What points?
That's your opinion. Which I don't agree with.
In my opinion you have used the "lack" of Duncan's contemporaries but have ignored Olajuwon's.
You could, but it applies to Duncan much more than Olajuwon. Like I said before, you can consider maybe 4 of Olajuwon's 9 defensive teams to be "gimmes". But on that note, about 6 of Duncan's 8 are "gimmes" as well.
So like I said, Olajuwon's contemporaries were of a higher caliber than Duncan's.
Yet this superior positional defense that renders steals and blocks irrelevant wasn't capable of yielding a single DPOY.
Hmm.............
That is your opinion chief. Not a fact.
I don't agree with that.
Yet those Defensive Player of the Year awards was still 1 NBA MVP, 1 NBA FINALS MVP and 2 rings short...
And that superior positional defense by him was the culprit and backbone of 4 championships and a reason why the Spurs were top 5 defensive team in the league every year in a 10 year span.
I can keep going you know.
Your point about the minutes played affecting statistical totals.
What points?
That's your opinion. Which I don't agree with.
In my opinion you have used the "lack" of Duncan's contemporaries but have ignored Olajuwon's.
Your point that Duncan's all-nba teams at F equates to all-nba teams at C.
Your point that the presence of SFs makes it harder for a PF to be selected for the F position on the all-defensive team.
Your point that Duncan's contemporaries (Garnett, Pippen, Malone, Sheed, Bowen, Artest, Kirlenko) to Mark Eaton. If I'm not mistaken, the total number of DPOYs that your list has equals the number that Eaton alone has.
Your point that regular season totals is a better statistical sample for gauging who has a better prime.
Your point that Olajuwon was a mediocre regular season player.
Your point that steals isn't an important part of defense.
Your point that the postseason isn't more important than the regular season.
Your point that more championships means he's a better player.
And you'd be wrong. Ever heard of the phrase "golden era of centers"?
Obviously you can keep going...you're just repeating arguments that I've already addressed.
I'm going to bed now. If you think of an original argument that hasn't already ben refuted, I'll address it in the morning.
No..you didn't...I still believe it's a wash
No...I don't agree
That wasn't me. Now you're getting me confused with someone else.
No....That wasn't me again.
No I said steals wasn't nearly as important as positional defense for a post player.
So again you fail.
No that wasn't me again. Getting me confused with other people doesn't help your argument sir.
No wrong again.
NBA MVP's are. Which Duncan has one more than Olajuwon. And yes the number of times a superstar leads a team to the Finals does play a factor in who's the better player. In Duncan and Olajuwon's case they were both the leaders on both ends offensively and defensively of their teams throughout their first 12 years in the league, where Duncan lead his team to two more championships.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 05-25-2010 at 04:09 AM.
Yeah and that had just started in 1993 and 1994 when O'Neal, Mutombo and Mourning were rookies. The compe ion of the golden era didn't start til Olajuwon was in his 9th year.
The era that consisted of Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, O'Neal, Mutombo, Mourning really started in 94-95, (not counting rookie seasons)
This golden era" lasted around 3-4 seasons 1994-1997, if your trying to really narrow the years down when all of those centers were in their prime.
Don't credit those 4 seasons for the 13 years Olajuwon was relevant in the league.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 05-25-2010 at 04:29 AM.
Manu, it looks like I did confuse several of your points with another poster's. Sorry, I guess it was too late for me. Continuing,
But I'm getting annoyed with you now. You have absolutely no arguments. I use logic to support my assertions and your only response is, "no, I don't agree."
Sorry, but if you disagree yet are unable to logically prove me wrong, then that means you're wrong.
And in regards to your positional defense argument, you're grossly overestimating its importance if you're using it to mitigate Duncan's pedestrian block/steals numbers. You can also look at defensive win shares. In Duncan's prime, his DWS range from 6.8-7.2 Olajuwon's ranges from 5.6-8.7. So although Duncan was consistently great, there were years when Olajuwon was simply better (and worse).
Additionally, the ability to steal the ball is important for all positions, including post positions. I thought this was obvious. I hope you're intentionally devaluing b/c Duncan had low steal numbers since the alternative would be that you're ignorant.
At some point, you need to look at the defensive metrics and accolades in favor of Olajuwon and rethink your position.
And in regards to your belief that the number of MVP's is a determination of greatness, do you believe that Nash is a greater player than Kobe?
One of your problems is that your not familiar with Rockets history. You're giving Duncan credit for his team's success and crediting Olajuwon for the Rockets' failures. Duncan had the luxury of joining an championship caliber team as soon as he came into the league. Olajuwon had a similar advantage, but his teamates were derailed through injuries (Sampson) and drugs (Wiggins, Lloyd, Lucas).
And Olajuwon's contemporaries were more than Ewing, Mourning, Robinson, Mutombo, and Shaq. Don't forget Smits. Or Daugherty. Or Duckworth. Or Parish. Or Eaton.
Duncan didn't receive the award but does that mean Camby>Duncan on D? Duncan was a better defender than Hakeem. The league back then was faster paced. More boards and blocks. Centers were allowed to foul more often with no calls. Duncan's team D was far better than Hakeeems. Hakeem wasn't as good on one on one D either. He was a better shot blocker because he was a bit quicker and more athletic. Duncan was a bit heavier. Hakeem had to battle good centers like Ewing and DROB, he also had to battle tall stiffs. From centers to PF's. Duncan played in an era were it was harder for a big man. He also played in a whole different system. Slow, grinding and methodical. So save your stats, specially steals. Stockton is the greatest thief in history but I don't think he ever made a first team on D. Hakeem was versatile as but I compare his D to KG. Hakeem is in my top 10 but a couple spots below Tim.
For about 100 years a player's true measure has always been winning championships. Only when it's Tim Duncan does that not matter. He has 4 rings as the man only Jordan has more as the man.
Hakeem played in an easier era. There's a reason players were averaging sick stats. ing nostalgia makes people blind.
There's no point in discussing the matter with you. Your bias against Duncan overrides any objectivity you might be capable of and you'll simply find excuses against any argument I might present to you.
For all those saying Duncan is better than Olajuwon, then you're saying that Duncan is better than the Admiral, David Robinson. The League MVP picked over Hakeem. From which Hakeem was really pissed off for being slighted and proceeded in the next matchup between DRob and Hakeem, to completely dismantal the Admiral.
I don't think Duncan is even better than a prime David Robinson.
Duncan is better than Robinson (although I suspect Luva will disagree. The Admiral used to dunk the ball real hard, which is the kind of thing he associates with greatness). What does that have to do with anything?
Oh, and his stats prove otherwise of your implied otherwise.
I brought up defensive win shares in an earlier post. This is relevant since DWS adjusts for pace. Also, Duncan's DWS is consistently much higher than Camby's. Therefore, even though Camby won multiple DPOY, you can make a valid argument that Duncan was a better defender.
However, in Olajuwon's best defensive years, his DWS is much higher than Duncan's, and if you couple that with the fact that Olajuwon did win DPOY and Duncan didn't, it makes a compelling argument for Olajuwon being a superior defender.
So if Olajuwon had inferior team D and was an inferior one on one defender, why are his block numbers so superior to Duncan's?
Your opinions contradict each other.
Tall stiffs? Like Parish? Or Smits? Those guys would dominate in today's game. Yao is the definition of a tall stiff, but when healthy, he's the best center in the game.
Today's game is much softer than it was 20 years ago. Remember McHale's clothesline on Rambis? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was called a regular foul.
In today's game, that'd be an ejection, fine, and multiple game suspension.
I would love for you to give a logical explanation for this.
And how do you think the Rockets played? They threw the ball into Olajuwon in the post and let him go one on one. If he was doubled, he'd kick it out for an open shot from a teammate. Thats as slow, grinding, and methodical as you can get.
He was always behind Jordan, Dumars, Payton, and Robertson. They were better overall defenders. And yes, Stockton has the most steals all-time, but that's more of testament to his consistency and longetivity. Are you aware that there were only two years where he led the league in steals?
That's b/c you're a Spurs fan. In his prime, Olajuwon could do everything Duncan could do and more.
Championships are a team effort. This thread is about individual players and their primes.
A 40 year old Michael Jordan was able to average 20 ppg in Duncan's era.
I'm not arguing that. I feel peak Hakeem is the best basketball player I've personally seen.
I just don't understand your bias against Duncan. The "stats" prove he's a great basketball player, something you refuse to acknowledge. Duncan has the 4th highest all time playoff PER (min 100 games played). And PER is simply lumping together all those hard stats, adjusting it for pace, and arriving at a number. I mean, would you really rather play the game of "well, he averaged more points." "But his FG was higher!" "Yeah, but he averaged more blocks." "But he averaged more rebounds." On and on and on.
Don't really understand your issue with the metric. Of course it isn't the end point in evaluating a player, but it's useful for cutting to the chase when comparing players statistically.
Olajuwon and Duncan have the same career playoff PER. This actually favors Olajuwon since his decline has already been factored into his PER.
As Duncan ages, his PER will decline which will pull down his career average.
Unless the Spurs don't make the playoffs anymore...
Sons even though I used to fancy PER I grow tired of it too. I mean, PER says Andrew ing Glassnum is a productive player. PER said CP3 was the 2nd best player in the league last year... jeez... so many holes. It doesn't factor defensive value of players either.
Not a bad stat, but I don't like bringing it up in convo anymore.
Duncan's probably the 3rd best low-post player behind Kareem and Hakeem. So yeah, being the 3rd best post player qualifies as having a "great" lowpost game. Even if you put McHale, Shaq, and Wilt in front, being the 6th best at something still qualifies as "great."
Duncan has been regarded as one of the best passing bigs of all time. Bill Russell has acknowledged this. It's also well acknowledged that he's one of the best defenders of all time, especially help and paint defense. You keep bringing up "well, he doesn't guard the other team's best post-player." Why should he? Teams don't do that anymore so they don't risk getting their own in foul trouble. Kobe won't guard the other team's best perimeter player until crunch time. Why wear out your best offensive weapon and put him at risk?
Duncan's a great rebounder. 17th all time rpg in the playoffs. Ahead of KG, Shaq, Malone, Hakeem, etc.
Head-to-head matchups. Go to basketball-reference and compare Duncan head to head to other premier bigs in his era. He out performs all of them and has a winning record against all of them but Shaq.
I know what you want to see on Duncan's stat lines. Gaudy PPG, like Karl "I Can't Shoot 50% in the Playoffs" Malone. Pop's system is much too slow and deliberate for any one player to really go wild on a per game basis. Put Duncan in the triangle, and he averages 25 for his career. In Pop's system, Duncan's essentially the point guard. There's a reason many Spur players have led the league or been near the top in 3 pt FG%. Because of Duncan, the double teams he draws, and his passing ability. And you see how that 3 point shooting has suffered since Duncan's decline, since he doesn't command the attention he once did?
What more do you need? Him to travel back in time and play against Kareem and bring home a few championships?
Someone said Duncan was unguardable from 99-05. That simply isn't true. He was quite guardable in the series that I listed, and it's just a "coincidence" that quality defenders with size were on him that series (a Laker with Shaq as support and the Wallace boys). Is the question not who would best who at their peak? If the pivots from 94/95 couldn't stop a peak Hakeem then I don't think Duncan could either. If Horry/Shaq or the Wallaces could make him struggle then I like Hakeems chances of slowing him down, at least more than his chances of stopping Hakeem. It's not like we didn't see Dream do this to elite centers on the way to his two les.
And I'm laughing at someone trying to compare All D selections when there was one slot for Hakeem, since he was a center, and two for Duncan since he is a PF. And the dudes besting out Hakeem, mainly Robinson, I don't see Duncan making squads over him.
For all those downplaying Duncan's defensive prowess, and the importance of positional defense....
Look at the Spurs' opponents FG%, and opponents PPG from 1999-2005...
Record setting defense is what you'll find.
All this despite several league-driven rule changes aimed at making the Spurs' defensive schemes less effective.
LOL you do know Hakeem had a lot of help guarding DROB in the 95 series, right? It's Duckworth btw. Duckworth, seriously? LOL Kareem usually dominated Hakeem, and that's an ancient Kareem. Shaq couldn't guard Tim. McHale would be abused by Tim. And Robinson himself said Tim was a far greater player than himself ever was. Malone was in the east when Hakeem came into the league and was about a 10 year vet already. Ewing was always a level below DROB and Hakeem. No doubt that era was easier. You had multiple players averaging 30 points. 14 rebounds and 4 blocks as well. Why is that? Teams used to average 105 points like it was nothing. Some teams even averaged more than 110 multiple seasons. You're a Rockets fan so I know you got your reasons, but...
Now you're just trolling. Duncan won a ring in 03 by himself practically. Robinson himself has said tim was a better player.
I bet you wear a Kobe jersey but you suck at playing basketball. I hate kids like you.
Same Horry who helped guarding DROB in the 95 series. You're hating. Horry was a great defender. Horry was abused by Duncan BTW.
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