"We didn't win the game, but I saw what I wanted to see" - Kobe Bryant

[resistanze]

He saw what he wanted to see 'cause he was roaming on D like a ing Gypsy.

[RsxPiimp]

What's that supposed to mean? Obviously the Lakers have more chances to win when Artest is shooting well. Kobe shoots 41% in losses and 48% in wins. He's 34% from dowtown in wins and 28% in losses. Now what??

The Lakers have a better chance of winning if the role players are hitting their shots even if Kobe is shooting at 41% or below. I never understood the obsession about Kobe's FG%.

Just look at the last 2 games before the Orlando game. Kobe shot 49% (24/49) for the last 2 games, and in both occassions the Lakers lost.


IN games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA still won all their games.

5/14 against Indiana
3/17 against Denver
2/12 against Charlotte
8/20 against Boston
4/19 against Orlando
5/11 against Dallas


The rest of the role players needs to start hitting their shots and assert themselves offensively if they dont want Kobe shooting them out of games.

The case for Fisher is that he didn't decline as much as Kobe, is still a more or less respectable shooter and, most importantly, at least doesn't jack up so many shots..??

False. Fisher ranks among the Top 5 in lowest PER among starting NBA players. He's shooting 38% from the field this season.

The "you don't watch games" is laughable.

Its not laughable.

I'm saying that the Lakers lack outside shooting since the start of the season.

The question is: why would you exclude Kobe when he's the primary reason why the Lakers are shooting so poorly from the outside?

Kobe is not excluded. But LA's spot up shooters deserves a bigger blame. They are not being constantly doubled on ISO settings like Kobe. Their roles are to hit open jumpers when Kobe and Gasol commands a double team. That is the only way you'll establish a better spacing in the Triangle. If the opposing team does not respect your shooters, your big men will not establish a better position and you'll have a cluster fest offensively.

[Baseline]

Have you Laker fans ever thought about the fact that it's hard for other guys to get assists if said ball is in Bryant's hands 85% of the time?

And we all know that Bryant is looking to shoot 99% of the time.

That doesn't leave a lot of room for other dudes, no matter how talented they are.

What's amazing to me is that Gasol is one of the few guys who has had the stones to step up and say something about Bryant and his selfish play. People treat Bryant like he's Idi Amin, a dictator who will have you beheaded if you speak against him.

Gasol has a 3 year/60 million contract, so thankfully he feels comfortable enough to say something. But I'll bet the clock is ticking on Bryant getting Gasol shipped out of town. It certainly has happened before.

[Double-Up]

It would be nice if Kobe played off ball every now and then but that rarely happens and you know the why.

[NRHector]

If he saw what he wanted to see then why was he so pissed off at the end of the game?

[Tom Slick]

If I were matt barnes, I would have made sure Kobe needed an ambalamps after trash talking me

[mogrovejo]

The Lakers have a better chance of winning if the role players are hitting their shots even if Kobe is shooting at 41% or below. I never understood the obsession about Kobe's FG%.

LOL

You don't? Well, maybe it's because he takes so many shots, I don't know.

Just look at the last 2 games before the Orlando game. Kobe shot 49% (24/49) for the last 2 games, and in both occassions the Lakers lost.

Do you really want me to find

IN games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA still won all their games.

5/14 against Indiana
3/17 against Denver
2/12 against Charlotte
8/20 against Boston
4/19 against Orlando
5/11 against Dallas

That's a testament to the quality of Kobe's teammates. It probably means he should defer more to them.

However, you're lying.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2010/

Eight games were Kobe shot bellow 40% and LAL lost.

If you can't even check some basic data, no wonder you're so confused. Unless you just decided to make it up in order to strengthen your crazy point,

The rest of the role players needs to start hitting their shots and assert themselves offensively if they dont want Kobe shooting them out of games.

Hmm, like Artest needs to start hitting 38% of his 3pt shots? Wait, he already does it. But you blame him for the inconsistent outside shooting of the Lakers!!!

You're a mess.

False. Fisher ranks among the Top 5 in lowest PER among starting NBA players. He's shooting 38% from the field this season.

But LA's spot up shooters deserves a bigger blame.

Artest is not a spot up shooter. They should have signed Kapono instead. Yet, the problem is not Artest. What's so difficult to understand about this? The man is shooting 38%!

They are not being constantly doubled on ISO settings like Kobe. Their roles are to hit open jumpers when Kobe and Gasol commands a double team. That is the only way you'll establish a better spacing in the Triangle. If the opposing team does not respect your shooters, your big men will not establish a better position and you'll have a cluster fest offensively.

Dude, the guys bringing LAL 3pt shooting down are Fisher a little big and Kobe in a big, big way.

Yet you blamed Artest - who was never a shooter but is actually having a great shooting year - and left out Kobe. You even make up data.

Not sure what else to say.

[RsxPiimp]

LOL

You don't? Well, maybe it's because he takes so many shots, I don't know.


Do you really want me to find

I dont deny this. I often criticize him for that this season, Kobe's shot selection does add up wrinkles to LA's offense, but you take the bad with the goodies. Just dont exert your effort in his FGA to prove a point. Thats why I said people who dont watch games and rely on box scores should'nt be allowed to comment objectively. So far your choice of logic is proving me right.

However, you're lying.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2010/

Eight games were Kobe shot bellow 40% and LAL lost.
.

Im not lying. You just chose to flip your script to put this debate in your favor. So now all of a sudden its below 40% . Lakers also won 9 games when Kobe shot below it. You're arguing over semantics?

That's a testament to the quality of Kobe's teammates. It probably means he should defer more to them.

Its just not Kobe. There are numerous occassions where Shannon Brown, Derek Fisher and Farmar have been trigger happy and have nights where they shot more than Bynum and Gasol combined. Execution has been a mess for Los Angeles. They surely miss Luke Walton. Watch more games and you'll have a deeper understanding.

Hmm, like Artest needs to start hitting 38% of his 3pt shots? Wait, he already does it. But you blame him for the inconsistent outside shooting of the Lakers!!!.

Artest earlier this season was shooting 40% beyond the arc, Lakers not a coincident was also winning a lot of games. Not a problem. Lakers are 5-5 in their last 10 games. Not a coincidence however is the fact that Artest is shooting 28% from the 3Pt land.


BTW, I was'nt solely blaming him for the Lakers woes. I would appreciate it if you skip putting words in other peoples mouth. I was merely pointing out one of the few issues they have on offense.

Artest is not a spot up shooter. They should have signed Kapono instead. Yet, the problem is not Artest. What's so difficult to understand about this? The man is shooting 38%! !!!.

28% during the last 10 games is one of the issues. Not really hard to grasp.

Dude, the guys bringing LAL 3pt shooting down are Fisher a little big and Kobe in a big, big way.

Yet you blamed Artest - who was never a shooter but is actually having a great shooting year - and left out Kobe. You even make up data.

Not sure what else to say.

You're missing the point and the bigger picture. What's a "little big" btw? The games I showed you proving Kobe's FG% is not the only deciding factor is real unfortunately for you, Lakers have shown they can win more than lose even if Kobe is not having a good shooting night. The trade off however is they need to step up. Redundancy in the post and the lack of consistent 3-point shooting is killing the Lakers. Kobe is going to be Kobe. He will get his shots and he will most likely make 45% of it. So let's not get myopic. Bryant has always tried to take over the ball game. and his record shows he succeeds more then he fails the last 2 years. They will work it out for the final stretch and I have reason to believe Kobe will adjust his game when it matters the most. All this useless jibber jabber is hilarious.

[JamStone]

If he saw what he wanted to see then why was he so pissed off at the end of the game?

He wasn't that pissed off. He was upset he missed the last shot like most players would be. But it's not like he kicked an exercise bike or refused to talk to the media. It's a regular season game and he missed the game-tying shot. He walked off. Didn't seem like he was that pissed off at all.

[NRHector]

He wasn't that pissed off. He was upset he missed the last shot like most players would be. But it's not like he kicked an exercise bike or refused to talk to the media. It's a regular season game and he missed the game-tying shot. He walked off. Didn't seem like he was that pissed off at all.

he didn't kick the bike but did hit the chair when they called time out

[TheMACHINE]

he didn't kick the bike but did hit the chair when they called time out

nothing wrong with that right?

[NRHector]

nothing wrong with that right?

why did he do that if he was happy with what he saw?

[TheMACHINE]

why did he do that if he was happy with what he saw?

ahhhh i see....you dont have good reading comprehension.

[Mike D]

why did he do that if he was happy with what he saw?

You are missing the forest through the trees.

[RsxPiimp]

why did he do that if he was happy with what he saw?

Are you really that dense? I mean. WOW.

[cobbler]

The Lakers have a better chance of winning if the role players are hitting their shots even if Kobe is shooting at 41% or below. I never understood the obsession about Kobe's FG%.

Just look at the last 2 games before the Orlando game. Kobe shot 49% (24/49) for the last 2 games, and in both occassions the Lakers lost.


IN games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA still won all their games.

5/14 against Indiana
3/17 against Denver
2/12 against Charlotte
8/20 against Boston
4/19 against Orlando
5/11 against Dallas


The rest of the role players needs to start hitting their shots and assert themselves offensively if they dont want Kobe shooting them out of games.





False. Fisher ranks among the Top 5 in lowest PER among starting NBA players. He's shooting 38% from the field this season.



Its not laughable.



Kobe is not excluded. But LA's spot up shooters deserves a bigger blame. They are not being constantly doubled on ISO settings like Kobe. Their roles are to hit open jumpers when Kobe and Gasol commands a double team. That is the only way you'll establish a better spacing in the Triangle. If the opposing team does not respect your shooters, your big men will not establish a better position and you'll have a cluster fest offensively.

Well said... but he still won't get it.

[RedsLakers24]

I'm SICK of Gasol's b.itching... Honestly! If you're gonna whine and complain, TRY CATCHING THE BALL FOR ONCE. Stop turning it over. And stop passing it right back to Kobe EVERY TIME! Do you guys not notice that? It's laughable that he would make these comments. This guy is a joke. Stop being a softer than a 300lb woman's jiggly thighs and maybe you'd get the ball. Seriously. All he does is dribble..dribble..get punked, get stripped, lose the ball, then whine and moan for a foul. Its starting to reeaallly piss me off.

[cobbler]

Have you Laker fans ever thought about the fact that it's hard for other guys to get assists if said ball is in Bryant's hands 85% of the time?

Utter nonsense. Completely made up number by you.

And we all know that Bryant is looking to shoot 99% of the time..

Again, made up by you.

That doesn't leave a lot of room for other dudes, no matter how talented they are..

Shannon Brown doesnt have any issues getting up shots. Fish doesn't either. If you are not going to be agressive, command the ball, and look to be offensive, then you are not going to go far in the offense.

What's amazing to me is that Gasol is one of the few guys who has had the stones to step up and say something about Bryant and his selfish play. People treat Bryant like he's Idi Amin, a dictator who will have you beheaded if you speak against him..

Oh yeah, Pau has the stones to step up in the media. How about he takes that on the court? If he did there wouldn't be any issues. Hard to toss a ball to a guy getting pushed off his spot on a constant basis and shooting a less % than the jump shooters. Not to mention handling the ball like a hot potato in crunch minutes. BTW, weren't all you guys chastizing and still are berating Kobe for taking through the media? Oh I see, it's only throwing your teammate under the bus if it's Kobe doing the talking. I guess Pau couldn't have done that behind closed doors.

Gasol has a 3 year/60 million contract, so thankfully he feels comfortable enough to say something. But I'll bet the clock is ticking on Bryant getting Gasol shipped out of town. It certainly has happened before.

Again, made up by you. It is well do ented by all parties that Kobe never asked, requested, or insisted Shaq be shipped. Of course you haters cannot believe it becuase it doesn't fit your agenda. Regardless that Kobe, PJ, Buss, & Shaq have all verified it.

[JamStone]

Let's look at some other second options on good NBA teams, and a couple first options as well.

Field goal attempts per game:

Amare Stoudemire 15.1
Tim Duncan 14.5
LaMarcus Aldridge 14.5
Deron Williams 13.8
Jason Terry 13.7
Jamal Crawford 13.3
Chauncey Billups 12.8
Mo Williams 12.8
Pau Gasol 12.7
Gerald Wallace 12.5
Jason Richardson 12.5
Ray Allen 12.5
Josh Smith 12.0
Kevin Garnett 10.9
Dwight Howard 10.3

Pau is right in line with most second options on good teams. Heck, he even gets more shot attempts than a couple guys who could be considered first options.


Now look at Pau's career numbers in a couple categories:

Pau's career field goal attempts per game: 13.5
This season: 12.7

Pau's career assists per game: 3.2
This season: 3.4

Pau's career free throw attempts per game: 6.3
This season: 4.9

So basically, Pau gets very similar field goal attempts and assists and free throw attempts compared to what he's always gotten throughout his career, even including when he was a number 1 option. As a Laker, he's probably given up around 3-5 touches a game (my personal guess) compared to when he was a no. 1 option. In fact, when Kobe ball hogs, he's usually taking away shots from players other than Pau. Pau still gets his touches. In the triangle, there are opportunities for everyone in the offense. Everyone will get a touch. If they aren't aggressive in looking for their opportunities, when it's swung back to Kobe, don't expect him to not be aggressive with the ball. Sure, there are times when Kobe takes quick shots and becomes a blackhole especially if he gets hot. But, it's not as much as some people try to say it is.

In other words, Pau should shut the up.

[RedsLakers24]

Let's look at some other second options on good NBA teams, and a couple first options as well.

Field goal attempts per game:

Amare Stoudemire 15.1
Tim Duncan 14.5
LaMarcus Aldridge 14.5
Deron Williams 13.8
Jason Terry 13.7
Jamal Crawford 13.3
Chauncey Billups 12.8
Mo Williams 12.8
Pau Gasol 12.7
Gerald Wallace 12.5
Jason Richardson 12.5
Ray Allen 12.5
Josh Smith 12.0
Kevin Garnett 10.9
Dwight Howard 10.3

Pau is right in line with most second options on good teams. Heck, he even gets more shot attempts than a couple guys who could be considered first options.


Now look at Pau's career numbers in a couple categories:

Pau's career field goal attempts per game: 13.5
This season: 12.7

Pau's career assists per game: 3.2
This season: 3.4

Pau's career free throw attempts per game: 6.3
This season: 4.9

So basically, Pau gets very similar field goal attempts and assists and free throw attempts compared to what he's always gotten throughout his career, even including when he was a number 1 option. As a Laker, he's probably given up around 3-5 touches a game (my personal guess) compared to when he was a no. 1 option. In fact, when Kobe ball hogs, he's usually taking away shots from players other than Pau. Pau still gets his touches. In the triangle, there are opportunities for everyone in the offense. Everyone will get a touch. If they aren't aggressive in looking for their opportunities, when it's swung back to Kobe, don't expect him to not be aggressive with the ball. Sure, there are times when Kobe takes quick shots and becomes a blackhole especially if he gets hot. But, it's not as much as some people try to say it is.

In other words, Pau should shut the up.

[diego]

its a chicken - egg situation and the truth is somewhere in between. But its obvious to me that, no matter what your personnel is, you have to have a balanced attack. also, in kobe's case, by no means does he have the worst supporting cast of a franchise player, maybe in 05/06/07 but definitely not now. they should have a more balanced attack and he should be fostering it. its not like you have to practice to play 1 on 5.

[NBAfan83]

Let's look at some other second options on good NBA teams, and a couple first options as well.

Field goal attempts per game:

Amare Stoudemire 15.1
Tim Duncan 14.5
LaMarcus Aldridge 14.5
Deron Williams 13.8
Jason Terry 13.7
Jamal Crawford 13.3
Chauncey Billups 12.8
Mo Williams 12.8
Pau Gasol 12.7
Gerald Wallace 12.5
Jason Richardson 12.5
Ray Allen 12.5
Josh Smith 12.0
Kevin Garnett 10.9
Dwight Howard 10.3

Pau is right in line with most second options on good teams. Heck, he even gets more shot attempts than a couple guys who could be considered first options.


Now look at Pau's career numbers in a couple categories:

Pau's career field goal attempts per game: 13.5
This season: 12.7

Pau's career assists per game: 3.2
This season: 3.4

Pau's career free throw attempts per game: 6.3
This season: 4.9

So basically, Pau gets very similar field goal attempts and assists and free throw attempts compared to what he's always gotten throughout his career, even including when he was a number 1 option. As a Laker, he's probably given up around 3-5 touches a game (my personal guess) compared to when he was a no. 1 option. In fact, when Kobe ball hogs, he's usually taking away shots from players other than Pau. Pau still gets his touches. In the triangle, there are opportunities for everyone in the offense. Everyone will get a touch. If they aren't aggressive in looking for their opportunities, when it's swung back to Kobe, don't expect him to not be aggressive with the ball. Sure, there are times when Kobe takes quick shots and becomes a blackhole especially if he gets hot. But, it's not as much as some people try to say it is.

In other words, Pau should shut the up.

First off, hard to argue some of those being listed as being second options.

Second, pau's averaging almost 4 offensive rebounds a game, and probly gets those extra FGA off putbacks or thru offensive rebounds as evidenced by the 4th quarter of the Orlando game where most of his attempts were from offensive rebounds.

Third, you can't compare FGA by guards and FGA by C/PF's cuz it's skewed. Dwights Howards FGA for example is some part from his offensive rebounds also.

Fourth, Can't blame pau, when the lakers won the championship and reach the finals vs boston, Pau was a big reason for that. He and Kobe actually delivered a one and two punch, with Pau being the more efficient scorer.

Fifth, with Bynum's surprisingly injury free season, and the switch between ariza and artest, there are fewer touches to go around, as artest takes a few ill advised shots and bynum also compains about his touches. The only person Gasol doesn't have to compete with offensively with is Odom. Heck, even fishers shooting more this season.

And Lastly, it's just human nature, when your scoring at a good clip and you got your confidence up, you want more touches, also it hurts confidence when you don't know when you are going to get the ball.

[mogrovejo]

Im not lying. You just chose to flip your script to put this debate in your favor. So now all of a sudden its below 40% .

Huh?

You:

IN games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA still won all their games.

Fact: In games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA didn't win all their games - not even close to it.

What's wrong with you?

Artest earlier this season was shooting 40% beyond the arc, Lakers not a coincident was also winning a lot of games.

It's called a fluke.

Why are you holding Artest to such a standard? Artest was never a good shooter. Why are you holding him responsible for his bad shooting when he's having a career year in terms of shooting? He's exceeding expectations and you're saying he isn't doing enough? You're nuts.

The games I showed you proving Kobe's FG% is not the only deciding factor is real unfortunately for you, Lakers have shown they can win more than lose even if Kobe is not having a good shooting night.

So? Every team can win with their best player having a bad shooting night.

The trade off however is they need to step up. Redundancy in the post and the lack of consistent 3-point shooting is killing the Lakers. Kobe is going to be Kobe. He will get his shots and he will most likely make 45% of it. So let's not get myopic. Bryant has always tried to take over the ball game. and his record shows he succeeds more then he fails the last 2 years. They will work it out for the final stretch and I have reason to believe Kobe will adjust his game when it matters the most. All this useless jibber jabber is hilarious.

Look, I dont' know if he's going to adjust his game. What happened in the past is irrelevant because Kobe is declining quickly - so he can't keep playing the same way he played in the past, even after adjusting for the playoffs.

But I'm not discussing the future; I'm discussing your statement that Fisher and Artest are the main responsibles for the Lakers lack of consistent outside shooting. That's just inane, especially when Kobe is shooting 31% from 3. The fact that you aren't able to admit you were wrong on calling out Artest and sparing Kobe is quite telling.

[mogrovejo]

Let's look at some other second options on good NBA teams, and a couple first options as well.

Before you should look at a couple of simple concepts:

- pace.

- it's not about the shooting. Gasol isn't even American, he doesn't care that much about scoring numbers and hoisting shots. It's the balance, stupid.

[JamStone]

It's perspective though. There are Kobe haters and critics that make it seem like Kobe never passes the ball. Some try to make it seem like Kobe shoots it every time he touches it. It's simply not true. Now can he be a ballhog? Sure. Has he every been a ballhog? Absolutely.

First, I said some of those players could also be considered first options as well.

Second, Gasol was averaging 2-3 offensive rebounds when he was a first option. So the difference might be 1 or 1.5 offensive rebounds. That doesn't skew the numbers that much.

Third, you can absolutely compare FGA of guards and bigs when they are not the first option. But, more than anything, it's too give perspective when you look at "approximately" how many touches a player gets.

Fourth, I blame Pau for ing publicly. Pau helped the Lakers, but Kobe was still the main guy and main reason for them winning it all. And it's hard to say Pau was more efficient, like you say it's hard to compare FGA between guards and bigs, since most of Pau's field goals are closer to the rim and when Kobe also shoots three pointers and often has to take bailout shots when the shot clock is winding down and against tougher contests.

Fifth, with fewer touches to go around and Pau still getting basically the same amount of touches as he did last year, why is he ing?

Lastly, then Pau should demand the ball. We hear and read him complain in the media, and when he's on the court, he plays like a pussy and won't demand the ball. Demand the ing ball.