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I definitely agree that West and maybe even Wilt? are ahead of Shaq in LA history.
But Magic/Kareem/Kobe is not even a question.
No No NO, Magic is debatable, probably even better. But Shaq is better than those other 2.
I definitely agree that West and maybe even Wilt? are ahead of Shaq in LA history.
But Magic/Kareem/Kobe is not even a question.
Not even really close.
Not going to argue with you either.
Heh, saying is fun isn't it?
you should know
I probably agree that he needs Kobe's approval, what I don't agree with is him saying Phil Jackson begged to come back. I think LA wanted Phil back.
Magic is the greatest Laker, bar none.
I love Kareem, but his peak years were spent with the Bucks.
Kobe. Yeah, right.
Bottom line is that Shaq was the best player on the 3 straight championships teams, putting up ridiculous numbers, sending coaches scrambling for a desperation gameplan in hopes of stopping him, and earning 3 Finals MVPs. His resume is better than any of the aforementioned players besides Magic.
And I hated that asshole when he was with the Lakers. y, classless, always talking and showing little respect to his opponents. Back then, I liked when Kobe would steal a little bit of his thunder. Got so tired of "most dominant ever" and the legion of Laker fans saying, "Wait until Shaq gets in shape and motivated." "Ain't no one stopping Shaq." etc, etc.
But time has allowed me to be objective and he indeed is the second GLOAT, no matter how much Kobe lovers want it to be the other way.
Shaq was great for the first three quarters of an important game but couldn't be relied on to do anything when the game was on the line.
I know you have me on ignore, but who gives a .
The game is on the line the WHOLE ing game. How many times has a great first quarter been the reason a team won the game? Or a great second quarter? this selective memory bull . "The 4th is when it counts." To my knowledge, points are worth exactly the same in the 1st quarter as they are in the 4th quarter.
Just another weakass argument Kobe lovers use to try and downplay Shaq's contributions to the Lakers.
Kobe has had a decade long of dominance with LA and has brought LA 4 les...and is STILL counting.
If you really think Shaq has had more of an impact in LA Laker history you need your ing head examined.
Kareem won 5 ing les with LA.
Jesus christ. Did any of you ers see some of the 80's finals games against Boston?
Kareem and Magic broke the ing Boston curse for us.
MAGIC mainly but him and the Cap WERE SHOWTIME. They ing took LA by storm.
I'm 99% sure you idiots arguing in favor of Shaq were even in LA at the time showtime was here...
When will Shaq retire: Not soon enough.
Whose jersey will he wear: Whoever s s out the most money.
I am not tyring to downplay Shaq during the 3 peat. He was unreal. He was the MDE sans Wilt.
Doesn't mean Kobe didn't have a WHOLE lot to do with it.
And I think ALL la fans realize what shaq did for us...but Jerry Buss does not forget.
I agree with DOK re. Shaq kissing the Lakers ass all last year. I think he did that for 2 reasons:
1) Jersey retired
2) wants to play in LA next year and coattail Kobe to more les.
Even if you love Kobe there's no denying Shaq's 3-peat Finals MVPs. Impressive even if its a player you despise and definitely impressive enough to hang a god damn jersey.
Although if Shaq gets his fifth ring winning against LA this year it might be a longer wait...
He was more dominant than Wilt when you take into account all Wilt did was dominate honkies 5 inches shorter than he was.
Again, leaving Shaq out of the equation. 3 of those les were "brought" when Shaq was the best player on the team.
Kobe, as team leader and the best player, has won one le. I don't understand how you can argue with the results and stats that clearly show Shaq ahead of Kobe. 3 Finals MVPs to 1. Best player on 3 Championship teams. Much, much, much better playoff numbers. I know you Kobe fans hate PER because it doesn't always render Kobe in the best light, but Shaq's playoff PER with the Lakers crushes Kobe's.
Now if you're talking about cultural impact, fan involvement, popularity, then Kobe is indeed a "greater Laker" than Shaq, as is Kareem. But if we're talking about on the court performance, only Magic has been better in a Laker uniform.
Don't let the bitterness of how Shaq left LA color your objectivity.
DoK said Wilt played against whiteboys, not me.
It's not hate. I'm just going by the facts. Yep, PER, when it's pretty damn ironclad. The various top ten lists thrown about correlate very strongly with PER. Jordan has the highest of all time and is regarded as the best player of all time. Sure there's some flaws (it's biased against assists, which Hollinger admits), but it does tend to tell a story of player's skill and impact.
Shaq went through Duncan and Robinson twice on the way to the 3 peat. And those two in their relative prime were one of the best 4/5 combos to ever step foot on a basketball court. He was dealing with them while Kobe was torching the likes of Danny Ferry, Steve Smith, and Terry Porter. Tell me who had the tougher matchup there? I could easily state "who was Kobe playing against?" All the best wing players during that era were on suckass teams.
And how has Shaq never been a better player than Kobe? Better playoff stats (even if we don't go by PER), more Finals MVPs, more championships as the consensus best player on the team. I agree that Kareem in his prime was better than Shaq ever was, but Kareem's peak years were with the Bucks, not the Lakers. He was still awesome with Showtime, but 3 peat Shaq was better than Showtime Kareem.
What argument do you actually have that Kobe is a better on court Laker than Shaq?
I won't argue with you if you attribute other things to what makes a great Laker (at ude, popularity, cultural impact, longevity with the team, etc), but for pure on court performance, Kobe was not better than Shaq.
LOL PER is ironclad ...midnightpulp you lost me there ...
Top playoff PER (the real season) min. 100 games played (eliminates the Wades and Stoudemires whose sample sizes are way too small):
1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2 Shaquille O'Neal 26.17
3 Tim Duncan 25.74
4 Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
5 Dirk Nowitzki 24.65
6 Charles Barkley* 24.18
7 Jerry West* 23.06
8 David Robinson* 23.02
9 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
10 Magic Johnson* 22.95
11 Wilt Chamberlain* 22.77
12 Kobe Bryant 21.94
13 Elgin Baylor* 21.83
14 Larry Bird* 21.41
When we list our top tens in these forums and such, it usually looks something like this:
MJ
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Duncan/Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe/Oscar/West
Maybe ironclad is too strong a word, but there is a strong correlation between fan and expert opinion and what the stats tell us, you can't deny that. Now of course there's flaws. Magic and Bird are lower on the list because PER is somewhat biased against assists and Kareem places low because he's had such a long career, his later lower numbers bringing down his overall average. Dirk is quite high, but he also has the least amount games played and if 06 and 07 went differently with the Mavs winning back-to-back, we'd likely be placing Dirk in the top ten.
PER also doesn't factor in defense. But for the most part, it's a valid tool to use in conjunction with observation.
Would you rather all discussions be distilled down to "I saw him play and I say he's the greatest!"
Tell me your issue with PER?
And don't say because it doesn't factor in intangibles, I realize that, which is why we can adjust the list and shuffle the players around accordingly.
His jersey will be going up ........
can't deny what he's done on the floor especially in Purple and Gold. If Wilt's number in up based on what he has accomplished as a Laker, Shaquille's will definitely go up......
Yeah, Shaquille did drop the line "Pay Me, MF" and the classic "Mickey Arison is the best owner".
Without Shaquille, the Lakers do not win one of those les. Spurs would probably be going for a five peat or 4 outta five with Sacramento getting the other.
Doc Buss will take the high road like he always does and hang up 34.
That's the thing. Doc Buss isn't cold except on the poker table. Dude is too busy popping blue pills and banging 22 year old skanks.
Listen up guys.
I AM NOT DENYING THE FACT THAT SHAQ GOT US 3 RINGS. Im disputing the fact that Jerry Buss HAS to retire him as a Laker.
Anyone who simply says "Shaq got us 3 rings, he's gonna retire here" is totally ignoring the fact that Jerry Buss does not like Shaq and left the team in a bitter situation.
It's true he doesn't have to retire it. But what would that really say about Doc Buss?? That he's a bitter old man?? If anything, Bean's would probably go up before Shaquille's and Doc Buss doesn't have to raise it up there but when it all said and done, it will be retired. Especially if dude has been elected to the Hall of Fame. If he's got his HOF plaque and ring, and his jersey still isn't hanging up in Staples, mostly everyone will come down on Doc Buss.
We'll see. I don't think anyone will fault him if he does retire his number. We'll see how Shaq plays his card if the Cavs win a le.
He'll more than likely take the high road and won't say nothing but "I'm happy - mumble mumble mumble mumble - chippies - mumble mumble mumble mumble - food - mumble mumble mumble mumble - five rings - mumble mumble mumble mumble.
I think the fat man has grown up as well. , we know if Shaquille had been injured while playing for the Lakers, we'd be more nervous than a in church about him going over 380. Dude came back lean and in great shape. Part of the Fat Man finally gets it.
lol, of course:
The straws Kobefan grasps at to tear Shaq down in an attempt to prop Kobe up are hilarious.
He might have had one of the most dominant playoff runs in NBA history from 2000-2002, but god dammit he wasn't clutch
Miami retired Jordan's number.
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