbour the certainties that normal citizens require.Citizens should experience anxiety about their own businesses (which they control), not their investments (which they do not control).


    10. Make an omelette with the broken eggs . Finally, this crisis cannot be fixed with makeshift repairs, no more than a boat with a rotten hull can be fixed with ad hoc patches. We need to rebuild the hull with new (stronger) materials; we will have to remake the system before it does so itself. Let us move voluntarily into Capitalism 2.0 by helping what needs to be broken break on its own, converting debt into equity, marginalising the economics and business school establishments, shutting down the "Nobel" in economics, banning leveraged buy-outs, putting bankers where they belong, clawing back the bonuses of those who got us here, and teaching people to navigate a world with fewer certainties.


    Then we will see an economic life closer to our biological environment: smaller companies, richer ecology, no leverage. A world in which entrepreneurs, not bankers, take the risks and companies are born and die every day without making the news.


    In other words, a place more resistant to black swans.

  8. #233
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Ten principles for a Black Swan-proofworld

    By Nassim Nicholas Taleb
    Published: April 8 2009 03:00 | Last updated: April 8 2009 03:00
    I have Fooled By Randomness on the shelf. Haven't gotten around to reading it. In it or The Black Swan he is supposed to be insufferable. Maybe he is in both works.

    You might find The Origin of Financial Crises interesting as it relates to what changes in monetary policy might be made.

  9. #234
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    In a 2006 conference Taleb was characterized as anti-free trade for describing defaults that have by now come to pass. I sort of see him as a EF Schumpeter communitarian type, small is beautiful and all that.

  10. #235
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I guess I'm one of the radicals on the watch list because I get a kick out of these signs:




  11. #236
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    Ten principles for a Black Swan-proofworld

    By Nassim Nicholas Taleb
    Published: April 8 2009 03:00 | Last updated: April 8 2009 03:00



    1. What is fragile should break early while it is still small . Nothing should ever become too big to fail. Evolution in economic life helps those with the maximum amount of hidden risks - and hence the most fragile - become the biggest.


    2. No socialisation of losses and privatisation of gains . Whatever may need to be bailed out should be nationalised; whatever does not need a bail-out should be free, small and risk-bearing. We have managed to combine the worst of capitalism and socialism. In France in the 1980s, the socialists took over the banks. In the US in the 2000s, the banks took over the government. This is surreal.


    3. People who were driving a school bus blindfolded (and crashed it) should never be given a new bus . The economics establishment (universities, regulators, central bankers, government officials, various organisations staffed with economists) lost its legitimacy with the failure of the system. It is irresponsible and foolish to put our trust in the ability of such experts to get us out of this mess. Instead, find the smart people whose hands are clean.


    4. Do not let someone making an "incentive" bonus manage a nuclear plant - or your financial risks . Odds are he would cut every corner on safety to show "profits" while claiming to be "conservative". Bonuses do not accommodate the hidden risks of blow-ups. It is the asymmetry of the bonus system that got us here. No incentives without disincentives: capitalism is about rewards and punishments, not just rewards.


    5. Counter-balance complexity with simplicity . Complexity from globalisation and highly networked economic life needs to be countered by simplicity in financial products. The complex economy is already a form of leverage: the leverage of efficiency. Such systems survive thanks to slack and redundancy; adding debt produces wild and dangerous gyrations and leaves no room for error. Capitalism cannot avoid fads and bubbles: equity bubbles (as in 2000) have proved to be mild; debt bubbles are vicious.


    6. Do not give children sticks of dynamite, even if they come with a warning . Complex derivatives need to be banned because nobody understands them and few are rational enough to know it. Citizens must be protected from themselves, from bankers selling them "hedging" products, and from gullible regulators who listen to economic theorists.


    7. Only Ponzi schemes should depend on confidence. Governments should never need to "restore confidence". Cascading rumours are a product of complex systems. Governments cannot stop the rumours. Simply, we need to be in a position to shrug off rumours, be robust in the face of them.


    8. Do not give an addict more drugs if he has withdrawal pains . Using leverage to cure the problems of too much leverage is not homeopathy, it is denial. The debt crisis is not a temporary problem, it is a structural one. We need rehab.


    9. Citizens should not depend on financial assets or fallible "expert" advice for their retirement . Economic life should be definancialised. We should learn not to use markets as storehouses of value: they do not harbour the certainties that normal citizens require.Citizens should experience anxiety about their own businesses (which they control), not their investments (which they do not control).


    10. Make an omelette with the broken eggs . Finally, this crisis cannot be fixed with makeshift repairs, no more than a boat with a rotten hull can be fixed with ad hoc patches. We need to rebuild the hull with new (stronger) materials; we will have to remake the system before it does so itself. Let us move voluntarily into Capitalism 2.0 by helping what needs to be broken break on its own, converting debt into equity, marginalising the economics and business school establishments, shutting down the "Nobel" in economics, banning leveraged buy-outs, putting bankers where they belong, clawing back the bonuses of those who got us here, and teaching people to navigate a world with fewer certainties.


    Then we will see an economic life closer to our biological environment: smaller companies, richer ecology, no leverage. A world in which entrepreneurs, not bankers, take the risks and companies are born and die every day without making the news.


    In other words, a place more resistant to black swans.
    I dream of that day. I fear it will never come.

  12. #237
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    These guys will definately be on the new watch list:




  13. #238
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    Where were you cobra? Looks like a good group.

    It's mindboggeling the goverments Orwellian manipulation of speech to manufacture consent, to contol thought. Islamic terrorists must now be called man made catastrophes.Political oppenents are now called radical extremists...There is however a nasty rumor I'd like to quell.The obama adminsitration does not I repeat does not want to change the term "Christian" to "InfIdel"........until after the mid-term elections.

  14. #239
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    I guess I'm one of the radicals on the watch list because I get a kick out of these signs:
    Yeah, I get a kick out some of these signs too:









    Now that's how a minority party goes about winning back the hearts and minds of the rest of America.

  15. #240
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I guess I'm one of the radicals on the watch list because I get a kick out of these signs:
    They don't have a list for dumbasses who can't read.

  16. #241
    They hate us - but they want to be us!
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    They don't have a list for dumbasses who can't read.
    Yes they do - it's called the voting list for the democrat party!

  17. #242
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    Yes they do - it's called the voting list for the democrat party!
    I have a much higher IQ and SAT score than Bush. Just thought I'd share that.

  18. #243
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    A lot of people have higher IQs and SAT scores than Bush.

  19. #244
    Emperor Duncan>>>>>King James tim_duncan_fan's Avatar
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    The Republicans are idiots. It is just a matter of time before the stupid sheep follow their bigoted leaders and cause another civil war. And look for more uneducated white guys to go on gun rages due to Obama's "socialism."

    What's funny is that these dumbasses don't even know what socialism is. It's just a buzzword that Rush Limbaugh uses to scare the re ed in-breds. Rush Limbaugh's show starts and the next thing you know these people are ready to kill somebody.

    All this nonsense because there is a black dude in the white house...

  20. #245
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Yes they do - it's called the voting list for the democrat party!
    Then how did they know who to vote for and win?

  21. #246
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    All this butt hurt from conservatives. It makes my day!


  22. #247
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    The Republicans are idiots. It is just a matter of time before the stupid sheep follow their bigoted leaders and cause another civil war. And look for more uneducated white guys to go on gun rages due to Obama's "socialism."

    What's funny is that these dumbasses don't even know what socialism is. It's just a buzzword that Rush Limbaugh uses to scare the re ed in-breds. Rush Limbaugh's show starts and the next thing you know these people are ready to kill somebody.

    All this nonsense because there is a black dude in the white house...


    Actually, there is a shift in this country, mostly among younger people, towards socialism. Only 53% of people in a recent Rasmussen poll prefer capitalism.

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...than_socialism

  23. #248
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    Actually, there is a shift in this country, mostly among younger people, towards socialism. Only 53% of people in a recent Rasmussen poll prefer capitalism.

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...than_socialism
    This whole socialist schtick is getting old. This has become a scare tactic by the dead enders..I thought they didn't like scare tactics... They supported sacre tactics to get into the Iraq war and now are criticizing Obama for using them to pass his stimulus package. Conservatives are now using socialism as a scare tactic.... I am still trying to figure out if conservatives are for or against scare tactics..

    Will any of you answer this?

  24. #249
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    The National Debt is Obama's fault. Republicans never ran a defecit.

    Ok . . .

  25. #250
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    This whole socialist schtick is getting old. This has become a scare tactic by the dead enders..I thought they didn't like scare tactics... They supported sacre tactics to get into the Iraq war and now are criticizing Obama for using them to pass his stimulus package. Conservatives are now using socialism as a scare tactic.... I am still trying to figure out if conservatives are for or against scare tactics..

    Will any of you answer this?


    The govt is taking over large portions of the financial sector and this admin wants to regulate our energy use and create a system of socialized medicine. Is it really that far-fetched?

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