NOW can we have funds for renewable energy?

[Wild Cobra]

I read his statement as what it was: no matter how much evidence anyone presents, it will never be enough to convince WC. which is BS.

Bull .

You're just not smart enough to give me information that will change my mind.

Find me credible information, and I will see it for what it is. I just haven't seen anything credible yet.

[RandomGuy]

I haven't ignored it at all. There is not solid evidence.

Seriously, again...

Why wouldn't the energy companies invest more in green energy, to insure future profits, if your point was true?

In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

The evidence supporting oil depletion is very solid.

You have yet to present any evidence whatsoever showing that it isn't.

[RandomGuy]

Bull .

You're just not smart enough to give me information that will change my mind.

Find me credible information, and I will see it for what it is. I just haven't seen anything credible yet.

You obviously haven't bothered reading any of the copious links I have provided.

The only reason you haven't seen anything credible has more to do with your laziness than your intelligence.

[Wild Cobra]

The evidence supporting oil depletion is very solid.

No it isn't.

You have yet to present any evidence whatsoever showing that it isn't.

The fact the curve points continue to change as time passes is good enough for me.

In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

How can you assume that applies all the time?

God... that's ridiculous!

[Wild Cobra]

You obviously haven't bothered reading any of the copious links I have provided.

The only reason you haven't seen anything credible has more to do with your laziness than your intelligence.

Try showing me something credible, with a summary showing you understand it. Point me to the parts of a link instead of whole links.

[RandomGuy]

Try showing me something credible, with a summary showing you understand it. Point me to the parts of a link instead of whole links.

I have done both already. I see little need to spend my time presenting you with information you will not read.

But, since I like to think I am fair, will take about 10 minutes of my time to try and satisfy your request.

[Wild Cobra]

I have done both already. I see little need to spend my time presenting you with information you will not read.

But, since I like to think I am fair, will take about 10 minutes of my time to try and satisfy your request.

Still don't see one yet.

Have to get some sleep before going to work tonight. Take your time, I won't get to it till morning.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156620

This was a thread where I posted pretty much the complete article outlining some of the effects.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...0&postcount=83

Here is where I outline some current production figures, in this thread, I might add.

And that is the 10 minutes I alloted.

For the rest of it, you will ahve to do your own research WC. I do not have the time to do your research for you at the moment. Perhaps some other time.

[RandomGuy]

Try showing me something credible, with a summary showing you understand it. Point me to the parts of a link instead of whole links.

The first concept is the Energy Return on Investment (EROI)

It takes energy to get energy. In the early phases of US oil discovery and exploitation it was estimated that one barrel of oil yielded 100. (Cleveland 2005)

Today, the cir stances are different, as nearly all of the easy-to-find and easy-to-produce oil wells have been found and produced. For example, Ghawar, the world’s biggest oil field, was discovered in 1948, and even with all of the advances in seismic technology over the past 60 years, nary an oil well of nearly the same magnitude has been found.

High return:


Low return:


http://netenergy.theoildrum.com/node/6545

If most of your energy goes back into getting the next 100 units of energy, you have to consume a much larger large amount of energy to provide an equivalent amount of "free energy" to a society so that it can use that free energy for other things, like say, growing food.

Do you accept and understand this concept, WC?

[boutons_deux]

"It takes energy to get energy"

Situation MUCH WORSE (than only energy in/out/lost) when TOTAL COST OF EXTRACTION is accounted for. For shale gas/fracking, shale oil, coal, the cost in polluted water, land, air must be figured in.

If America were a responsible, mature adult rather than greedy, whiny, self-centered, gimme-gimme-gimme 2-year-old, it would realize and admit that the era of cheap energy is over.

[Parker2112]

"It takes energy to get energy"

Situation MUCH WORSE (than only energy in/out/lost) when TOTAL COST OF EXTRACTION is accounted for. For shale gas/fracking, shale oil, coal, the cost in polluted water, land, air must be figured in.

If America were a responsible, mature adult rather than greedy, whiny, self-centered, gimme-gimme-gimme 2-year-old, it would realize and admit that the era of cheap energy is over.

agreed. but this country is full of sheep (who have been led to believe that they deserve every modern convenience, by big corps/government), sheep who are never intended to see the actual cost (that boutons speaks of), because that would potentially sever the extreme profit margins that big oil is currently seeing.

the sheep are wearing blinders by design.

[Wild Cobra]

TMI Random

I ask for quotes within article, and your own words in a summary to show you understand, and you give me almost nothing. I was looking forward to a few examples to be tasked with. You disappoint me.

Yes, I understand the EROI concept. So?

I'm not going to wast my time reading several thousand words finding relevance in past threads here, or threads on another board.

[MannyIsGod]

Jesus Christ no one on this board makes me wish I could punch them as much as you WC. No one. Congrats, most people here don't crawl under my skin but you do it with no effort.

[Wild Cobra]

Jesus Christ no one on this board makes me wish I could punch them as much as you WC. No one. Congrats, most people here don't crawl under my skin but you do it with no effort.

Glad I can provide such a service. But please, I don't understand how I made you so made. please let me know, so I can do it better.

Seriously though. I asked Random for his argument against mine with simple qualifiers:

Try showing me something credible, with a summary showing you understand it. Point me to the parts of a link instead of whole links.

If he was a valid point, why can't he quote the valid part of a link, and supply the link. Supply a link with thousands of words, no summary... That's a cheap lawyers trick.

[Wild Cobra]

If most of your energy goes back into getting the next 100 units of energy, you have to consume a much larger large amount of energy to provide an equivalent amount of "free energy" to a society so that it can use that free energy for other things, like say, growing food.

Do you accept and understand this concept, WC?

Yes, I accept and agree with the concept.

Care to show us how modern drilling compares to something like hydrogen, or ethanol?

Look. I agree oil gets more and more energy intensive to find. I don't think anyone disagrees with it. Energy is not the only cost. Even with our more expensive methods of getting oil, it's cheaper than large scale wind, solar, etc. Then when it comes to making something usable for transportation, options get even more elaborate and costly.

Do you want to not only put the lower class out of the ability to own a car, but the middle class as well?

Consider the cost without subsidies, because we cannot subsidize everyone.

[Wild Cobra]

Jesus Christ no one on this board makes me wish I could punch them as much as you WC. No one. Congrats, most people here don't crawl under my skin but you do it with no effort.

Just smite me my lord.

[MannyIsGod]

More than half new power in U.S., EU is green: study


More than half new power in U.S., EU is green: study Six 1.5-megawatt wind turbines are pictured at work at the Exelon-Community Energy Wind Farm at Somerset, Pennsylvania, August 10, 2008. REUTERS/Stelios Varias


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LONDON (Reuters) - More than half of all new electricity capacity added in the United States and Europe last year was from renewable power such as wind and solar, a body backed by the International Energy Agency and the UN reported.
Last year was also a record year for the amount of new green power added to the grid, partly a result of shifting deployment and manufacture to emerging economies including Brazil, India and China, from flagging developed countries.
"In 2009, China produced 40 percent of the world's solar PV supply, 30 percent of the world's wind turbines, up from 10 percent in 2007," REN21, or the Renewable Energy Policy Network for the 21st Century, said in a report on Thursday.
REN21, launched in 2005, is supported by the International Energy Agency (IEA), which advises 28 industrialized countries -- and by the United Nations Environment Programme.
Of an extra 80 gigawatts (GW) of new renewable power capacity added worldwide, China added 37 GW, more than any other country, said the study, led "Renewables 2010, Global Status Report."
Despite the impact of the financial crisis and lower oil prices, renewable capacity grew at rates close to those in previous years, including solar photovoltaic (PV) power at 53 percent and wind power at 32 percent, the report said.
Grid-connected solar PV power had grown by an average of 60 percent every year for the past decade, increasing 100-fold since 2000.
That boom has been largely on the back of support in European countries, where a recent pullback following recession has raised investor jitters. But the wind and solar sectors were still poised for a record year in 2010, operators and investors say.
While China is making great strides in renewable energy deployment, its carbon emissions also accelerated in 2009 -- placing it further ahead as the world's top emitter of the main greenhouse gas blamed for climate change.

[Wild Cobra]

Nice Hype Manny.

Yes, China has added so much renewable power. However, most was hydroelectric. We have already pretty much built already developed the hydro projects available to us.

Would the destruction of such ecology ever be allowed to make dams today in the USA like they did in Chine over this last decade?

[MannyIsGod]

LONDON (Reuters) - More than half of all new electricity capacity added in the United States and Europe last year was from renewable power such as wind and solar, a body backed by the International Energy Agency and the UN reported.

[Drachen]

Nice Hype Manny.

Yes, China has added so much renewable power. However, most was hydroelectric. We have already pretty much built already developed the hydro projects available to us.

Would the destruction of such ecology ever be allowed to make dams today in the USA like they did in Chine over this last decade?

They are adding 12 Gw of capacity through wind energy every year.

[Wild Cobra]

They are adding 12 Gw of capacity through wind energy every year.

That's good then. Is that peak, or average estimates?

[Drachen]

That's good then. Is that peak, or average estimates?

I will be honest here, the articles I am reading don't make this clear. They will reach their 2020 goal of 30 Gw of generating capacity (the way this is worded, I would say peak) this year. They may have already since they are putting a new 1.5 Mw turbine in every hour.

Ingenuity, foresight, strange that it is ok that the Chinese want to slowly steal our national traits and it is ok. Maybe its what we put up as collateral for the debt we owe them.

Used to be: lets go grab our future.
Now its: I want to stay in the present until the future drags me away kicking and screaming.

[Wild Cobra]

I will be honest here, the articles I am reading don't make this clear. They will reach their 2020 goal of 30 Gw of generating capacity (the way this is worded, I would say peak) this year. They may have already since they are putting a new 1.5 Mw turbine in every hour.

Ingenuity, foresight, strange that it is ok that the Chinese want to slowly steal our national traits and it is ok. Maybe its what we put up as collateral for the debt we owe them.

Well, they have so much of our money, they can afford to do expensive projects.

I just wish they would clean up their coal burning plants.

[admiralsnackbar]

That's good then. Is that peak, or average estimates?

Wouldn't it have to be average? Nothing runs at peak all year long.

[Wild Cobra]

Wouldn't it have to be average? Nothing runs at peak all year long.

It all depends on the impression the author of the story wants to imply. I think it would have been specified if it was average.

Average solar power of only about 35% of peak. Wind power, depends on the normal flows, but the wind does not always blow.