Stats Lie...the Well is Dry.

[IceColdBrewski]

Can you give me the cliff notes of what you said?

The team plays better without Tony.

[Parker2112]

Overall, solid response, but...

As for the point with more ball movement without Parker, the numbers don't seem to agree..

APG with Tony Parker out of the lineup this season: 22.5
APG with Tony Parker in the lineup this season: 22.1

There isn't much of a difference at all.. , I thought it would be more than this, since teams often rely on more ball movement when one of their star players go out, since you generally can't make up for the talent of a star....

Small increase, but that may speak volumes when it is your ALL-STAR POINT GUARD that is out. Logic would say a major drop here...

Plus ball movement helps get the defense out of position and create lanes to attack just as easily as it creates easy shot opportunities. How many times have we seen the ball swing around the court and then find George or RJ or Manu with a lane to the bucket, but no assist since they drove to the hole? Just sayin.

As for the Spurs getting easier shots and being less reliant on 3s without Parker, the numbers don't seem to agree..

APG at the rim with Tony Parker out of the lineup this season: 8.3
APG at the rim with Tony Parker in the lineup this season: 8.1

APG leading to 3-pointers with TP out of the lineup: 6.1
With TP out: 5.9

I would like to see 3 pt attempts before and after Tony's injury. And also, George Hill adds another three point shooter at the point, so this doesnt account for having more shooters on the court with Tony out. Duh.

This season's version of Manu actually handles the ball more than Parker..Ginobili has been much better than TP this season due to TP's injuries and Manu playing at an unreal level, but they control the ball about the same amount and they get around the same amount of assists in this role..

Huge difference here...Manu is constantly pushing...TP waits for TD to get set, while letting the D get set as well. Watch with your eyes, not numbers.

As for being predictable, ya, I'd say the Spurs become predictable sometimes..does it matter? no, not really..this is the NBA..these teams all have tape and review them before every game..in the playoffs, they study it hard..every team knows what the other team is going to do..this isn't football

The Lakers ran pick and rolls on every other play in last year's playoffs, it doesn't mean the other team can stop it..the NBA is a lot more free-flowing than any other sport, the talent >>>> the play calling....

We are older, and less imposing. Our young studs have yet to be able to take over, and our stars, outside of Manu, can't force the outcome either. We clearly have not been unstoppable in any facet, so I think our gameplan needs to adjust accordingly, from the one that won us championships to one that gets everyone involved.

People are imagining certain things with the Spurs current resurgence..Manu is clearly the primary reason for the Spurs current success..the ball movement isn't much different, the numbers agree..Manu is just playing at an extremely high level, similar to TP last year, and he's carrying the team....

obviously...

Manu's improvement has absolutely nothing to do with Tony Parker....

right again

Manu struggled earlier in the season, even while coming off the bench, for various reasons that he himself touched on....

yes

Jefferson's assisted numbers aren't much different with TP out of the lineup..he's clearly fitting in better with the team and has taken more responsibility with TP out..he's creating some of his own offense and he's rebounding/defending a lot better..TP has nothing to do with that....

WRONG. RJ was uninvolved for the vast majority of the season. PG dictates who gets the ball and where. Moreover, we now see that when RJ gets involved he can at least produce intangibles. So IMO, TP should have gotten him more touches early on. And the system that Pop used, the one that turns everyone who is not TP or TD into bystander, is the real culprit here. TP can get guys comfortable in the game. He didn't really do that with RJ. Right or wrong, the two are tied, and RJ is producing for us even if his points are not there.

The defense has been better with Tony Parker on the floor this season, the numbers agree, so I don't need to speak on that....

How can you even say some stupid like this? We DIDNT EVEN PLAY DEFENSE THIS YEAR UNTIL PARKER HIT THE PINE. Numbers or not. Our team had its head so far up its ass on defense, most spurs fans couldnt bear to watch.

There is a concern with how Pop will use Tony, since Manu is on such a hot streak, so we'll see how Pop utilizes Parker..limiting Manu's touches a little more might hurt, but it could also help avoid more wear and tear on him, so we'll see..that's the only concern though..Parker's style has had nothing to do with the Spurs current hot streak, the numbers agree..

Let Manu do his thing. al this conservation. Your numbers lie.

[benefactor]

I'm calling bull . On Timvp's whole "in defense of Tony" post, the whole analysis, and the entire response (without even reading them all)

Why couldn't you call it from the other thread instead of being an attention ?

[Parker2112]

How is that such a bad thing? It's not like Parker MUST AT ALL TIMES initiate our offense. He did it last year because Manu was banged up and Tim was being saved for later in the year, and he did it as effectively as any point guard in the NBA ever has, really. How many guys under, say, 6'6" shoot 50%?

Parker is deadly because you have to counter him by moving a man over in the lane. He initiates contact, and gets fouls (not as often as he should, but still) and he finds ways to score.

I suspect that if Parker was 100% this year there would be no debating. Spurs fans have perhaps the poorest memories of anyone in the NBA. There were times last year when Tony was in the MVP discussion. This year, he should, according to some, play backup to a average PG.

It's really not Parker's fault that when he drives and kicks, our guys clang shots.

I think Parker should play 1st string shooting guard for the record. I think he should be a weapon but not the QB.

As for clanging shots, I hate living and dying by the three. Thats why I get so frustrated with the three-prong attack. If captain jack were here, that might be different. We dont have heart on the perimeter for the most part.

[ohmwrecker]

Why couldn't you call it from the other thread instead of being an attention ?

I thought he had a pretty plausible explanation for that. I see both sides really . . . isn't everybody here an attention on some level?

[ChumpDumper]

So Manu played the exact same all year, right?

He's been the sole constant in this equation, hasn't he?

[benefactor]

I thought he had a pretty plausible explanation for that.

Not really, but whatever.

[raspsa]

My main beef about the Spurs these past seasons is that I thought they were becoming too predictable. I like what the infusion of new talent has given the team. Its a fine balance that Pop has to achieve, build on what has worked in the past but realize that changes have to be made as well.

[ohmwrecker]

Not really, but whatever.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not condoning it. I don't even agree with the premise, but . . . What was I saying? Oh, yeah . . . I guess I understand where he's coming from. The kid's got moxie, I tell ya!

[Obstructed_View]

What does post count have to do with fandom? Seriously, some people in here need to get off their high horse because they have an 'x' amount of post. Not everyone has the luxury of sitting in front of a computer posting a thousand times a day.

Sorry, but if someone's going to point out that they're a better fan than others for whatever reasons they decide are important, why can't someone else do it? How is post count on this message board any more or less valid than any of the other reasons someone cites when questioning the fandom of a team?

And you sound awfully bitter about the people who post more than you do. Are you sure it isn't important?

[Parker2112]

Why couldn't you call it from the other thread instead of being an attention ?

You can't make a post as long as the OP and expect anyone to give a by page 4. Its not about attention. Its about making my point. My post was everything Timvp told me it needed to be...it was more than a comment. It was a complete argument, making point after point, and something that could prompt a discussion completely different from one that would otherwise happen in Timvp's post. Dont be so simple minded as to believe that just because it was in response to Timvp's post meant it had to be included there.

Is that good enough for you? If not, tell us what cons utes something worthy of a new post?

And then when your done, realize that is your opinion and take it for what its worth.

[FkLA]

Parker fanboys are funny, seriously. Even if Parker were playing like last season this team's offense is still not efficient as it was with George at the point and Manu orchestrating the offense. It isnt a matter of health, its a matter of TP's style of play...a guy like Blair doesnt play much better with Manu because of coincedence and a guy like RJ didnt magically turn his season around out of the blue. Parker simply doesnt look for teammates on a consistant basis, he is a scoring PG and an average orchestrator of the offense. Healthy or not thats his game.

[elbamba]

How exactly does the number of posts on a spurs fan site = how true of a spurs fan a person really is? My family had season tickets since the Spurs came to SA. When I returned to SA I had tickets until I moved away. Since League Pass I have never missed a Spurs game unless it was blacked out. However, I don't have 10,000 posts and I did not post a whole of a lot the past 3 months, I guess this makes me an untrue fan?

[Mel_13]

WRONG. RJ was uninvolved for the vast majority of the season. PG dictates who gets the ball and where. Moreover, we now see that when RJ gets involved he can at least produce intangibles. So IMO, TP should have gotten him more touches early on. And the system that Pop used, the one that turns everyone who is not TP or TD into bystander, is the real culprit here. TP can get guys comfortable in the game. He didn't really do that with RJ. Right or wrong, the two are tied, and RJ is producing for us even if his points are not there.

No, you're wrong.

Think about RJ's three point play in the 4th quarter last night. Manu passed the ball to RJ who was wide open for the corner 3. Earlier this season, he would have taken that shot. Last night he didn't shoot the 3. He drove into the lane and got the basket and the foul.

Tony didn't prevent him from doing the same thing earlier in the season nor did the system. What has changed is RJ's mindset as he's become more assertive and less passive as the season has progressed. Whether he receives that pass in the corner from Tony or Manu, it is his decision whether to shoot or drive.

[FkLA]

RJ himself said playing alongside Manu was similar to his days playing alongside Jason Kidd. Think about that, thats a pretty big compliment and speaks volumes about how comfortable not just RJ is but several other players are with Manu running the show. Parker simply doesnt radiate that, he doesnt look for teammates on a consistant basis...so sure RJ becoming more agressive has helped him play better but that is in large thanks to playing alongside Manu. His confidence looked shot early in the season, I dont think magically and out of the blue he turned that around.

[DesignatedT]

RJ himself said playing alongside Manu was similar to his days playing alongside Jason Kidd. Think about that, thats a pretty big compliment and speaks volumes about how comfortable not just RJ is but several other players are with Manu running the show. Parker simply doesnt radiate that, he doesnt look for teammates on a consistant basis...so sure RJ becoming more agressive has helped him play better but that is in large thanks to playing alongside Manu. His confidence looked shot early in the season, I dont think magically and out of the blue he turned that around.

his move to strictly the 3 position was right around when tony went out also. of course rj wasn't as comfortable out there. pop had him playing the 4 every game. remember?

RJ is a much different player than he was in the beginning of the season and I dont think thats because of Manu... Hes more aggressive, Hes more familiar with the system and He is showing a lot more confidence.

Im not saying that He doesnt play well with manu because he does just as many other players do but he didn't suck in the beginning of the year because of tony. thats just unfair to say.

[Parker2112]

No, you're wrong.

Think about RJ's three point play in the 4th quarter last night. Manu passed the ball to RJ who was wide open for the corner 3. Earlier this season, he would have taken that shot. Last night he didn't shoot the 3. He drove into the lane and got the basket and the foul.

Tony didn't prevent him from doing the same thing earlier in the season nor did the system. What has changed is RJ's mindset as he's become more assertive and less passive as the season has progressed. Whether he receives that pass in the corner from Tony or Manu, it is his decision whether to shoot or drive.

Your missing the logical flow of cause and effect here.

RJ, new and learning the system, never being incorporated by our PG or our coach, and not being able to find a place for himself in the offense equals RJ with doubt and hesitation...who will not drive when he is able.

VS

RJ who gets touches from Manu's ball flow offense, building his confidence and his comfort level on the court means he takes the opportunity without hesitation. Confidence is required in the split second decision-making of pros. Confidence makes players and breaks players. And Manu's tendency to get more people touches breeds confidence, and puts guys like RJ in attack mode vs. on their heels.

You may think its as easy as talent, but most of the pro game is mental. Tons of guys have the talent and never play in the pros. Confidence is key. Manu has helped the confidence of RJ and Blair tons. That is the intangible thing he brings to our team. Parker facilitates high percentage offense and Timmy's game, but guys will only excel with Parker (as he has run it in the past) if they can consistently knock down the jumper. ANd we dont have those types of guys.

[Parker2112]

his move to strictly the 3 position was right around when tony went out also. of course rj wasn't as comfortable out there. pop had him playing the 4 every game. remember?

RJ is a much different player than he was in the beginning of the season and I dont think thats because of Manu... Hes more aggressive, Hes more familiar with the system and He is showing a lot more confidence.

Im not saying that He doesnt play well with manu because he does just as many other players do but he didn't suck in the beginning of the year because of tony. thats just unfair to say.

With Tony, RJ was catching passes behind the three point line. If anyone was driving to the hole, that was tony. RJ as a 3 point specialist is a waste of 10 mil a year.

[DesignatedT]

With Tony, RJ was catching passes behind the three point line. If anyone was driving to the hole, that was tony. RJ as a 3 point specialist is a waste of 10 mil a year.

ok.

[ChumpDumper]

RJ was forbidden from driving when Parker was playing.

Pop had it written down.

[Parker2112]

ok.

RJ was forbidden from driving when Parker was playing.

Pop had it written down.

How are you going to drive when TP has already collapsed the D? You take the shot. RJ is not a great shooter. Pop's scheme was limited by the personell. And you guys suck.

[ChumpDumper]

How are you going to drive when TP has already collapsed the D? You take the shot. RJ is not a great shooter. Pop's scheme was limited by the personell.

Not really.

And you guys suck.

Quality post.

[Mel_13]

Your missing the logical flow of cause and effect here.

RJ, new and learning the system, never being incorporated by our PG or our coach, and not being able to find a place for himself in the offense equals RJ with doubt and hesitation...who will not drive when he is able.

VS

RJ who gets touches from Manu's ball flow offense, building his confidence and his comfort level on the court means he takes the opportunity without hesitation. Confidence is required in the split second decision-making of pros. Confidence makes players and breaks players. And Manu's tendency to get more people touches breeds confidence, and puts guys like RJ in attack mode vs. on their heels.

You may think its as easy as talent, but most of the pro game is mental. Tons of guys have the talent and never play in the pros. Confidence is key. Manu has helped the confidence of RJ and Blair tons. That is the intangible thing he brings to our team. Parker facilitates high percentage offense and Timmy's game, but guys will only excel with Parker (as he has run it in the past) if they can consistently knock down the jumper. ANd we dont have those types of guys.

For the sake of argument, let's assume all this is true. We'll assume that RJ's confidence level is much improved largely as a result of Manu's tendencies.

Going forward, why is RJ less likely to be assertive and aggressive when receiving a pass from Tony than receiving the same pass in the same spot on the court from Manu?

Having gained all this confidence, are you trying to make the case that he will lose it by spending time on the court with Tony?

[GSH]

Bottom line, less Parker has meant more Manu - and Manu has been absolutely kicking ass. It's not that the team is better without Parker on the floor, it's that they are better when Manu is kicking ass.

If having Hill on the floor made the team better, you would see SOMETHING in the stats to indicate it. The team's % of assisted field goals would be better, the team's effective FG% would be better when Hill is on the floor... something. But the numbers aren't there.

Probably the best stats to look at are the team's Effective FG% and Assisted FG%:

When Parker leaves the floor, the team's EFG% stays about the same. When Hill leaves the floor, it actually gets a little bit higher. When Manu leaves the floor, the team EFG% drops quite a bit.

When Hill leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down a small amount. When Parker leaves the floor, it goes up a little bit. When Manu leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down A LOT.

More assists and higher EFG% mean the team is scoring more easily and more efficiently. Hill is doing a good job of filling Parker's shoes. But when Manu is on the floor, he makes everyone better.

If there is any concern about Parker, it's that his FG attempts per 36 minutes are way down this season, but his AST per 36 minutes aren't up. The problem is, you don't know if that's because he isn't distributing the ball as effectively, or because other players are missing too many open shots.

[Parker2112]

For the sake of argument, let's assume all this is true. We'll assume that RJ's confidence level is much improved largely as a result of Manu's tendencies.

Going forward, why is RJ less likely to be assertive and aggressive when receiving a pass from Tony than receiving the same pass in the same spot on the court from Manu?

Having gained all this confidence, are you trying to make the case that he will lose it by spending time on the court with Tony?

Tony and Manu dont facilitate in the same way, so its rarely the same pass. Manu can pass into the teeth of the defense with great results, while Tony is usually passing out of the teeth of the defense, relying on the shooter for results.

I dont think RJ will lose it, but the danger of playing with tony is that players watch tony and wait. Honestly I could swear that there is tons less movement with tony on the court, which would have to be by design. Thats why I say Pop's gameplan has been our shortcoming this year.