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Thought so. I rest my case.
An intentional omission or just an oversight?
at mogrovejo: Common decency is allowing me to do whatever I feel like and not take any responsibility for my actions!
Very fashionable thinking, very politically correct these days. Rude child.
Thought so. I rest my case.
An intentional omission or just an oversight?
So, Deng isn't an Englishman?
It's on Deng to provide a reasonable explanation, not on me. That's why I've been asking people to provide explanations on why X word is derogatory. Saying "I just feel it's derogatory and therefore you shouldn't use it and if you do you're a racist unable to act decently" isn't a reasonable explanation. It's just the typical discourse of PC fascistic weirdos who want to insult other people and look more sophisticated than the others. This thread is very emblematic of that.
He is in fact an Englishman; however, that's not congruent with the original line of questioning:
You did quite explicitly state that you would.
Admittedly, this is quite an extreme example, but the point is no less valid.
Green - I'd be careful here. Given your position some might argue this statement describes you quite well. Your continued agitation of Deng in this case would do nothing to help further your argument.
Red - Who decides this exactly? You? Since it's only you and Deng, I'm led to believe that you would necessarily don the black robes, fetch a gavel and rule on the spot. Where's Deng's robe and gavel though?
Deny, deny, deny personal responsibility and dignity. Typically discourse of the modern politics. Very PC.
What do you mean by continuing agitation of Deng? I wasn't the one coming up with Deng.
Who decides what? Look, [assuming you're American] if now you decide that you find being called an American offensive and that "American" is a derogatory word and that people using it are either ignorant or are trying to belittle you, that's you prerogative.
However, you'd need to present arguments to convince me that American is a derogatory word that I should stop using, at least in your presence. If you don't,
What you have to do is to present reasonable arguments on why would be derogatory to say that Deng is an Englishman - the fact you are unable to do it is very telling. Englishman is a perfectly fine word.
Controlling one's over-sensitiveness and egolatry is also part of acting with common decency, don't you agree?
Red- In case you missed it, I was presenting a hypothetical case. It's not my argument to make as I agree that "Englishman" is quite reasonable. So is the term "chinaman", IN MY VIEW. What you don't get is that once you say something, your perception of the message no longer matters, it's on the receiver at that point. If they choose act in a fashion that we deem irrational, then so be it. What I do disagree with is the notion that it's ok, in your view to continue to use a term you know to be perceived as derogatory to whomever you happen to be interacting with. Is it really so hard for you to simply walk away or respect a persons wishes while interacting with them?
Green- I'd agree, and in fact there are many instances where people bite their tongue. My issue is with you imposing this standard on others while not holding yourself to the same. That would be a double standard good sir, and I simply cannot reconcile or compute such nonsense.
This is something I agree with wholeheartedly.
And, it's something that I'm trying to get across as well.
Agree or disagree that it's derogatory, but why not respect the opinion that it's derogatory to some?
Jamstone, it's amazing you're still unable to understand the point. Nobody is saying that Chinamen weren't victims of racism (or guilty of it, by that matter).
Some poster made a very good analogy. You can find people today saying "Mexicans must go" or "All Mexicans are savage". Does this makes "Mexican" a racial slur? Of course not. I can't explain it better than this.
What was the point of presenting the hypothetical case if now you're saying it's invalid?
Don't you understand the dangers of that theory? Language and vocabulary are precious common heritages, anyone who wants to arbitrarly deem certain words as proper or not, acceptable or derogatory, shall not be tolerated - even if they do it with the best intentions. I'd recommend Prof. Magda Stroinska works or, at the very least, George Orwell's books.
What exactly am I trying to impose on others? Can you be more specific?
So, is Mexican a racial slur as well? People use "mexican" to refer to other people of hispanic origins as well, they use it in hateful fashion, etc.
Why isn't Mexican a racial slur?
i dare someone to call me an "american man"
ill get really offended and wish i could do something about it!
"Mexican" is the proper term to call a person from Mexico.
"Chinese" is the proper term to call a person from China.
"Chinaman" is not a proper term. It's a made-up word. If when there was racist things happening to the Chinese but the term "chinaman" was not made up, the Chinese wouldn't be upset at the term "Chinese." But because a made-up, improper term exists, that improper term associates with the racism against the Chinese.
But, what other country in American vocabulary have been coined differently from the proper term? "Englandman," "Franceman," "Indiaman," "Iraqman," "Thailandman," "Koreaman?"
None other. The fact that it is really the only case where it was improperly coined indicates the notion that it was made up to degrade, to be an insulting term. Why is it "chinaman" and not "Chinese man?" Why?
If the plight of racism against Mexicans also came with some slang to call them that isn't necessarily offensive but actually has a definitional origin in "Mexico," say something like "Mexis," I'd understand if they found that term offensive.
"Chinaman" is one word. It's not two words. And, it's not really all that accurate. China is a noun, not an adjective that can describe a man, woman, or person. The connecting of it to make it one word, "chinaman" is exactly the same thing as connecting "wet" and "back" in that it's a made-up word.
Last edited by JamStone; 11-06-2009 at 07:31 PM.
Except that wouldn't be congruent to "chinaman."
"Americaman" would be and in and of itself it's no big deal, but its use accompanied blatant racism against people from America, you could understand it eventually considered a derogatory term.
So you're saying it's a good thing to be an american man, not a big deal at all, but being a man from china is somehow shameful?
who cares? can the chinaman play ball? no? well him.
Didn't say that at all.
How did you interpret what I said as suggesting that?
Chinaman is a made-up word only in the sense that every word is made up. It's as made up as Mexican or Spaniard.
Chinaman is the literal translation of the Chinese word for a person from China: 中國人.
It could be found in virtually every dictionary to describe a native from China. It was the most used word, in official do ents or in the daily routine, to describe a native from China. You can find it in Robert Louis Stevenson or Joseph Conrad books, for example. It's still used with no pejorative connotations outside the US.
The idea that "Chinaman" was made up with the intent to be offensive to people from China is a pure LIE. I guess this settles the discussion.
If you feel it's okay to be an "american man" but not okay to be a "china man," then you're the racist
When you translate from another language, you translate to what is proper in the language you're translating it to.
In Tagalog (Filipino), the term "ako ito" literally means "I this."
When you translate "ako ito," you don't translate it to "I this."
You translate it to "It's me."
The Chinese script that would be literally translated to "person from China" should be translated to "Chinese man" in English because you translate it to be proper in English, not how it "literally" is in Chinese.
"Chinaman" is a made up word in English because that's not how you would describe a person from China IN ENGLISH.
I don't feel that way.
I'm just ing with you because I "feel" this thread is 8 pages of nonsense. Political correctness and everyone walking on eggs s so not to "offend" anyone is a major pet peeve of mine. China man, Chinese, Gook, it's all the same to me I don't give a
I know you were just antagonizing. But, you're catching me in the mode of seriousness while I'm arguing my points.
I actually don't take offense to the term. My point for a while now is that if someone finds offense with it, just respect that.
France man is not inherently offensive. England man is not inherently offensive.
Therefore, China man is not inherently offensive.
Only when you bring in a 19th Century history lesson does "China man" suddenly become offensive.
I could tell that you were serious, that's why I thought about baiting you into a meltdown for a second, but I decided against it. You're one of the best posters on the site most of the time, I got more respect for you than most
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