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  1. #1
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I posted this in another thread, but it really deserves it's own.



    Conclusion
    All of the examples of terrorist attacks on the United
    States can be explained as retaliation for U.S. intervention
    abroad. Empirically validating the connection between an
    interventionist foreign policy and such attacks is more
    critical than ever now that terrorists can more readily
    obtain weapons of mass destruction and seem to be more
    willing to use them. The extensive number of incidents of
    terrorism linked to U.S. foreign policy implies that the
    United States could substantially reduce the chance of
    catastrophic terrorist attacks if it lowered its military
    profile overseas.16 The United States needs to adopt a new
    policy that would use military force only as a last resort
    in the defense of truly vital national interests.
    The Cold War has ended, yet the United States continues
    to use its worldwide military dominance to intervene anywhere
    and everywhere in an effort to maintain its defense
    perimeter far forward. In a changed strategic environment
    in which ostensibly weak terrorist groups might acquire
    weapons of mass destruction, such an extended defense perimeter
    may actually increase the catastrophic threat to the
    American homeland. Even the U.S. Department of Defense
    admits the problem:

    Indeed, a paradox of the new strategic environment
    is that American military superiority actually
    increases the threat of nuclear, biological, and
    chemical attack against us by creating incentives
    for adversaries to challenge us asymmetrically.
    These weapons may be used as tools of terrorism
    against the American people.17
    But proponents of America's current interventionist
    foreign policy, such as the National Review, ignore the new
    strategic realities and criticize the proposed policy of
    military restraint as "preemptively capitulating to the
    terrorists."18 Adopting a restrained foreign policy has
    nothing to do with appeasing terrorists. Terrorist acts are
    morally outrageous and should be punished whenever possible.
    Reducing the motive for terrorists to attack the United
    States with weapons of mass destruction is not the only
    reason to adopt a policy of military restraint overseas,
    although it is a sensible one. In the more benign environment
    of a post-Cold War world, promiscuous military intervention
    by the United States--which can result in lost
    lives, high financial costs, and open-ended commitments--is
    no longer needed. It is common sense, rather than appeasement,
    for the United States to adapt its activist Cold War
    foreign policy to the new strategic environment that requires
    more restraint overseas.
    And before you go calling it Liberal hogwash, know the source:

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb50.pdf

    About Cato

    The Cato Ins ute was founded in 1977 by Edward H. Crane. It is a non-profit public policy research foundation headquartered in Washington, D.C. The Ins ute is named for Cato's Letters, a series of libertarian pamphlets that helped lay the philosophical foundation for the American Revolution.


    Cato's Mission

    The Cato Ins ute seeks to broaden the parameters of public policy debate to allow consideration of the traditional American principles of limited government, individual liberty, free markets and peace. Toward that goal, the Ins ute strives to achieve greater involvement of the intelligent, concerned lay public in questions of policy and the proper role of government.


    How to Label Cato

    Today, those who subscribe to the principles of the American Revolution--individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law--call themselves by a variety of terms, including conservative, libertarian, classical liberal, and liberal. We see problems with all of those terms. "Conservative" smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo. Only in America do people seem to refer to free-market capitalism--the most progressive, dynamic, and ever-changing system the world has ever known--as conservative. Additionally, many contemporary American conservatives favor state intervention in some areas, most notably in trade and into our private lives.

    "Classical liberal" is a bit closer to the mark, but the word "classical" connotes a backward-looking philosophy.

    Finally, "liberal" may well be the perfect word in most of the world--the liberals in societies from China to Iran to South Africa to Argentina are supporters of human rights and free markets--but its meaning has clearly been corrupted by contemporary American liberals.

    The Jeffersonian philosophy that animates Cato's work has increasingly come to be called "libertarianism" or "market liberalism." It combines an appreciation for entrepreneurship, the market process, and lower taxes with strict respect for civil liberties and skepticism about the benefits of both the welfare state and foreign military adventurism.

    The market-liberal vision brings the wisdom of the American Founders to bear on the problems of today. As did the Founders, it looks to the future with optimism and excitement, eager to discover what great things women and men will do in the coming century. Market liberals appreciate the complexity of a great society, they recognize that socialism and government planning are just too clumsy for the modern world. It is--or used to be--the conventional wisdom that a more complex society needs more government, but the truth is just the opposite. The simpler the society, the less damage government planning does. Planning is bersome in an agricultural society, costly in an industrial economy, and impossible in the information age. Today collectivism and planning are outmoded and backward, a drag on social progress.

    Market liberals have a cosmopolitan, inclusive vision for society. We reject the bashing of gays, Japan, rich people, and immigrants that contemporary liberals and conservatives seem to think addresses society's problems. We applaud the liberation of blacks and women from the statist restrictions that for so long kept them out of the economic mainstream. Our greatest challenge today is to extend the promise of political freedom and economic opportunity to those who are still denied it, in our own country and around the world.

  2. #2
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    This completely explains a British citizen blowing up his countrymen, an American soldier killing his superiors with a grenade in the name of Allah, and the decapitation of 900 Jews by Muhammed in 600 A.D.

    Please explain the U.S. acting to save the slaughter of Mulsims by the Serbs WITHOUT a U.N. mandate and they still blame us?


    What's the next step? Kill the gays, of course.

    http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/07/071805london.htm

    UK Gay Leaders Receive Death Threats From Muslim Fundamentalists Group Says
    by Malcolm Thornberry 365Gay.com European Bureau Chief

    Posted: July 18, 2005 8:00 pm ET

    (London) A British LGBT civil rights group says its leaders have received death threats from Muslim fundamentalists and warns that gay clubs could be targets for terrorist bombers.

    "Gay venues could be bombed by Islamic terrorists," OutRage said Monday. "All gay bars and clubs should introduce bag and body searches. Muslim fundamentalists have a violent hatred of lesbians and gay men. They believe we should be killed. Our community could be their next target. This is no time for complacency."

    The warning comes in the wake of this months terrorist attack in London. (story) More than 50 people died in the bombings that authorities say were the work of Islamic militants.

    One bomb went off in a crowded bus, the others exploded in the subway system, two near stations in gay neighborhoods.

    OutRage said that three of the group's officers have received "repeated death threats from Islamic fundamentalists in recent weeks and months."

    Peter Tatc , the leader of OutRage; Brett Lock its campaign coordinator; and Aaron Saeed, the organization's spokesperson on Muslim affairs, have been warned they will be murdered, Tatc said Monday.

    In a statement Tatc said that they have been told they are on a "hit list" and are going to be "beheaded" and "chopped up", in accordance with "Islamic law".

    The threats apparently began soon after OutRage stepped up its campaign in defense of LGBT Muslims, including gay Muslims fleeing attempted "honor killings" in Algeria, Iran Palestine and in the UK.

    Tatc said that since early April, Islamic fundamentalists have made various attempts to track his movements - posing as journalists, police officers and representatives of the Muslim Council of Britain.

    He said that police have been made aware of the threats and are investigating. A spokesperson for the MET said it does not comment on any possible investigations.

    "If the terrorists want to attack the gay community, they may well attempt to detonate a bomb in a crowded gay bar, restaurant, club or community center," according to Lock.

    "We also urge extra security and special vigilance in gay areas like Canal Street and Old Compton Street, and at up-coming, publicly advertised gay events like Big Gay Out and Soho Pride.

    ©365Gay.com 2005



    I sure wish the gays would change their foreign ploicy and keep their butts out of the Muslim lands.

  3. #3
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I KNEW you wouldn't address the issues brought about in the paper. I knew it. But you're alreayd acknowledged as the biggest bigot in here.

    Besides, that Muslim group is just trying to keep pace with Pat Robertson. No biggie.

  4. #4
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    This completely explains a British citizen blowing up his countrymen, an American soldier killing his superiors with a grenade in the name of Allah, and the decapitation of 900 Jews by Muhammed in 600 A.D.

    Please explain the U.S. acting to save the slaughter of Mulsims by the Serbs WITHOUT a U.N. mandate and they still blame us?


    What's the next step? Kill the gays, of course.

    http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/07/071805london.htm

    UK Gay Leaders Receive Death Threats From Muslim Fundamentalists Group Says
    by Malcolm Thornberry 365Gay.com European Bureau Chief

    Posted: July 18, 2005 8:00 pm ET

    (London) A British LGBT civil rights group says its leaders have received death threats from Muslim fundamentalists and warns that gay clubs could be targets for terrorist bombers.

    "Gay venues could be bombed by Islamic terrorists," OutRage said Monday. "All gay bars and clubs should introduce bag and body searches. Muslim fundamentalists have a violent hatred of lesbians and gay men. They believe we should be killed. Our community could be their next target. This is no time for complacency."

    The warning comes in the wake of this months terrorist attack in London. (story) More than 50 people died in the bombings that authorities say were the work of Islamic militants.

    One bomb went off in a crowded bus, the others exploded in the subway system, two near stations in gay neighborhoods.

    OutRage said that three of the group's officers have received "repeated death threats from Islamic fundamentalists in recent weeks and months."

    Peter Tatc , the leader of OutRage; Brett Lock its campaign coordinator; and Aaron Saeed, the organization's spokesperson on Muslim affairs, have been warned they will be murdered, Tatc said Monday.

    In a statement Tatc said that they have been told they are on a "hit list" and are going to be "beheaded" and "chopped up", in accordance with "Islamic law".

    The threats apparently began soon after OutRage stepped up its campaign in defense of LGBT Muslims, including gay Muslims fleeing attempted "honor killings" in Algeria, Iran Palestine and in the UK.

    Tatc said that since early April, Islamic fundamentalists have made various attempts to track his movements - posing as journalists, police officers and representatives of the Muslim Council of Britain.

    He said that police have been made aware of the threats and are investigating. A spokesperson for the MET said it does not comment on any possible investigations.

    "If the terrorists want to attack the gay community, they may well attempt to detonate a bomb in a crowded gay bar, restaurant, club or community center," according to Lock.

    "We also urge extra security and special vigilance in gay areas like Canal Street and Old Compton Street, and at up-coming, publicly advertised gay events like Big Gay Out and Soho Pride.

    ©365Gay.com 2005



    I sure wish the gays would change their foreign ploicy and keep their butts out of the Muslim lands.
    I sure hope you're joking and that isn't you're best response to Manny's article, otherwise, you're just sad.

  5. #5
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    But you're alreayd acknowledged as the biggest bigot in here.
    And your a apologist for the religion. You seem to think I WANT to be right. If I'm right, 20 years from now the world is in shambles and we have full scale religious war. Islam vs. the world. Full blown fighting in the streets. Everywhere. Do you think I WANT that? Your a dip for thinking that.

    If your right, the world will keep revolving. Muslims will continue the pepper homicide bombings and the CIVILIZED world will cave into "political correctness".

    I KNEW you wouldn't address the issues brought about in the paper.
    LMAO! What does a gay in Britain have to do with U.S. foreign policy?

    The U.S goes and protects Mecca and catch for it. The U.S saves Mulsims in the Balkins and catch for it. The U.S gets a pussy attack on 9/11 and retaliates and catches for it. The s use it as an excuse. The U.S give Billions a year and catches for it. If an election was held in Saudi Arabia, Bin Laden would win easy. Anyone who catogorizes Christians in the same mold as Muslims is the bigot.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/


    Everyon ing one are Muslims, dumbass.

    http://www.americandaily.com/article/8172


    Islamic Nations Slaughter and Enslave Christians
    By Tom Barrett (07/10/05)

    THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED. Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians. (See "Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries" in the Resources section below.) This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries. Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.


    Shut up with the bigotry, ! Who is a bigot? Your just a dumb, ignorant dip .


    I spent hours going through the well-do ented profiles of the forty-six countries listed in the report mentioned above. Of these, six did not have significant Muslim populations. Of the thirty-nine with a strong Muslim majority, only seven could be considered to be either neutral or tolerant toward their Christian minorities. If the United States were to treat its roughly two million Muslims with one-tenth of the violence and humiliation that these Islamic nations heap on their Christians, the worldwide outcry would be immediate, and justified. Why, then, does the "Community of Nations," including the United States, turn a deaf ear to the cries of the persecuted Christians in Muslim nations?

    The laws of most of these Islamic nations give lip service to religious freedom. Nothing could be further from the truth. In most of the countries I researched, the death penalty was common for converting from Islam to Christianity (or any other religion). Christians receive no protection from these governments when they are persecuted; indeed, most often the governments themselves are the persecutors. Children of Christians are stolen from their parents so that they can be raised as Muslims. Speaking about Christianity to a Muslim can result in beatings, long prison sentences and even death.

    The most urgent situation demanding our attention today is in Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population of any non-Arab country. There Islamic fundamentalists have promised a bloodbath of Christians before Christmas. This is no idle threat; in 1996 Islamic fundamentalists slaughtered 3,000 Christians in East Timor. More recently, a group called Laskar Jihad, which hails Osama bin Laden as its hero, slaughtered thousands of Christians with the help of government troops. (See "Christians Terrorized in Muslim Indonesia" in the Resources section.)

    An Indonesian military officer is quoted as saying that the government has the power to stop the Jihad, but government officials "all the way to the top" profit from it. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate every Christian in Indonesia or force them to leave. According to Steven Snyder, the president of International Christian Concern who visited Indonesia in November, about 15,000 Laskar Jihad troops equipped with AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers and bulldozers are threatening to kill 50,000 Christians and destroy their homes and churches.

    In Sudan, Christians are sold into slavery or murdered for no other crime than naming the Name of Christ. Over two million have been murdered, and 200,000 have been sold into slavery by their government. An organization named Christian Solidarity International (PLEASE visit C.S.I.'s website listed in Resources Section) has raised money to buy almost 60,000 slaves from their captors and free them. One 22-year-old Protestant girl, a virgin, was captured by government soldiers and raped repeatedly for five days as she was marched through the jungle tied to twenty other slaves. Many women and children died during this march. She was then used as a slave and forced to study Islam until bought out of slavery by C.S.I. You can read her complete story and those of other slaves on C.S.I.'s website.

    What about our "allies"? You can dress a monster up in a pinstriped suit, teach him to speak formally and use the right fork at state dinners, and put him in a group of diplomats for a photo opportunity, but that doesn't make him civilized. Our "friends" in the international community, including Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, and our most recent buddy, Pakistan, are all guilty of atrocities against Christians based on nothing other than their profession of faith. Let me emphasize that we are not talking about a radical minority of citizens acting on their own. We are talking about systematic state persecution, state murder and state crimes against humanity, all legal according to the various cons utions and laws of these vicious nations.

    Let's start with our "friend and ally," Saudi Arabia. Their "Cons ution" is the Koran. This nation, whose population is 98% Muslim, finances Islamic terrorist groups in moderate Islamic nations which force conversion to Islam under the threat of death. In Saudi Arabia, rape is punishable by death- unless it is a Muslim man violating a Christian woman. The Saudis are so rich from their oil that most refuse to do common labor, so they import six million foreign workers. Of these, ten percent are Christians. They are not allowed to wear a cross in public and or to celebrate Christmas, but are forced to observe Ramadan. Christians, even tourists, have been arrested by the Religious Police for participating in prayer meetings in private homes. Any who speak of their faith publicly are tortured in an attempt to convert them to Islam. Those who refuse are executed. Punishment for distributing Bibles can range from lashes with a whip or amputation of a limb, to beheading.

    Turkey, our "military ally", is 99.8% Muslim. Recently, eight Americans were arrested in Turkey for the "crime" of giving away copies of the New Testament. In 1974 Turkey overran Cyprus - which is 80% Christian - and has ruled that small nation with an iron fist since then. The Turkish government expelled thousands of Orthodox Christians, then took a thousand-year-old monastery and turned it into a mosque! Imagine the international outcry if a mosque anywhere were to be stolen by a government and turned into a Christian church.

    Egypt, described by our State Department as a "friend of the United States" is one of the worst persecutors of Christians. In Cairo an entire Christian neighborhood was set on fire by Islamic terrorists. Children were thrown out of windows in front of their horrified parents, churches were burned and Christian's homes destroyed. This went on for two days without the government doing anything to stop it. Egyptian security forces have been accused by eye-witnesses of raping, then crucifying adolescent girls.

    In Pakistan recently a 14-year-old Christian girl was kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam, then raped and given to a Muslim to be one of his wives. The pleas of her parents were ignored by the police. In 1997, Islamic extremists, aided by Pakistani police, destroyed the homes of 800 Christians as well as thirteen churches, because they had "insulted Islam." A few weeks ago six children and nine adults were gunned down as they worshiped in a Christian church. This terrorist nation is our newest "ally" in the war against terrorism.

    The Libyan government took a Christian Cathedral and converted it to a mosque. In Kuwait, the nation America's military saved from a brutal occupation by Iraq, the government tries to bribe Christians to convert to Islam. A Kuwaiti Christian was recently condemned to die by the religious court for converting from Islam. It should come as no surprise that 150,000 Christians have fled Iraq to avoid persecution. Over 150 Christian churches have been demolished in Iraq, where death is the penalty for proclaiming faith in Christ, and where Saddam Hussein has proclaimed himself "The Defender of the Islamic Faith."

    Hundreds of Christian missionaries have been murdered in Algeria and other Islamic nations. Iran pretends to have religious freedom, but students in all schools are forced to study Islam, as are draftees in their military services. Conversion to any religion other than Islam brings a swift death sentence. If space permitted, I could give hundreds of other examples of atrocities committed by Muslims against Christians simply because of their faith. The events I have described are happening as you read this. Christians are being tortured today because they will not convert to Islam. Christians are dying today because they dare to speak the Name of Christ.

    Our President has stated repeatedly that Islam is a peaceful religion which has "been hijacked by radicals." I know why he makes that statement. If Bush said anything else, he would be labeled a hate-monger, as I am sure I will be for speaking the truth. The facts speak for themselves. Do the research, as I have done. Eighty-three percent of the governments of nations with a Muslim majority kill, enslave, and persecute Christians with the blessings (and very often, the complicity) of their Islamic clergy. I'm sure that there are many kind, loving Muslims who live in those countries. I just wonder why they allow such atrocities to be committed in the name of their religion.



    Most of you who have written to me about the goodness and kindness of Muslims know only Muslims who live in this country. They have been influenced by the values of America, which include tolerance toward other religions, values based on the Bible. Many U.S. Muslim immigrants are as horrified as we are by the actions of Muslims in the countries of their birth.
    God tells us in Proverbs 31:8 that we must speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.

    President Bush needs to speak up in behalf of the good people of this nation who are appalled by the cruelty of Islamic governments towards our brothers and sisters in Muslim nations. Our President needs to demand that Muslim nations treat Christians as Muslims are treated here in America. Write to President Bush. Tell him not to be seduced by promises from liars, in order to get their cooperation in our battle against terrorism. The war against terrorism is a just war, but if in our zeal to punish international terrorists we ally ourselves with religious terrorists, what have we gained?
    Editor's Note: This article was first published on December 16, 2001.


    INTERNET RESOURCES:

    DETAILED RESEARCH on Religious Persecution in 46 Muslim Nations: http://www.alleanzacattolica.org/acs...cs_index.htm#A

    "Christians Terrorized in Muslim Indonesia":
    http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=25599

    International Christian Concern:
    http://www.persecution.org/

    Voice of the Martyrs:
    http://www.persecution.com/

    Christian Solidarity International
    http://www.csi-int.org/


    Ed: Views are those of individual authors and not necessarily those of American Daily.



    Tom Barrett has been an ordained minister for 30 years. He has written for local and national publications for most of his life, and has authored several non-fiction books. He has been interviewed on many TV and radio programs, and speaks at seminars nationwide. Tom is the editor and publisher of Conservative Truth, an email newsletter read by over fifty thousand weekly which focuses on moral and political issues from a Biblical viewpoint.

  6. #6
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    All of the people we were fighting in the Vietnamese war were Vietnamese. Obviously Vietnamese is the ethnicity of war.

  7. #7
    Maaaaaannnn fuck.... E20's Avatar
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    Are you sure it's your typical poor broken down Indonesian/Iranian/Iraqi/Afghan/Pakistani/Lebanese/Sudanese/Jordinan etc.... Doing all this?

    I mean seriously they are not all terrorists.

    This is what most of the population looks like in any Muslim country:

    So you are saying that all these people hate everybody else with a passion and want them dead? Or is it the select few who run the area and have beef with the US and go hardcore extermist on everybody, including there own people. These guys will kill innocent muslims who have done nothing but, disobey one of them not doing anything wrong in Islam, Insurgents in Iraq killing MUSLIM children and people because they want to live in peace and not in fear, according to Islam they are not Muslim.

    Look I know Muslims and I talked to about the whole OBL, killing infidel stuff. They said if God put them here he must have a reason for them, God who will do the killing and the life saving, all the desciosn making. The ending verse in one of the muslim prayer means leave it to God for he who knows everything, it doesn't end in Leave it to the Muslims for they know everything. If God put the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, the Buddhists, Hindus, Gays, Athesists, it is his doing and no on should take there life because they don't think it connects with there beliefs or not.

  8. #8
    Fantasy Football Guru Guru of Nothing's Avatar
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    It just dawned upon me how the vast majority views the world through media, or the front porch from which they were raised.

    It explains a lot.

  9. #9
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I post a well respected think tanks perspective on a corolation (more like causation actually) between terrorism against america and interventionist foriegn policy and he posts articles about how bad islam is.

    In actuality, the origional article has nothing to say about the intentions of Islam or of the United States for that matter, simply that international activism plays a primary role in putting us at risk of terrorism.

  10. #10
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    simply that international activism plays a primary role in putting us at risk of terrorism.
    So, I believe you agree with this article, disengagement will improve the situation.

    Have you taken a look at that part of the world? Have you looked at their history? Please explain to me how disengagement will improve the situation. They have been killing each other, and anyone else century after century. The world has become too small a place to let chaos, mayhem and madness run rampant in that part of the world. We aren't talking about Europe here.

    You report is based on a bunch of intellects who believe talking to people will solve issues. Talking to that part of the world hasn't solved anything, ever. Everything is solved at gunpoint. Having discussions is wasted breath.

    Disengagement would allow the madrassas to continue thier hatred for anything past 800 A.D.

    Disengagement won't allow Saudi women to drive a car.

    Disengagemnet won't allow the women to stay married to her husband since her father in law raped her.

    http://washtimes.com/world/20050718-111059-2058r.htm

    Victim ordered to wed rapist
    By Shaikh Azizur Rahman
    THE WASHINGTON TIMES
    July 19, 2005


    BOMBAY -- Hard-line Islamic clerics in a northern Indian village have declared that a woman's 10-year-old marriage was nullified when her father-in-law raped her -- and ordered the mother of five to marry the rapist.
    The fatwa, or religious edict, was issued by Darool Uloom Deoband, South Asia's most powerful Islamic theological school known for promoting a radical brand of Islam that is said to have inspired the Taliban in Afghanistan.
    The decision has outraged both Muslim and Hindu leaders and prompted a fierce debate that has dominated the front pages of national newspapers across India.
    The fatwa ordered Imrana Ilahi, 28, to separate from her husband and treat him as her son because she had sex with his father.
    "She had a physical relationship with her father-in-law, and it nullifies her marriage," said Mohammad Masood Madani, a cleric at the theological school. He said it made no difference whether the sex was consensual or forced. The village council then decreed that Mrs. Ilahi would have to marry her father-in-law.
    Feminists and liberal Muslims reacted with fury, staging nationwide street protests.
    But Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mulayam Singh on June 29 supported the fatwa, saying: "The decision of the Muslim religious leaders in the Imrana case must have been taken after a lot of thought. ... The religious leaders are all very learned and they understand the Muslim community and its sentiments."
    The rape took place June 4 in the village of Charthawal in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, when Mrs. Ilahi's husband, Noor Ilahi, was away.
    When Mr. Ilahi, a brick kiln laborer, learned of the attack, the village court instructed him to divorce his wife.
    But Mr. Ilahi, 32, told his wife: "My father is dirty and you are clean. I still love you and I cannot desert you." Mrs. Ilahi, with her husband and five children, sneaked out of Charthawal and took shelter in Kukra, the village of her parents.
    Mrs. Ilahi received another rude shock when the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, the country's most influential Muslim umbrella organization, endorsed the punishment meted out by Darool Uloom Deoband. "The fact that the woman was 'used' by her husband's blood relative makes her [unclean] for her husband and there is no way she can be allowed to live with him," the law board said.

    Under Shariah law, the rape has made her the mother of her husband, said Naseem Iqtedar, the law board's only female member.
    Outraged leaders of Muslim social organizations met with Mrs. Ilahi's family and took them to police. Police immediately took Mohammad Ali, Mrs. Ilahi's 65-year-old father-in-law, into custody and ordered a medical test of Mrs. Ilahi for the rape.
    Although the All India Muslim Personal Law Board supported the fatwa, the All India Muslim Women Personal Law Board decried it and asked Mrs. Ilahi and her husband not to separate.
    "The fatwa goes against the light of Koran. No tenet of Koran can justify the injustice done to an innocent victim. Imrana should never be punished for no fault of hers. The victim has every right to continue with her marriage and live with her husband," said Shaista Amber, president of women's law board.
    "The Islamic clerics have failed to differentiate between sex by consent and rape by force. The ruling was against the spirit and essence of Islam, which gives equal rights to women."
    Javed Akhtar, a noted Muslim poet, said: "Islam teaches compassion, justice, equality and a fair deal for women. The fatwa, on the other hand, appears to treat women as mere commodities."
    Although police have filed a case against her father-in-law, legal analysts say, Mrs. Ilahi might not be able to prove the crime because she underwent the medical examination almost two weeks after the attack and "doctors could not find any definite sign of the rape."


    It's a mindset the Cato Ins ute falis to take into consideration, IMO. The Arab world has blamed their problems on everyone but themselves for ions. I don't feel isolationism will cure the ill that will eventually bear it's head here, if not addressed.

  11. #11
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    First of all, you make the assumption that socities can't find their own way without the United States. That's really foolish.

    Secondly, you keep making it seem as though the primary goal of intervention overseas is to help other people. It is obviously not. The goal of US international actions is the security of Americans.

    If you really want to provide security for Americans, it makes more sense to stop this nonsense.

    But you're right. When a nuclear weapon goes off in this country killing 500 thousand, it will have been worth it. Afterall, Saudi women will be able to drive!

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    For every person, in a particular country, made angry over U.S. foreign policy there are more -- in that same country -- that are thankful.

    You can't base your foreign policy on who it pisses off. Because they're more than likely the bad guys.

  13. #13
    uups stups! Cant_Be_Faded's Avatar
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    For every person, in a particular country, made angry over U.S. foreign policy there are more -- in that same country -- that are thankful.

    You can't base your foreign policy on who it pisses off. Because they're more than likely the bad guys.


    did clandestino get ahold of your password? certainly your not stupid enough to believe that are you

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    Name a country in which we have a military or diplomatic presence where the government doesn't want us there or where there is public pressure for the government to get us to leave.

    Even in Iraq, there is a recognition that we are a force for good and there is no talk of us leaving before the country is stable and able to defend itself.

    Here's how Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who was in London with Tony Blair when the two received word of today's explosions, responded to a reporter who seemed to think that British participation in Iraq was to blame:

    Can I just say very directly, Paul, on the issue of the policies of my government and indeed the policies of the British and American governments on Iraq, that the first point of reference is that once a country allows its foreign policy to be determined by terrorism, it's given the game away, to use the vernacular. And no Australian government that I lead will ever have policies determined by terrorism or terrorist threats, and no self-respecting government of any political stripe in Australia would allow that to happen.

    Can I remind you that the murder of 88 Australians in Bali took place before the operation in Iraq.

    And I remind you that the 11th of September occurred before the operation in Iraq.

    Can I also remind you that the very first occasion that bin Laden specifically referred to Australia was in the context of Australia's involvement in liberating the people of East Timor. Are people by implication suggesting we shouldn't have done that?

    When a group claimed responsibility on the website for the attacks on the 7th of July, they talked about British policy not just in Iraq, but in Afghanistan. Are people suggesting we shouldn't be in Afghanistan?

    When Sergio de Mello was murdered in Iraq -- a brave man, a distinguished international diplomat, a person immensely respected for his work in the United Nations -- when al Qaeda gloated about that, they referred specifically to the role that de Mello had carried out in East Timor because he was the United Nations administrator in East Timor.

    Now I don't know the mind of the terrorists. By definition, you can't put yourself in the mind of a successful suicide bomber. I can only look at objective facts, and the objective facts are as I've cited. The objective evidence is that Australia was a terrorist target long before the operation in Iraq. And indeed, all the evidence, as distinct from the suppositions, suggests to me that this is about hatred of a way of life, this is about the perverted use of principles of the great world religion that, at its root, preaches peace and cooperation. And I think we lose sight of the challenge we have if we allow ourselves to see these attacks in the context of particular cir stances rather than the abuse through a perverted ideology of people and their murder.
    I couldn't agree more.

    Only a small violent percentage of the populations of the middle east countries in which we have a presence are opposed to us being there.

    It's the Islamo-fascists, stupid. Unless, of course, you're implying all Muslims hate America.
    Last edited by The Ressurrected One; 07-21-2005 at 06:16 PM.

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    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Name a country in which we have a military or diplomatic presence where the government doesn't want us there or where there is public pressure for the government to get us to leave.
    There is plenty of the latter in Japan and South Korea these days, probably most acute in Okinawa.

    Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan want our bases gone too, I've read -- but there could be outside influences in those cases.

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    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    If all of that is true (which is debateable) it is still not irrelevent to how much activist American intervention have a corolation to the terrorism against us.

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    If all of that is true (which is debateable) it is still not irrelevent to how much activist American intervention have a corolation to the terrorism against us.
    There is no justification for terrorism. That's the point.

    We've intervened all over the world...it's only this small violent sect of Islamo-fascist whackoes who are trying to determine our foreign policy by terrorism. And, it's not only OUR foreign policy, it's the foreign policy of those countries in which we are engaged. With the exception of Iraq, we've been invited into every other nation in the middle east. And, now, the legitimate government of Iraq wants us there too.

    If you let them terrorize you into changing your foreign policy, they've won and you're Spain.

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    There is plenty of the latter in Japan and South Korea these days, probably most acute in Okinawa.

    Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan want our bases gone too, I've read -- but there could be outside influences in those cases.
    I don't recall any of the governments of those countries asking the U.S. to leave...and, if they had, we would.

  19. #19
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I don't recall any of the governments of those countries asking the U.S. to leave.
    That was only half your question, but here's an answer to the other half as well.

    Regional Group Calls on US to Pull Out of Bases in Central Asia
    By Andre de Nesnera
    Washington
    20 July 2005

    de Nesnera report - Download 653k
    Listen to de Nesnera report

    For the past several years, the United States has stationed forces in the central Asian countries of Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan.

    Marshall Goldman, a long time-expert on Russia and the former Soviet Union, says the United States planned to send troops there following the September 11th, 2001, terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

    "After September 11th and the United States' decision to go after the Taleban and Osama bin Laden, who was then in Afghanistan, the United States was looking for places to establish air bases, so that it could supply what became the invasion force in Afghanistan," said Mr. Goldman. "And it made sense to go to the Central Asian region, where these countries were now independent - they had broken away from the Soviet Union when it broke up - and to establish bases there."

    The United States received permission to station troops on two sites: in Uzbekistan at the Karshi-Khanabad military base and in Kyrgyzstan, at the international airport in the country's capital, Bishkek.

    Defense Department spokesman Lieutenant Commander Joe Carpenter says the forces there bolster operations in Afghanistan.

    "With Kyrgyzstan, we have approximately 1,000 personnel that are there in support of the air operations from the Kyrgyzstan Bishkek airport, and in Uzbekistan, it is approximately 800 people that support our operations there," he said.

    But the presence of U.S. forces at these two bases is now in jeopardy. A summit earlier this month of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization - bringing together Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan - called on the United States to set a timetable for withdrawing those troops. Following the summit, the host nations repeated that call in separate statements.

    One of the reasons given for the withdrawal of U.S. military forces is that, in the words of the summit participants, "the active military phase in Afghanistan is over." Defense Department spokesman Carpenter disputes that view.

    "With respect to Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, those airfields - the airfield and the airport - those air operations have been critical in helping us combat the Taleban and al-Qaida, facilitate delivery of humanitarian assistance into northern Afghanistan and as a result, help spread democracy to Afghanistan," he said. "But I will remind you that Afghanistan remains a very difficult location. Operations are still ongoing with the coalition, with NATO forces and U.S. forces and those two facilities are still critical to our operations. This is going to be a long-term effort to help Afghanistan build that democratic ins ution and keep al-Qaida and the Taleban at bay."

    Experts believe there are other reasons for the call to withdraw U.S. troops from central Asia.

    In the case of Uzbekistan, analysts point to strong western criticism of President Islam Karimov following events in the city of Andijan in May, when hundreds of Uzbek civilians were reported killed by security forces. A recent United Nations report citing eyewitness accounts said what happened in Andijan amounted to a "mass killing." The U.N. also repeated its call for an international inquiry.

    "The trigger was Uzbek anger at U.S. criticism of the Uzbek government for the Uzbek government's failure to agree to an independent international inquiry into what happened in Andijan," said Martha Brill Olcott, central Asian expert with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. "To say that the U.S. leadership and the Uzbek leadership don't see eye to eye with one another today is an understatement. It's probably the tensest point in U.S.-Uzbek relations any time since the existence of an independent Uzbekistan. I don't know that the Uzbek regime would have wanted the base removed if Andijan had not occurred."

    As for Kyrgyzstan, Ms. Olcott believes there is another aspect to consider.

    "I don't think the Kyrgyz on their own would have pushed for a statement that called for the withdrawal of a U.S. base," she added. "I think they are under very strong pressure from China and Russia to do so. They really are in a very hard position. Their instincts are to have very close ties with the West, but not to antagonize Russia or China."

    Analysts also say what happens to U.S. forces in central Asia will have an impact on the military's strategy globally. Philip Saunders with the National Defense University says the Defense Department's evolving plan is much less dependent on large, permanent overseas bases and more dependent on lighter, shorter-term access agreements with host nations.

    "So basically, the United States military is trying to learn to operate in a much more skeletal manner, so that it can deploy around the world as necessary and Central Asia is one area where that concept is being worked out," he said.

    Many analysts agree the U.S. can't operate from a country's territory, if that country won't allow it. In the meantime, U.S officials say the United States has agreements with Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan concerning the use of those bases, and each side must abide by them.


    http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-07-20-voa37.cfm

  20. #20
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    Regional groups? Are they official or acting on behalf of any government?

    This was an interesting statement in the article:
    "I don't think the Kyrgyz on their own would have pushed for a statement that called for the withdrawal of a U.S. base," she added. "I think they are under very strong pressure from China and Russia to do so. They really are in a very hard position. Their instincts are to have very close ties with the West, but not to antagonize Russia or China."
    al Qaeda is a "regional group" and they want us out of the middle east -- but, they don't represent any government either.

    It's kind of like saying the Democrats want the President to appoint a liberal Justice to the Supreme Court. Well, thanks for the input but, the President is going to appoint whomever he damn well pleases thank you...

    And, back on the issue of the whole reason for terrorism. It really has nothing to do with where we are but with who we are and what we represent.

    The Co-founder of C.A.I.R. put it best, so I'll let him speak:

    "Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."
    That is the ultimate goal for Islamo-fascism and they will glom onto any pretext by which they can attempt to claim legitimacy for their acts of atrocity and barbarism.
    Last edited by The Ressurrected One; 07-21-2005 at 06:58 PM.

  21. #21
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    actually, most countries and their people want the u.s. government/military there. the ones who do the ing aren't the majority...

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    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    Wow, just bothered to read the first one.

    Look, it doesn't matter WTF we do here in America, or what our military. What it boils down to is Osama and people like him want one religion, one nation, one world.

    To them, we are the only thing standing in their way, the lone remaining superpower.

    And on the heels of them beating the Russians in Afghanistan, their strategy, predictably, is to bleed us to death like they did in their eyes to the Russians.

    Keep in mind Osama and Co. believe they are the ones who collapsed the Soviet Union and ended the Cold War, not America (Osama has said as much).

    The rest, all the bull grandstanding about infidels on the Arabian Peninsula, Christian invasion of Mesopotamia, the Zionist plot against Islam, etc., it's all rhetoric carefully calculated by intelligent (yet sadistic) folks like Osama as a means to an end (ours).

    Spare me the whole "American military might/foreign policy" bull . It's nothing but a convenient excuse to try and push on hot buttons of ignorant, bigoted, weak minded individuals that are used by AQ as pawns in their quest to defeat the West.

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    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I love how no one here can dismiss the report by Cato with anything more than their baseless arguements. The next post that provides something to back them up will be the first.

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    I love how no one here can dismiss the report by Cato with anything more than their baseless arguements. The next post that provides something to back them up will be the first.
    I think I have dismissed the report...

    The isolationist approach they recommend would mean abandoning alliances, treaties, and agreements all over the world...including in the middle east.

    Islamo-fascism has been on a expansive, totalitarian crusade since the days of Mohammed. Us getting out of their "holy" lands won't stop that crusade. It will just give them free reign to dominate that part of the world before stepping across the oceans with more forces and more determination.
    Last edited by The Ressurrected One; 07-21-2005 at 08:09 PM.

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    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    I love how no one here can dismiss the report by Cato with anything more than their baseless arguements. The next post that provides something to back them up will be the first.
    Baseless? I gave my thoughts. Sorry, I didn't say the Bush Doctrine sucks, so that means my points weren't valid.

    But just to satisfy your request...

    The last time we tried isolationism, the end result was the Great Depression, the rise of the Third Reich, and WWII.

    Better?

    Isolationism is a recipe for disaster in this day and age. Shut ourselves off to the rest of the world, and China runs roughshod over Asia, while militant Islam takes over Europe, Africa, and South America.

    Then we're the monkey in the middle. No thanks.

    Look, you want to win this ing thing? Then tell your liberal friends to stick all the PC bull up their ass.

    Here's how I go about it...

    1. Shut down the border with Mexico. Use the border patrol, use the Minutemen, whatever. Just from San Diego to Brownsville down.

    Not enough manpower? I am for a civil service type program where people could serve 2 years for their country protecting the homeland. General watching and monitoring the borders, with quick reaction border patrol forces to respond to any incidents.

    2. Infiltrate every Wahhabi mosque and madrassa in the US, Europe, and eventually you have to deal with Africa too.

    I'm not talking having someone there to narc on every little thing they say, but when they start talking about death to America, those types of "religious" ins utes, then it's time to infiltrate further, gather all they can about the plots, and bust every one of those involved.

    3. Europe has to put up some roadblocks to the Muslim invasion (err, immigrants). I'd venture a lot of those involved in things like London travelled continently across Europe.

    4. When push comes to shove (and I really do think that one day we could very well see a true world war - radical Islam vs. the globalized West, embrace our former adversary, Russia. We (both political parties) keep trying to play both sides with Russia.. we want them to help us with the war on terror, but we reserve the right to bemoan and criticize their actions against Chechnya.

    They want to exterminate their pests, we want to exterminate ours, let's kill some bugs.

    5. Tehran and Damascus... make it known that we know they have AQ elements in their country that they are harboring and probably conspiring with. Let them know that the day a WMD hits anywhere in the continental U.S., they are both toast.

    6. ** One of the most important **. Quietly (so not to piss off people like Saudi Arabia and OPEC) invest in alternative fuel sources. If we develop alternative fuels, to the point that we develop something efficient and cheap that we can share with the rest of the world, all of a sudden: 1) the global economy is no longer dependant on oil and 2) a large financial source for militant Islam (oil profit in the Middle East) goes away.

    There's more, but I really don't feel like sitting here all night talking about it and Manny will probably say I've done nothing to refute the original article anyway.

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