How to fix our public schools?

[EVAY]

I agree that we should pay them more. I think there should be a better way of giving raises besides seniority. There has to be a way to give raises to good teachers. I don't mean going by taks, because they'll just teach them to pass a test all year like they did to my niece and nephew.
Teachers should not have to have all these years of school and then take a low wage job. I think they have free college if you promise to teach for a certain amount of years in NM, Im not sure about Texas.

Definitely, tenure should be a thing of the past, and seniority-based raises incent the wrong thing.

You mentioned (or somebody did) the gender-specific programs. They are most useful for middle and high school grades, I think. They do actually improve focus, simply because they remove a source of distraction for that age group, particularly, i.e., adolescent hormone-driven antics that make it harder for those age groups to focus on their intellect. The down side of that is the kids grow up not learning how to treat members of the opposite sex in a setting othr than their homes. So, it delays some of the social maturation process. This gets back to my earlier point about us wanting our schools to do so many things that should be done in the home, i.e., soical training, manners, etc., etc.

The truth is, I don't think public education can accomplish much more than skill transfer, and to the extent that we ask it to simultaneously provide health care ( vaccinations, etc.), social development, culture transfer, etc., etc., I think we dilute the primary mission and the ancillary functions as well.

[EVAY]

What we really need in conjunction with any public school reform is parent-training as a requirement for child-birth medical care. I know it sounds socialistic. It probably IS socialistic. But until we break the cycle we have in place right now, I don't see accomplishing one without the other.

God, I read what I just wrote and the libertarian side of me recoils. I just don't know how to instill responsiblity in parents, who have a major role in their childrens' education, without forcing it in this day and age.

[Winehole23]

The truth is, I don't think public education can accomplish much more than skill transfer, and to the extent that we ask it to simultaneously provide health care ( vaccinations, etc.), social development, culture transfer, etc., etc., I think we dilute the primary mission and the ancillary functions as well.

I agree. The in loco parentis thing went too far; but if responsibility for social development and culture transfer shifted back significantly to parents, a lot of them wouldn't be up to it. I'm not sure there's any way to fix that.

[jack sommerset]

That's Jacks 'ultimate solution' to everything...

You really are a ing idiot

I bet if noone gets pregnant before they are 19, more than 40% of the dropouts we have now would not have dropped out. Maybe even higher.

Alot of Obama dems ask questions but when they get answers they go ing nuts and say stupid like 'birth control is Jacks ultimate solution'. Cynical dumb s is what you are. You just want to ,feel sorry for yourselves and blame other people who don't have this ty at ude.

[TeyshaBlue]

I agree that we should pay them more. I think there should be a better way of giving raises besides seniority. There has to be a way to give raises to good teachers. I don't mean going by taks, because they'll just teach them to pass a test all year like they did to my niece and nephew.
Teachers should not have to have all these years of school and then take a low wage job. I think they have free college if you promise to teach for a certain amount of years in NM, Im not sure about Texas.

I'm currently making 2.5 times my last teaching salary with a waaaay easier job. When I retired from teaching, I took a full commission sales job in a real pressure cooker of a company. The sales reps would look at me and ask why the pressure never seemed to get to me. I would simply say, "Pressure? This is a friggin vacation compared to my last teaching gig."

[spursncowboys]

You mentioned (or somebody did) the gender-specific programs. They are most useful for middle and high school grades, I think. They do actually improve focus, simply because they remove a source of distraction for that age group, particularly, i.e., adolescent hormone-driven antics that make it harder for those age groups to focus on their intellect. The down side of that is the kids grow up not learning how to treat members of the opposite sex in a setting othr than their homes. So, it delays some of the social maturation process. This gets back to my earlier point about us wanting our schools to do so many things that should be done in the home, i.e., soical training, manners, etc., etc.

I think making girls/ boys classes is a great idea. Studies show time and again that girls advance in that situation. Also, remembering my school time and hearing the way kids talk to girls now walking down the street there is a discourse of how opposite sexes should treat each other. Going a little farther than the normal adolescence type but just crude towards each other. There has to be a good way of focusing on education and social development. Maybe science, math and language can be same sex classes.

[TeyshaBlue]

I agree. The in loco parentis thing went too far; but if responsibility for social development and culture transfer shifted back significantly to parents, a lot of them wouldn't be up to it. I'm not sure there's any way to fix that.

You cannot fix irresponsibility, I'm afraid. You can, however, anticipate it's results and try to construct a strategy that allows for this loss without a negative impact to the schools in general...ie, alternative campuses.

[rjv]

i attended an all boys private school. i can tell you that we were as rowdy and unfocused a group as any other group of adolescent males.

[Winehole23]

What we really need in conjunction with any public school reform is parent-training as a requirement for child-birth medical care. I know it sounds socialistic. It probably IS socialistic. But until we break the cycle we have in place right now, I don't see accomplishing one without the other.

This is a theraputic/bureaucratic fix, but it is far less extreme and far more measured than the forced birth control and state credentialling of parents (to have children) proposed by some of this board's "rugged individualists."

God, I read what I just wrote and the libertarian side of me recoils. I just don't know how to instill responsiblity in parents, who have a major role in their childrens' education, without forcing it in this day and age.

Well then, you have a conscience. Cheers to that.

Jack still seems to think adolescents should be forced to use BC. I hope EM was just kidding about his own Chinese style solution to bad parenting -- letting the state regulate childbirth is repugnant to liberty and just a bad idea.

[rjv]

I hope EM was just kidding about his own Chinese style solution to bad parenting -- letting the state regulate childbirth is repugnant to liberty and just a bad idea.

yeah, i was wondering if jack ever caugh the irony of his being so in line with the chinese.

[spursncowboys]

you cannot fix irresponsibility, i'm afraid. You can, however, anticipate it's results and try to construct a strategy that allows for this loss without a negative impact to the schools in general...ie, alternative campuses.

+1

[desflood]

We need to take it out of the hands of the federal government, then tear it down and rebuild it from the bottom up. It's ridiculous for us to assume that they can "fix" what they've driven into the ground. It may sound impossible, but I don't believe it is. I think there are still just enough responsible, intelligent, educated parents left to be able to do it. I agree that more vocational schools should be established and the children of the parents who don't want or are too lazy/uninvolved to participate should attend those. If the kids of those parents want to set themselves apart from their families and choose to further their education, sponsorships or scholarships need to be set up for them.

[jacobdrj]

Why do primary school teachers get paid so little (25k-30k), yet college professors get paid so much (40k-120k)?


I know why, but it is interesting to think about on light of the previous setup comments.

[duhoh]

get more parents to give a damn.

word

[spursncowboys]

word

Parents are more involved when they get to pick the schools they want their kids to go to. Kids also do better.

[jacobdrj]

Parents are more involved when they get to pick the schools they want their kids to go to. Kids also do better.

This is true. You could argue that 'busing' killed the public school system. But are we as a society ready to allow self segregation to occur should busing be eliminated? Can we deal with those repercussions?

That is what happens in charter schools with large minority/majority populations in close proximity. I have seen it 1st hand here in metro Detroit.

[jacobdrj]

I am having a hard time understanding what is 'wrong' with public schools. Learning is an active process, a 2 way street between the teacher and the student. A failed school is one where a child legitimately tries for a goal, to succeed, and fails because there is no venue for his efforts. What kids who have tried to succeed have failed? If we are talking about straight numbers of literacy for a school and blaming teachers, then isn't that turning the learning experience into a 1 way street and a cop-out of our parents for not motivating their children, or children being taught too young a stage in their particular lives to care?

[Blake]

a basic level of literacy and numeracy is required for self-sufficiency in an advanced society.

Primary education is a social must; secondary ed and college should be reserved for anyone with proven (or otherwise compelling) ap ude. Imho.

too bad this isn't a +1 for everybody.....imo

[Blake]

Teachers are the key.

We don't value them in this society. If we did, we would pay them better.
We turn over most of our parental functions to teachers, and then want them to do our job and the traditional teaching job and pay them like we would pay nannies or baby sitters.

There are a lot of really bad teachers out there right now. There are a lot of really bad parents out there right now. If we incented teachers better by paying them better, more competent people would be drawn to it. Some people really consider it a vocation and would do it for almost any amount of money. But, just like with everything else, if you want the absolute best, you have to figure out a better incentive system.

Let me ask you this. If you have a college degree in math and someone offers you a job in a private company that uses your math skills for product development at a salary of 45-60K per annum, and someone offers you a teaching job that uses your math skills at say 25-35K per annum, plus you get to deal with bratty kids, obnoxious (or uncaring)parents, and know that you will struggle to make enough money to give your kids the kind of education that you yourself got, what decision would you make?

And if you say you would teach, how would you justify that decision in light of your own parental obligations to your kids?

I faced that decision. I understand that I live in a capitalist society. I don't have a problem with that. But when I was teaching in a state university making less than some starting young manager in private industry, I recognised that I needed to pay attention to what my society was telling me. So I went to work in private industry and made ten times as much money in short order than I ever would have in a university setting.

Then I could give my kids a good education...and did.

When education is important to us, we will pay educators enough to attract and retain the best in their fields. Until then, our schools get worse and worse.

It's the American way.

Parents are the key. Society should not be turning over parental functions to teachers or principals.

[Blake]

Why do primary school teachers get paid so little (25k-30k), yet college professors get paid so much (40k-120k)?


I know why, but it is interesting to think about on light of the previous setup comments.

if you live in San Antonio, you are misinformed about teacher salaries.

Northeast and Northside school districts start out at $47k.

I also don't think college professors get paid over $100k unless they are tenured dept chairs.......and even then......

[rjv]

if you live in San Antonio, you are misinformed about teacher salaries.

Northeast and Northside school districts start out at $47k.

I also don't think college professors get paid over $100k unless they are tenured dept chairs.......and even then......

correct-it is hard to make a top salary as even a colleg prof. getting tenure is a pain in the ass and one has to work their way up from lecturer to visiting prof to assistant prof and then hope they eventually get tenured.

[coyotes_geek]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not claiming that teachers are or are not adequately paid for the work that they do. But the theory that students will perform better if we give the teachers more money gets tried every time the state legislature meets and it never works. IIRC, when Bush was governor Texas passed the largest teacher pay increase in state history and where did it get us? I won't argue with anyone who says that teachers deserve more money, but if the conversation is how to get the kids a better education then simply giving the teachers more money is a concept that has a proven track record of failure.

[mogrovejo]

Subsidize the students/parents instead of the schools. Give the families the liberty to choice what school they want to provide education to their children.

[baseline bum]

Why do primary school teachers get paid so little (25k-30k), yet college professors get paid so much (40k-120k)?


I know why, but it is interesting to think about on light of the previous setup comments.

College professors are experts in their fields, and who says $40k-$120k is a lot for a field as compe ive as that?

[Blake]

sidebar: school districts getting their money from property taxes sucks.

I'm not sure where the funding would come otherwise, but I just know it sucks.

It's also pretty stupid that lottery money goes towards education.