Matt Barnes to Orlando

[Epic Fail]

Vince Carter is an upgrade to Hedo in every aspect of basketball. Moving Pietrus into the starting lineup offsets the loss of Lee along with Andersen and Barnes acquisitions.

howdy

[picc84]

No he isn't. you must be one of those fans that let himself get caught up with flashyness instead of effectivity. I bet you also think that T-Mac is better than Manu.

You bet wrong. Unless Tmac is healthy. But then Manu is never healthy nowadays either. Both 100% healthy I take McGrady over Manu. Things as is I take Manu. Thats fair to anyone but a homer, even if you disagree.

But I digress. What does Hedo do better than Carter? Carters a better scorer, playmaker, defender, more athletic. Even now, out of his prime. He shoots a better percentage, shoots a better percentage from 3, shoots better at the line, averaged as many assists despite playing with much worse teammates. What exactly makes Hedo equal to or better than VC?

[JamStone]

VC is better than Hedo and it has nothing to do with flashiness or glitz. People hate on Vince because he's never really lived up to his talents. That doesn't mean Hedo's better. Vince is better than Hedo at just about everything. Hedo is a slightly better shooter but negligibly so. And he might have an edge at rebounding because of his height, length, and the fact he's played down low more. But Vince is still better, a superior scorer, better (and underrated) playmaker, better bball IQ, better athlete, better defender, and has done it as the clear #1 guy on teams. Even when Hedo has had good seasons, he's not been the main option, sometimes the third or fourth option. I think it's pretty foolish to think Hedo is better just because Vince hasn't lived up to expectations.

[DAF86]

You bet wrong. Unless Tmac is healthy. But then Manu is never healthy nowadays either. Both 100% healthy I take McGrady over Manu. Things as is I take Manu. Thats fair to anyone but a homer, even if you disagree.

But I digress. What does Hedo do better than Carter? Carters a better scorer, playmaker, defender, more athletic. Even now, out of his prime. He shoots a better percentage, shoots a better percentage from 3, shoots better at the line, averaged as many assists despite playing with much worse teammates. What exactly makes Hedo equal to or better than VC?

Turkoglu is better at making right decisions and making his teammates better. Carter is a better shooter, jumps higher, is more athletic, etc. but he doesn't play the game the way it's supossed to be played, he will take a 20 foot contested jumper instead of passing the ball to a teammate, he will drible the ball a little bit more than recomended instead of getting rid of the ball at the right time, etc. and that kind of things (that don't seem like a big deal for the casual fan) are the things that end up hurting a team in the long run. Orlando will not be better than the last season and the big reason for this will be the Carter for Turkoglu change, just wait and see.

[all_heart]

You bet wrong. Unless Tmac is healthy. But then Manu is never healthy nowadays either. Both 100% healthy I take McGrady over Manu. Things as is I take Manu. Thats fair to anyone but a homer, even if you disagree.

But I digress. What does Hedo do better than Carter? Carters a better scorer, playmaker, defender, more athletic. Even now, out of his prime. He shoots a better percentage, shoots a better percentage from 3, shoots better at the line, averaged as many assists despite playing with much worse teammates. What exactly makes Hedo equal to or better than VC?

I like Manu's hustle better than T-Mac, the kind of things that don't show in the stat sheet.
T-Mac may get red hot when he's on but then again he takes a lot of shots.

Hedo's at ude is better than VC, but :wgaf: anyway? The chances of them making it back to the Finals and facing my Spurs or your Lakers are slim anyway.

Personally I think both Denver and Orlando will fade this season. Certain teams that do well in the PO will falter the next. It happens every year. This year it's those two teams and probably the Rockets.

[Culburn369]

McGrady is a loser.

Manu is a winner.

---They each wear their attendant cloak in plain sight.

[JamStone]

Turkoglu is better at making right decisions and making his teammates better. Carter is a better shooter, jumps higher, is more athletic, etc. but he doesn't play the game the way it's supossed to be played, he will take a 20 foot contested jumper instead of passing the ball to a teammate, he will drible the ball a little bit more than recomended instead of getting rid of the ball at the right time, etc. and that kind of things (that don't seem like a big deal for the casual fan) are the things that end up hurting a team in the long run. Orlando will not be better than the last season and the big reason for this will be the Carter for Turkoglu change, just wait and see.

Do you honestly believe that?

We're talking about the same Hedo that shoots fade-away three-pointers for a game winner with the score tied and with 10 seconds left in the game to give the opposing team the last shot. How many times did we see SVG have heart attacks on the sidelines over Hedo's decision making?

And people really don't watch enough Vince if they don't know how much of a willing passer he really is. He's actually one of the better playmakers and passer in the league at the 2 guard position. A lot of the misperception of him is a result of Lawrence Frank's coaching late in games. He'd just draw up an ISO for Vince and say wing it. But Vince is a very good and very willing passer.

[all_heart]

Do you honestly believe that?

We're talking about the same Hedo that shoots fade-away three-pointers for a game winner with the score tied and with 10 seconds left in the game to give the opposing team the last shot. How many times did we see SVG have heart attacks on the sidelines over Hedo's decision making?

And people really don't watch enough Vince if they don't know how much of a willing passer he really is. He's actually one of the better playmakers and passer in the league at the 2 guard position. A lot of the misperception of him is a result of Lawrence Frank's coaching late in games. He'd just draw up an ISO for Vince and say wing it. But Vince is a very good and very willing passer.

You do have a couple good points about Hedo, and if we ever see VC deep into the PO we can see what he's made of.. or at least what he has left.

[hater]

Hedo >>> VC in the playoffs. Hedo 10x more clutch than VC. noone can deny this.

[picc84]

Turkoglu is better at making right decisions and making his teammates better.

From what i've seen, no. Turkoglu takes just as many bad shots, maybe more. He averages more turnovers as well. And he certainly doesn't make teammates better than Carter does. Dont know how you could have concluded that.

Carter is a better shooter, jumps higher, is more athletic, etc. but he doesn't play the game the way it's supossed to be played, he will take a 20 foot contested jumper instead of passing the ball to a teammate

Turk does that all the time. Carter does too but he's a better shooter than Hedo so he converts them more. Kind of in the way Kobe takes horrible shots a lot but a bad shot from Kobe has a higher chance of going in than a bad shot from Hedo. Same with Vince.

he will drible the ball a little bit more than recomended instead of getting rid of the ball at the right time

So does Turk. Thats part of why he averages more TO's than Carter.

etc. and that kind of things (that don't seem like a big deal for the casual fan) are the things that end up hurting a team in the long run. Orlando will not be better than the last season and the big reason for this will be the Carter for Turkoglu change, just wait and see.

I think you're wrong, but i'm sure both of us are excited for the upcoming season to find out. Vince's bball IQ is underrated and he's still better at 90% of basketball aspects than Hedo. Orlando fans are in for a nice surprise and the rest of us are in for a bad one.

[picc84]

I like Manu's hustle better than T-Mac, the kind of things that don't show in the stat sheet.

I agree.

T-Mac may get red hot when he's on but then again he takes a lot of shots.

True. But when healthy, he's also better at the other basketball skills than Manu. Playmaking, defense, rebounding. In addition to scoring. He's just a better player than Manu is, even accounting for Manu's intangibles that McGrady doesn't have.

Saying that, I take Manu without hesitation considering Tmac will likely never be more than a s of his former self.

Hedo's at ude is better than VC, but :wgaf: anyway? The chances of them making it back to the Finals and facing my Spurs or your Lakers are slim anyway.

That depends. I think they will beat Cleveland again but will lose to Boston. It depends how the seedings end up at the end of the season.

Personally I think both Denver and Orlando will fade this season. Certain teams that do well in the PO will falter the next. It happens every year. This year it's those two teams and probably the Rockets.

Denvers been left behind a bit by standing pat. Orlando, I strongly disagree with you. Getting Nelson back for the full season at full health along with Vince Carter in place of Turkoglu makes them as good as anyone. Remember they beat Cleveland without Nelson.

[DAF86]

Do you honestly believe that?

We're talking about the same Hedo that shoots fade-away three-pointers for a game winner with the score tied and with 10 seconds left in the game to give the opposing team the last shot. How many times did we see SVG have heart attacks on the sidelines over Hedo's decision making?

You have to separate crunch time from the rest of the game. Most guys take awful shots at the end of games 'cause usually the plays called are all one on one, besides you have the "nervousness" and the "time" factor to consider. I'm not a big fan of Hedo's fadeaways at the end of games but he has made a reputation of beign a clutch player.

And people really don't watch enough Vince if they don't know how much of a willing passer he really is. He's actually one of the better playmakers and passer in the league at the 2 guard position. A lot of the misperception of him is a result of Lawrence Frank's coaching late in games. He'd just draw up an ISO for Vince and say wing it. But Vince is a very good and very willing passer.

I know he's a good passer (so is Turkoglu) the thing is that for every great pass or basket he makes there's a lazy/selfish 20 foot fade-away. To be effective he needs to use a lot of possesions.

[JamStone]

Hedo has had his share of clutch shots and big games in the playoffs, more than Vince because Hedo has been on more playoff teams. Remember once again that Hedo on all of those teams was at best the third or fourth option, rarely if ever being double teamed or collapsed on. People are disregarding how wildly inconsistent Hedo is even in the playoffs and just remember his big shots. How about the first round of the playoffs against Philly where Hedo shot 7-for-30 from the field in the first three games, two of which were at Orlando. How about game 6 against Boston again in Orlando where he shot 3-for-13 for 7 points? Again in game 7 against Cleveland when he shot 3-for-12, but was bailed out by his teammates. He would choke in finals as well. People ignore those performances and forsake them for a memorable clutch shot or two.

And again that's as the third option on the team. Vince has always been the no. 1 guy on offense for his teams and thus the ultimate fall guy. It's not just in the clutch, Vince throughout his career has been a better passer and playmaker than Hedo, at any point during the game. Look at his playoff numbers as the no. 1 guy. Even in his last post season (06-07) he put up 22 ppg, 7 rpg, and 5 apg. As the go to guy facing double teams and collapsing defenses.

It's really a shame some of you think Hedo is a better player.

[all_heart]

I agree.



True. But when healthy, he's also better at the other basketball skills than Manu. Playmaking, defense, rebounding. In addition to scoring. He's just a better player than Manu is, even accounting for Manu's intangibles that McGrady doesn't have.

Saying that, I take Manu without hesitation considering Tmac will likely never be more than a s of his former self.


That depends. I think they will beat Cleveland again but will lose to Boston. It depends how the seedings end up at the end of the season.



Denvers been left behind a bit by standing pat. Orlando, I strongly disagree with you. Getting Nelson back for the full season at full health along with Vince Carter in place of Turkoglu makes them as good as anyone. Remember they beat Cleveland without Nelson.

--No way Manu is a much better playmaker and defender than T-Mac. I've seen T-Mac give up on plays and not bother getting back on D.
They are good because their coach is good, he's driving them to succeed. Howard is good but he's just along for the good times NBA ride, SVG is making him work harder than he normally would. Last year Orlando had more parts of the puzzle than Cleveland, that's why they won. If Orlando was that good, they wouldn't have folded against the Lakers. I really don't think any team is "scared" of Orlando, VC or not. They lost Lee, he was a solid contributer, who's going to replace him? VC could be a nice suprise for them this year, who knows, but that definetely remains to be seen.

[picc84]

--No way Manu is a much better playmaker and defender than T-Mac. I've seen T-Mac give up on plays and not bother getting back on D.

Remember, i'm saying when both are healthy. Gimpy tmac this past year couldnt defend JJ Red . Even healthy he takes plays off but his max defensive effort is superior to Ginobili's.

Manu is just not a better playmaker/passer in any sense of the word. That shouldnt even be a question.

They are good because their coach is good, he's driving them to succeed. Howard is good but he's just along for the good times NBA ride, SVG is making him work harder than he normally would. Last year Orlando had more parts of the puzzle than Cleveland, that's why they won. If Orlando was that good, they wouldn't have folded against the Lakers. I really don't think any team is "scared" of Orlando, VC or not. They lost Lee, he was a solid contributer, who's going to replace him? VC could be a nice suprise for them this year, who knows, but that definetely remains to be seen.

Well, we'll see. Honestly I hope you're right because with the pieces they have now, i'm concerned.

[picc84]

I know he's a good passer (so is Turkoglu) the thing is that for every great pass or basket he makes there's a lazy/selfish 20 foot fade-away. To be effective he needs to use a lot of possesions.

I disagree. He only takes around 16 shots per game, 3 more shots a game than Hedo, but scores more and shoots at a higher %. He's going to have an easier time getting to the rim now with defensive attention focused on Howard, Lewis, and Nelson as well.

[DAF86]

Hedo has had his share of clutch shots and big games in the playoffs, more than Vince because Hedo has been on more playoff teams. Remember once again that Hedo on all of those teams was at best the third or fourth option, rarely if ever being double teamed or collapsed on. People are disregarding how wildly inconsistent Hedo is even in the playoffs and just remember his big shots. How about the first round of the playoffs against Philly where Hedo shot 7-for-30 from the field in the first three games, two of which were at Orlando. How about game 6 against Boston again in Orlando where he shot 3-for-13 for 7 points? Again in game 7 against Cleveland when he shot 3-for-12, but was bailed out by his teammates. He would choke in finals as well. People ignore those performances and forsake them for a memorable clutch shot or two.

And again that's as the third option on the team. Vince has always been the no. 1 guy on offense for his teams and thus the ultimate fall guy. It's not just in the clutch, Vince throughout his career has been a better passer and playmaker than Hedo, at any point during the game. Look at his playoff numbers as the no. 1 guy. Even in his last post season (06-07) he put up 22 ppg, 7 rpg, and 5 apg. As the go to guy facing double teams and collapsing defenses.

It's really a shame some of you think Hedo is a better player.

Just for the record I'm not saying that Turkoglu is a better player than Carter I'm saying that the Turk is a better fit for Orlando.
I agree that Turkoglu is a very inconsistent player but even when his shot isn't falling he still plays the right way, makes the pass when he has to and shoots when he's open, he doesn't force the issue (unless is crunch time) Carter on the other hand you know that no matter how bad he's shooting he will still put up 15/18 shots.

[DAF86]

I disagree. He only takes around 16 shots per game, 3 more shots a game than Hedo, but scores more and shoots at a higher %. He's going to have an easier time getting to the rim now with defensive attention focused on Howard, Lewis, and Nelson as well.

Carter has a career average of around 20 shots per game.

[DAF86]

Manu is just not a better playmaker/passer in any sense of the word. That shouldnt even be a question.

GTFO have you seen Manu play?

[DAF86]

This last video watch it form the 0:27 mark to the 1:23 mark.

[JamStone]

It's interesting to read different opinions of players.

I've never really considered Hedo a great playmaker or one who made teammates better. He has nice, versatile skills and can handle the ball and pass. But he's not some great playmaker imo. When he defers during stretches of games, it's more about him drifting or coasting. He's not really setting up teammates. He's more just being non-existent. And he's not known as a player who makes the right play or plays the right way, crunchtime or not. He's a good player but some of you are hyping him way too much in order to blast on VC.

As for Vince, he has often taken a lot of shots because that's what his teams have required from him. He's always been a willing passer. In his four and a half years in New Jersey, he averaged just under5 assists a game, despite playing with a PG who did most of the play making and averaged 8-10 assists himself.

I think Vince is a better fit in Orlando actually because he's a bonafide go-to scorer who will force defenses to focus attention on him and won't "always" settle for jumpers. This will be the most talent he's played with in his career. Vince isn't like AI. He can play without dominating the ball and still be effective.

[picc84]

Carter has a career average of around 20 shots per game.

For a player of Vince's caliber, thats not that many. At all. In addition, the more relevant stat is right now, or last season. When he took 16 shots a game on a higher % than Turkoglu. Thats not a volume shooter by any stretch.

[picc84]

GTFO have you seen Manu play?

Of course. The spurs are my second favorite team, I watch them all the time.

Have you seen McGrady play? Even this year when he was almost paraplegic he was averaging 1.5 more assists than Ginobili. In 07 and 08 he averaged 5.9 ad 6.5 assists. He is unequivocally a better passer and playmaker than Manu. Thats one thing that should never be in contention.

[rjv]

skill wise, a healthy mcgrady is better than manu but IQ and clutch wise he is not on manu's level. i would have to take a healthy manu over a healthy t-mac.

[picc84]

This last video watch it form the 0:27 mark to the 1:23 mark.

There are probably similar videos for every shooting guard in the league.

I'm not saying Manu is a BAD playmaker. He's just not as good as Tmac. Youtube videos dont disprove that.