Timmy = not even Top 15 Player All-Time

[cd98]

You should have seen what Robert Horry and Bruce Bowen were doing at age 35...and David Robinson at age 37.

I did. I also saw what they did at 26. It was much better than what I saw at 35 and 37.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bill Russell is maybe the most overrated player of all time. He doesn't even belong in the same sentence as Duncan or all the other big men talked about in the top 10 player discussion. I know his rebounding numbers are off the charts but given his physical advantages over other players in that era they should be. His offensive numbers were abysmal especially when you consider what they could have been, he was never the main option on any of his championship teams.

[Shastafarian]

Explain game 2 then Physicist extraordinaire.

[cd98]

8 time all NBA D is a role player?


And if you were paying attention, I'm not just defending David Robinson, I'm defending Tony Parker and Manu and Stephen Jackson...I am defending the team over the individual.

You OTOH...I see significant evidence to indicate you are in a fact a Tim Duncan fan and not a SpursFan, in fact, Duncan is obviously the only player that matters to you TD 21.

And Duncan got his ass kicked into the dirt in 2001 and 2002. So obviously...it takes more than him playing great to win a le. Something I am sure he would be the first to admit.

Where was Robinson the great Shaq defender in 2001 and 2002? Actually, 1999 is Exhibit A at how one player can so thoroughly dominate every series...Duncan was man above boys in that run.

No one said that a player can win a le by himself. All were saying is he won a le without a superstar/hof wingman. Why can't you give TD the credit he deserves?

[whottt]

My point is that Tim Duncan is the only superstar to win a le without another teammate that is a hall of famer playing in his prime.

And that is most assuredly false...

Hakeem Olajuwon did it.
Shaquille O'Neal did it.

To be fair...those two did have Robert Horry. He didn't contribute much...

Magic Johnson did it.(Kareem was 33 the first year he played with Magic).

If you think that is Larry Bird, well it doesn't hold up on the facts, but you can believe what you want. My point is that Tim Duncan, in his prime, was so good he could win les with role players and no superstars. You have failed to cite any other NBA superstar to do that, so my take is that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem

I respect some of your arguments, though I disagree with them. In my book Parker, though a great point guard, is not a HOF.

And your book will prove to make libelous claims.

But your Robert Horry argument is pure nonsense. To say Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, and Hakeem would not have won les with Horry destroys your credibility.

Well in fact they all did win les without him, except for Hakeem. I am saying the les they won with him would not have been won without him.

They are only the best players in the league for the last 10 years.

And it means nothing when they were on bad teams. Because none of them won les like that.

[cd98]

So Kobe wasn't that good. Okay.

[cd98]

And neither was James Worthy.

[Thomas82]

funny because i rank tim above larry bird.

Duncan won more championships and finals mvps than bird. He won 2 mvps to bird's 3, but everyone knows that duncan deserved the mvp in the year prior to his first, which was given to karl malone.

Duncan also won all those les without a bunch of hall of fame teammates.

+1

[cd98]

You can't say that if not for Horry, the teams he was on would not have won les in the years he played with them. How do you know Spurs don't win game 6 and 7 in 2005? They killed Detroit in games 1 and 2.

Again, you are en led to your opinions, but Horry is no HOF, good role player, but role players aren't in the HOF.

[cd98]

OR Clyde the Glide. Not that good.

[Shastafarian]

OR Clyde the Glide. Not that good.

You missed your opportunity to call our resident Astrophysicist out when he said Hakeem and Shaq won without hall of famers in their prime. Hasn't he been claiming Horry should be in the hall of fame? Then he comes with that weak sauce to preempt you calling him out "Horry didn't contribute much". I'm just gonna call him Will Hunting from now on.

[cd98]

You missed your opportunity to call our resident Astrophysicist out when he said Hakeem and Shaq won without hall of famers in their prime. Hasn't he been claiming Horry should be in the hall of fame? Then he comes with that weak sauce to preempt you calling him out "Horry didn't contribute much". I'm just gonna call him Will Hunting from now on.

Very right you are. I surrender.

[ShoogarBear]

Now you know why I hate the Celtics above all, even the Lakers.

Seventeen years I had to put up with this kind of ignorant by the arrongant, pompous bags of the Boston sports media: Johnny Most, Ray Fitzgerald, Will McDonough, Dan Shaughnessy, Tommy Heinsohn, and the Grand Master Asshole of them all, Bob Ryan.

If Boston had won the lottery in 97, Shaunghessy would have spent the last 13 years with his tongue in Duncan's butt pleading for a book deal.

Cousy 39%-shooting no-D probably wouldn't make the NBDL today.

[whottt]

Why did he get traded from the Suns eh?

For throwing a towel in his coach's face during the middle of a game.

And how dare you minimize face of the franchise, Tim Duncan's masterful 2003 performance that puts him potentially in the top 5 of NBA greats and makes this franchise what it is today.

How dare you minimize

A: The entire 2003 Spurs Team.
B. Tim Duncan's team first at ude.
C. Duncan himself by claiming his status top 5 player is because of one playoff.

[whottt]

So Kobe wasn't that good. Okay.

And neither was James Worthy.

You said HOF in their prime:

Kobe Bryant was 21 when the 99 Lakers won their le.
James Worthy wasn't even on Magic's first le team and he was 21 on his first.


Neither contsitute in their prime based on the standard you used against Parker and Manu.


And Clyde Drexler was 35 when he won that le with Hakeem.

[LOL@MavsFan]

Wilt averaging 50 against talent equivalent to today's NBDL

[LOL@MavsFan]

You said HOF in their prime:

Kobe Bryant was 21 when the 2000 Lakers won their le.
James Worthy wasn't even on Magic's first le team and he was 21 on his first.


Neither contsitute in their prime based on the standard you used against Parker and Manu.


And Clyde Drexler was 35 when he won that le with Hakeem.

Corrected

[Shastafarian]

And Clyde Drexler was 35 when he won that le with Hakeem.

He was 32. He turned 33 a little over a week after the finals ended.

[whottt]

You missed your opportunity to call our resident Astrophysicist out when he said Hakeem and Shaq won without hall of famers in their prime. Hasn't he been claiming Horry should be in the hall of fame? Then he comes with that weak sauce to preempt you calling him out "Horry didn't contribute much". I'm just gonna call him Will Hunting from now on.

No...in fact, I will give you guys props for that.

Props Shasta that is a fantastic point. And I concede it. Robert Horry(HOFer) was in his prime for the Shaq's les.


And BTW, thank you for figuring out a way to get Shaq off that list. I actually hated having to put him on it but he belonged on it based on that criteria.

So that just leaves Magic and Hakeem....and possibly anyone else I didn't think of off the type of my head.


I am not against giving Duncan credit he dserves in fact I quite like it, but you can just arbitrarily change the standard for players and expect to be taken seriously.


PS:

And that is most assuredly false...

Hakeem Olajuwon did it.
Shaquille O'Neal did it.

To be fair...those two did have Robert Horry. He didn't contribute much...

The part about contributing was sarcasm fool.

[Thomas82]

wow is someone jealous because they didn't get the lottery balls to go there way and had to pick paul pierce instead of timmy d even though the celtics had the most losses that year...or is it the fact that we just creamed your team by 21 yesterday

Actually, Paul Pierce was drafted the year after Tim Duncan. In the '97 Draft, the Celtics actually had 2 1st round picks. They took Chauncey Billups at #3, and Ron Mercer at #6.

[LOL@MavsFan]

Maybe, maybe not. Can you name who Kobe dropped 81 on just a few years ago? Wilt dropped 100 points against the Knick's center Phil Jordan, who was 6'10.

And how tall was he? Over 7ft w/ long arms. He isnt if he plays now...he was just benefiting from a weak, white NBA. Nice accomplishment, but he would be another decent center in today's NBA....

[whottt]

He was 32. He turned 33 a little over a week after the finals ended.

PS: And how old was Clyde in 94...you know, when he was in Portland?

[Agloco]

Off the top of my head I'd take Wilt Chamberlain (always No. 1, the guy averaged 50.4 points a game during the 1961-62 season), Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and Bob Cousy ahead of Duncan. There's a quick 10 without as much as a three-second violation.

Nothing against Duncan, but you could also give me Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Kevin McHale. Oh, and let's not forget Bob Pet , Moses Malone, John Stockton and Isiah Thomas.

This is trash.

[duncan228]

SI: Duncan’s Boredom Limits Greatness?
Not this argument again.
by Chris Deaton
SLAM

Subs ution: a bit of bluntness for propriety.

It’s poor etiquette to throw near-faceless cyberjabs at a fellow sportswriter, so that isn’t gonna happen. But the opinion of Dan Shaughnessy, that Tim Duncan’s legend is hampered by, well, not enough fame or something: dude, it’s goofy. So are these “rankings” of the best players, in a way; and those of the best bars, the best beers, the best bodies, though they’re fun fodder for fellas around the coffee pot. Our opinions are arbitrary—they’re judgment calls.

I care for Tim Duncan. Always have. If he really is “the Pete Sampras of basketball,” at 20K/10K and counting, at four rings, three Finals MVPs, two League MVPs and one fundamental moniker that expresses why he’s the game’s how-to guide, then he could be, oh, somewhere around eighth in the historian’s list of greats.

Could be. It may not be his definitive slot on the hoops hierarchy, but not only is he in the chat, he’s one among a mere few who belongs. So don’t dismiss him so easily, please. The moment that Tim Duncan and Bob Pet occupy the same plane of balling goodness, Star Wars and Avatar are equal FX marvels.

But they are!

If adjusted for technological evolution, sure. But we’ve driven around this block. There’ve been many thousands of days since Pet ’s days, and Tim Duncan plays against harder, better, faster, stronger. His team’s win percentage has never dipped below .600—and he’s never been anything but the best player on his team.

All of these and more are the reasons many think Duncan is the best power forward to have played professional ball, so elaboration is redundant. And it’s hard—nay, preposterous—to say whether his greatness exceeds that of Cousy’s or West’s or any of the others’ floating in the NBA’s exosphere.

But the idea that Tim Duncan is an unremarkable superstar—someone whose brilliance has been dimmed by “a small media market” or “a lack of flair” or a nickname befitting “a guy you’d fit for a pocket protector”—is plumb silly. His commitment to executing all facets of the game, those that appear in the box score and otherwise, amplifies his plentiful talent and sets him further apart from his contemporaries and predecessors.

The defense slumbers.


(Joe Posnanski, whose top-ten appraisal of Duncan beckoned Shaughnessy’s response, gives his 88 cents here.)

*********************

The Posnanski piece that got the Shaughnessy response.

Let's Hear Some Noise For An Icon
Joe Posnanski

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145496

*****

Edit: The Posnanski rebuttal is now on SI.com.

Rebuttal to a rebuttal: Duncan's stats put him in elite class

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...int/index.html

[DAF86]

Magic-Jordan-Bird-Duncan-Russell

That's it.