Would be an odd "requirement" to be on that level when a player not on that level can and has achieved it. And, I will stress the fact that it's an accomplishment that represents only one season. A player can just have an unbelievable season where he puts it all together, things just bounce the right way for him, some lucky breaks or cir stances (as I explain with Willis Reed below), but the rest of that player's career is less than the greatness of that one season. Doing it multiple times has a stronger case, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
I would liken it to the triple crown in MLB baseball. A player can have a season for the ages, win the triple crown, but that doesn't necessarily mean that player is one of the best of the bests. A couple triple crown winners aren't even in the baseball Hall of Fame. And the two players considered the best of all time, Babe Ruth and Willy Mays, didn't accomplish the feat.
It's an unbelievable thing to win League MVP and Finals MVP in the same season. But it does take help from your team to actually get to the Finals to have a chance at it. It relies on teammates and some luck. Certainly shouldn't be a requirement to be considered the "best of the best," although so far it seems the best of the best have done it.
I know people sometimes like to discredit some of the MVPs of recent years, like Nash and Nowitkzki and even Kobe. But Willis Reed's League MVP definitely has some serious qualifiers and disclaimers. You mention him winning the League MVP in Wilt's "renaissance season" is somewhat confusing. In the 1969-70 NBA season, Wilt only played in 12 games in the regular season. He injured his knee and sat out most of the year. Wilt probably would have won his 5th League MVP that season. Also important to note is that Bill Russell had retired after the 1968-69 season, so technically Willis Reed didn't beat out either of those guys for that 1970 League MVP.
Regardless, still an amazing season for Reed.
Fair enough points, however again, I never said it was the "only thing" that puts somebody on that list..I realize it's only one season, but it doesn't really take away anything for me, I still view it as a season where the most possible dominance was displayed..
As for the bolded part, that's part of the reason I made this thread, I don't think it's a coincidence as to whom is on the list..
I was talking about the Finals MVP and their head-to-head matchup. Didn't word it clearly. The "renaissance" mention was a mistaken comment from a passing glance at Wilt's stats from the season/postseason. Looked at minutes played, didn't look at games. Should have. Clearly that injury changes the significance of posting some of his better seasonal averages in a few years.
Your point was one must win to be successful and take the honor. Albeit one exception, it stands on contradiction of your assertion.
And, if you'd notice, nobody is trying to diminish the legacies of Lakers. Two were mentioned in the initial post. , I even defending the comparisons since the initial inquiry seemed to be asking if this great feat made a player even greater than those greats without it.
Hows abouts you settle down and realize it's not Laker fans vs. the World.
And, despite asking me a real question, I'm not dumb enough to think anything I say one way or the other will be accepted. If you really care, ask again. But I doubt you do.
Duncan also takes plays and games off (under Pops Supervision) whereas Kobe plays through tiredness, injuries, and pain. At the end of the day it's simple...Duncan won 4 rings and he's done. Kobe won 5 and he's still going strong. So i will allow the Spurs fans to reminisce because in essence all they're really saying is thanks Tim for the memories and goodbye. Spurs will never sniff another le in our lifetime. Their future also looks bleak with regards to players. They tanked got Duncan and their les now it's a slow demise...Me Imma get my popcorn ready and watch this collapse unfold to completion.
I would agree that there's an additional level of eliteness one achieves as a great player when said player is the leader of back-to-back Champions.I could have added the exception in my previous post. But you forced me to play my ace of spade before I wanted to. The fact that Logo won the award as a loser shows that the award is bull to begin with. The fact that the criteria to win the award changes from generation to generation also shows that the award is bull . les trumps everything. If you are the leader of the team that won the le, then nothing else is a greater accomplishment... unless you defend that le.
But what do I know. I'm just a leless in' Ofer...
You shouldn't assume that I don't understand the significance of something just because I haven't/never experienced one. I don't have nor have I experienced $1,000,000. Doesn't mean I don't understand how such would change things. My lackings make me appreciate such even more, so ya know.
I'm not fan of fun (so my fandom extends beyond the Nash era). I'm a fan of winning. It's just my effin' curse to be born in Phoenix and grow up watching Kevin Johnson, whom Chick Hearn once referred to as "one of the greatest PGs to ever play the game".
I don't take this , as in the message board banter anywhere. But have I lost sleep over my fandom's failings? you ferakin' bet. It's what makes me a true fan. And if 0-fer ever bothered me, I got over it a decade ago, since that's how long I've seen the countdown by Cubby go.
Don't take this to sleep with you, man. I just like talking .
It was early 30's when I first saw him post in a Suns forum on ESPN.com.
Chew on this:
Oh , Tim Duncan won a popularity contest. I bet he won that contest because he is so exciting for people to watch. It is either that or he was so dominate that they could not refuse giving him the regular season mvp or the nba would look like a joke. You just boosted the greatness of duncan up by calling the regular season mvp a popularity contest. That is one contest duncan would not win. So he gave the people no choice two times.
The drive for back to back to back to back premature playoff exits
You tried to insult the spurs because my statement was full of truth. You could disagree with anything I said because I am right. Next time just say "you are right nathan89". I already made one of you laker fans say "your right and I am wrong" now you should do the same.
What a terrible argument..
If Durant undeservedly wins MVP, then you can talk..
He doesn't need to.
What I do know is that Kobe is sitting on 25,790 career points for # 12 on the NBA all time list. After this season he will leap frog basically 6 spots to sit comfortably in the 6th spot behind Shaq ( no pun intended). He will pass up players 6-11:
1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 38, 387 pts
2. Karl Malone - 36, 928 pts
3. Michael Jordan -, 292 pts
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31, 419 pts
5. Shaq Oneal - 28, 255 pts
6. Moses Malone - 27, 409 pts (This will Kobe’s spot after this season)
7. Elvin Hayes - 27,313 pts
8. Hakeem Olajuwon -26, 946 pts
9. Oscar Robertson - 26,710 pts
10. Dominique Wilkens - 26,668 pts
11. John Havlicek - 26, 395 pts
12. The Black Mamba - 25,790 pts
So let me take you on math journey since. Over his career Kobe averages 1842 pts/yr. The last 5 seasons though ( which is more relevant) he’s avg 2351 pts/yr including with injuries. Last year was an off season injury plagued season for Kobe in which he scored only 1970 pts, still better than his career avg but below the last 5 seasons mark. So I estimate that next year a healthy Kobe will avg about 2000-2200 pts in order to sacrifice his game for the team. Let’s take the low end and say 2000 pts that comfortable put him at 27,790 pts and his 6th place all-time. In 2012 he will pass Shaq up ( while Shaq is still playing for 5th all time). But let’s say factoring age , Bynum’s emergence , more ball movement , and desire to save himself for the play-offs his numbers dip in each succeeding year. let’s say it tapers off to about 1800 a season worst case scenario ( and at age 32) if Kobe plays just 7 more seasons he will be in sole possession of 1st place on the all time scoring list with with 38,390 pts . Or he can play 8 more seasons and and 1600/yr and he still beats the all-time mark by 200 pts with 38,590 pts
At any rate the path way to NBA immortality is paved for Kobe. He will top Kareem and MJ for 8 les 3 more in his cards and will top Kareem in points solidifying his claim as the NBA’s greatest. These are hallowed records like baseball’s home run and for Kobe to be on the list as an active player and still dominating is the true measuring stick. See MVP awards are fine but they’re not symbolic of the effort. They’re more cosmetics than anything. Give me the that doesn’t need make-up. les, scoring records, peer acknowledgment means more than anything.
Look at the list above again and look at the company Kobe is keeping and surpassing at the same time. Duncan, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowtski are no where near this list. I will let you haters marinate on that for minute.
what a
scoring is one facet of the game son, the impact duncan had on a game offensively and defensively during his peak was clearly bigger than the impact kobe had during his peak and only a kobe rider like yourself would argue that...kobe is a great individual talent but we saw him failing to reach the playoffs/get out of the first round when he wasnt surrounded with great players like gasol and shaq.
duncan on the other hand anchored the best defensive team of the past decade and arguably one of the best defensive teams of all time. offensively he was the offense...it was throw it down into tim and let him go to work or have him kick out from the double/triple teams to the numerous shooters that came through SA and had career years. this was especially true during the mentioned 2003 season where he won regular season and finals mvp--this was ginobili's rookie year and parker's sop re year before they had developed into the all-stars they are today.
duncan>kobe to anyone that follows basketball closely and isnt a kobe rider, numerous greats have said they would build a team around duncan before any other player of his generation. kobe very well might get more glory once both players are retired but that will have more to do with duncans quiet persona and him playing for the small-market spurs than anything else.
That's the opinion of 1 guy and his co-workers at NBA.com..I'm not even sure if that guy even gets an official MVP vote..those are predictions..
I bet you the majority of people didn't accurately predict most of the NBA MVP winners of the last decade before the season began..
Nah, this only goes to show what a ballhog and self-absorbed prick Kobe is. End of discussion.
He doesn't need to.
What I do know is that Kobe is sitting on 25,790 career points for # 12 on the NBA all time list. After this season he will leap frog basically 6 spots to sit comfortably in the 6th spot behind Shaq ( no pun intended). He will pass up players 6-11:
1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 38, 387 pts
2. Karl Malone - 36, 928 pts
3. Michael Jordan -, 292 pts
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31, 419 pts
5. Shaq Oneal - 28, 255 pts
6. Moses Malone - 27, 409 pts (This will Kobe’s spot after this season)
7. Elvin Hayes - 27,313 pts
8. Hakeem Olajuwon -26, 946 pts
9. Oscar Robertson - 26,710 pts
10. Dominique Wilkens - 26,668 pts
11. John Havlicek - 26, 395 pts
12. The Black Mamba - 25,790 pts
So let me take you on math journey since. Over his career Kobe averages 1842 pts/yr. The last 5 seasons though ( which is more relevant) he’s avg 2351 pts/yr including with injuries. Last year was an off season injury plagued season for Kobe in which he scored only 1970 pts, still better than his career avg but below the last 5 seasons mark. So I estimate that next year a healthy Kobe will avg about 2000-2200 pts in order to sacrifice his game for the team. Let’s take the low end and say 2000 pts that comfortable put him at 27,790 pts and his 6th place all-time. In 2012 he will pass Shaq up ( while Shaq is still playing for 5th all time). But let’s say factoring age , Bynum’s emergence , more ball movement , and desire to save himself for the play-offs his numbers dip in each succeeding year. let’s say it tapers off to about 1800 a season worst case scenario ( and at age 32) if Kobe plays just 7 more seasons he will be in sole possession of 1st place on the all time scoring list with with 38,390 pts . Or he can play 8 more seasons and and 1600/yr and he still beats the all-time mark by 200 pts with 38,590 pts
At any rate the path way to NBA immortality is paved for Kobe. He will top Kareem and MJ for 8 les 3 more in his cards and will top Kareem in points solidifying his claim as the NBA’s greatest. These are hallowed records like baseball’s home run and for Kobe to be on the list as an active player and still dominating is the true measuring stick. See MVP awards are fine but they’re not symbolic of the effort. They’re more cosmetics than anything. Give me the that doesn’t need make-up. les, scoring records, peer acknowledgment means more than anything.
Look at the list above again and look at the company Kobe is keeping and surpassing at the same time. Duncan, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowtski are no where near this list. I will let you haters marinate on that for minute.
Fact....Jordan and Duncan are UNDEFEATED IN NBA FINALS HISTORY. That's a .1000 Winning Percentage you whiny biatches Never Talk About. Complaining about Regular Season MVPs is fine, it's subjective. But because Bean will never be undefeated and the result is out there, he'll never surpass Jordan. Why else would many of you LAL fan or bandwagon call MJJ Jordone? Jealousy rears it's ugly head.Bird and Duncan never did it.
See, that's the rub. He's been beat...TWICE. Once in which he tried to take over and that resulted in a 4-1 Piston le.
Once, in which he led his team to the greatest Finals defeat in history. To Boston, no less.
Back-to-back would be nice. But you guys make it seem like it's that way everywhere, when it's not. The NFL, it's rare. Same for hockey, same for any other sport. Sure it's been accomplished, but it's cyclical.
Prior to Pat Riley's promise for a repeat, the previous 18 seasons resulted had none. I expect no 3peat. Deep playoff runs and injuries will have the LAL not win a 3rd le in a row. Bean & PJax will fail to win another grouping of 3.
You have a way of destroying Laker fans' arguments every single ing time.Good thing you're a Spurs fan, brah.
3 Months & Some Change Later:
Tangental question...
In the modern era of basketball (since the Magic/Bird 80s era), to be considered in that elite class of all time greats, does a player need to have a League MVP, Finals MVP, and an Olympic gold medal?
Jordan, Magic, Bird did it. Hakeem did it. Shaq did it. Kobe did it. All the greats of the greats did it (who had a chance to do it). Should it be a "requirement" to have that Olympic gold medal to be in that elite class of all time greats?
Your thoughts?
It's a tough question. I would say right now it's probably extremely difficult to judge this, for the simple fact that right now there are more elite players in the NBA than ever before. Not just top tier guys like Barkley and Ewing, but actually elite players, elite winners who are in a different stratosphere as far as their ability to take games over.
Wade, LeBron, Duncan, Durant, and Kobe (not to mention prime Shaq) would have absolutely murdered defenses in every other decade of basketball save perhaps the peak of the 90s. Dirk (who's probably a notch below the above mentioned) with his length and shot would have had maybe one or two players in the league that could even bother him. Chris Paul would have decimated defenses. Even Paul Pierce (who's vastly underrated, especially earlier in his career) would have contended for the scoring le every year in the 70s to early 80s. Say all you want about the rough style of play -- the 80s and the prior decades were a weak era defensively and had very little in the way of complex schemes designed to shut players down.
So, even though Kobe doesn't have a Finals MVP and a regular season MVP in the same season, I really can't lower his value as a player simply because we are in an era of the dominant superstar. It's not exactly a good thing for him, because obviously another regular season MVP would go a long way toward bolstering his claims as one of the top players of all-time.
I think it's just a bit early to even tell at this point. LeBron James is entering his prime, and Kevin Durant will be there soon. Kobe is going to be hard pressed to secure another regular season MVP, but I'm not sure that means his legacy will be damaged.
So, I think to be in perhaps the top 5 players, or perhaps even the top 8, you need an MVP and Finals MVP, but that's it. A player has a chance at the top 10 without it (which would have to be considered "great"), but once you get to that elite 8 status... the compe ion becomes very tough, especially a decade later when the active dominance of a player fades and all that's left are words about his legacy.
Look at the bolded list above. Aside from Durant, who's a bit young to be considered but could be as good or better than anyone on that list, who do you think is going to be left out of the top 15 players of all-time when they hang up their shoes? Maybe Wade? LeBron, if he does get rings, could wind up a top 5 or even top 3 of all-time, Duncan is easily top 10, maybe top 6, Kobe is top 10, Shaq is top 10, Wade will probably be top 20 at the absolute worst. So we (potentially) have 1/3rd of the top 15 players of all-time on the floor RIGHT NOW. Today. That's unbelievable. And really, aside from the top 3 spots occupied by Jordan, Jabbar, and Wilt, what position isn't reachable right now? You could make a pretty convincing argument to put Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq all in the top 7. When you add the potential of LeBron's career to that mix, it gets pretty crazy.
Last edited by Cry Havoc; 08-18-2010 at 10:09 AM.
Finals MVP means you dominated the FINALS. You can suck for the first 3 rounds.
You are seriously one of the worst posters on this site. I know you like talking trash, but considering that's all you do, reading your posts get tiresome after maybe the 3rd time you post the same inane BS.Going undefeated in the finals is ok, but the playoffs are the playoffs. It doesn't matter if you lose in the first round or the finals, at the end of the you still lost. What I find amazing is you all claim Duncan was the best player of his generation. The best player of his generation and yet he's only been able to get there 4 times. Duncan has been the only player of his generation to play his full career with a team that was a contender, and yet he's only visited the finals 4 times. The only reason for this set back for Duncan was the emergence of Kobe. If Kobe had stayed with the team that drafted him, Duncan's career would have been much greater.
Head to head, Kobe s on Duncan. The four times that Kobe ted on Duncan would have been guaranteed les for Duncan. This is why Pop vehemently cursed the league when Kobe finally received help. He knew that Duncan's career was over and his coaching job was at stake. See, you all are dumb fans that have hope, but Pop knew for a fact that the reign of Kobe was resurrected and he and Duncan would go back to living in Kobe's shadow. The only thing that's stopping the Lakers from three-peating is time. Dr. Buss is already sizing up rings.
Never understood this criticism. It's better to lose in the first round, second round, or conference finals than losing in the NBA Finals? How does that make sense? Going undefeated when making it to the NBA Finals is impressive, especially when a player has that opportunity to be in the Finals multiple times. But, I don't think it's all that more impressive for player A to have gone 4-0 in the NBA Finals versus player be having gone 5-2 in the NBA Finals. I think getting to the NBA Finals is more impressive than losing earlier in the playoffs.
Is Bill Russell's championship legacy somehow tarnished by his 11-1 record in the NBA Finals. Does that 1 Finals loss somehow drop him from being the greatest NBA winner ever? Does Jo Jo White being undefeated in the NBA Finals somehow mean he's a better winner than Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, both of whom lost in the NBA Finals?
Never understood this argument.
I never implied fellow Spurs fans were knowledgeable, genius. Not that they're not, obviously it's a case by case type thing. I'm not going to make a blanket statement one way or the other, just like I wouldn't with any other fan base.You're a laughing riot trying to imply you and fellow Spur fans are knowledgeable. Duncan is no where close to Kobe's skill level and athleticism. He could never score with Kobe...Kobe would and has ted on Duncan's accomplishments. Duncan compared to Kobe will be relegated to a footnote in history. No outside of San Antonio even considers Duncan in Kobe's league, les or not.
Thank goodness e Lee did his do entary while Kobe was putting the Spurs away. That is an immortal piece of work. Classic and Timeless, and I'm grateful for it and I want to shed a tear like Fisher after game 6 of the WCSF in '03. Because it symbolizes the death of the Spurs and it went out to basketball fans around the world.
If you don't think prime Duncan's skill level wasn't "close to Bryant's", then you have no credibility because it's an indication of how little you know about the game. What's with the scoring obsession? There's more to the game than that. As I said though, if Duncan was a selfish, stats obsessed gunner and fired away relentlessly, he easily could have tacked on a couple more thousand regular season points.
Not only is Duncan in Bryant's league, Duncan is still greater than him historically to anyone who's not a Lakers fan, is knowledgeable about the game and doesn't have a vested interest in propping up Bryant.
You like stats so much, here's one of my favorites...
Career playoff leaders for win shares...
6. Tim Duncan 28.61
9. Kobe Bryant 26.12
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career_p.html
But wait, it get's better...
Bryant is 5th in minutes played at 7811 and 6th in games played at 198, while Duncan is 14th in minutes played at 6740 and 17th in games played at 170.
That should give you a pretty good indication of who's had a greater impact on not just the games, but more importantly, the most important games.
Duncan is also superior to Bryant in regular season win shares despite also playing less minutes/games and he's a more efficient regular season and playoff performer.
But why let facts get in the way? The media's told us that Bryant has left Duncan, O'Neal, heck even Johnson and Bird, in the dust and is now chasing down Jordan, so it must be true that he's better than all of them.
destroying Lakers fans arguement?You have a way of destroying Laker fans' arguments every single ing time.
Would you rather go 8 for 12 or 4 for 4? I just destroyed his arguement.
8 les > 4 les.
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