Krugman: This is Is Not a Recovery

[ChumpDumper]

Deficits are based on revenue and spending. Bush tax cuts represent lost revenue. What percentage of the CURRENT deficit are these lost revenues, when the stimulus is factored in?

Concentrate, Darrin. Read the following statements slowly:

Tax cuts have nothing to do with quadrupling the deficit.

Just so Darrin knows, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 didn't only authorize spending.

Perhaps he can now figure out why what he said was so incredibly stupid.

You'll have to prove you are smart enough to figure out what I'm talking about here. So far, you have failed.

[MannyIsGod]

A very simple question: Would unemployment be higher without the stimulus or would it be lower?

[DarrinS]

The goals are exactly what it accomplished. Improvements across the board on the economy.

Yes, I know what you're going to say no so go ahead and tell me how Obama gave an arbitrary number that we passed and ignore the fact that without the stimulus it would have been worse.

Its funny that you make fun of Krugman all the time because his forecasts of what this stimulus was going to do have been pretty much perfect.

I honestly think you believe this.

Oh well, I've moved my money out of stocks (for now). You can leave yours in, since you appear to be more optimistic than me.

[DarrinS]

A very simple question: Would unemployment be higher without the stimulus or would it be lower?

I don't know. And I don't know how either position could be proven. How do they measure the "saved jobs" metric?

[MannyIsGod]

You could ask these 3 private economic firms why they are able to make such measurements.

But furthermore if you don't know then how can it possibly be blatently obvious the stimulus didn't work?

[MannyIsGod]

I honestly think you believe this.

Oh well, I've moved my money out of stocks (for now). You can leave yours in, since you appear to be more optimistic than me.

What part of that said I was optimistic? You're too busy keeping your head up your ass you failed to notice Krugman isn't optimistic and hasn't been happy with Obama for quite some time.

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin - Its obvious the stimulus didnt work

Me - Would unemployment be lower or higher without it?

Darrin - I don't know but its obvious!

[DarrinS]

Darrin - Its obvious the stimulus didnt work

Me - Would unemployment be lower or higher without it?

Darrin - I don't know but its obvious!

German Economy Surges by Defying Stimulus Strategy

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/...mulus-strategy

[boutons_deux]

The German situation is very different. Germany isn't owned by its corporations and finance sector, and there is still a very strong union membership. The education system actually produces employable graduates, without people whining about its meritorious multi-track system. I've worked in Germany lot, and am always impressed by Germany's culture that emphasizes competence at all levels, compared with the dumbuck "fun/TV/pop culture" jerkoffs the US culture dumps on employers. There's no comparable "culture of competence" in France or UK, both of which envy Germany's education system.

Germany has actually acted like a mature, adult country, achieved a consensus that permits the country to exploit its strengths (mostly high tech exports), have a humane safety net and health care system, under social democracy.

USA's bull "free market" has delivered a of lot less wealth and security to a of a lot fewer people.

[DMX7]

German Economy Surges by Defying Stimulus Strategy

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/...mulus-strategy

Apples and Oranges.

[ChumpDumper]

German Economy Surges by Defying Stimulus Strategy

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/...mulus-strategy

How did they measure how many jobs they saved through government programs?

[DarrinS]

How did they measure how many jobs they saved through government programs?

I don't know. Do they also have a computer model that "measures" what happens in alternate realities?

[DarrinS]

The German situation is very different. Germany isn't owned by its corporations and finance sector, and there is still a very strong union membership. The education system actually produces employable graduates, without people whining about its meritorious multi-track system. I've worked in Germany lot, and am always impressed by Germany's culture that emphasizes competence at all levels, compared with the dumbuck "fun/TV/pop culture" jerkoffs the US culture dumps on employers. There's no comparable "culture of competence" in France or UK, both of which envy Germany's education system.

Germany has actually acted like a mature, adult country, achieved a consensus that permits the country to exploit its strengths (mostly high tech exports), have a humane safety net and health care system, under social democracy.

USA's bull "free market" has delivered a of lot less wealth and security to a of a lot fewer people.

So, basically we had to spend more because our population is re ed?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know.

You got that right.

Do they also have a computer model that "measures" what happens in alternate realities?

Is that your critique of the three studies that were provided to you? You don't understand it so it must be wrong?

[boutons_deux]

"basically we had to spend more because our population is re ed"

no, America got ed, and is un able, by its predatory financial sector and its "financial innnovations", by capitalists and by corporations, and the now-proven-to-have-failed conservative "philosophy" of deregulation and "free market always delivers the best solution."

It helps that VRWC like Murdock, Mellon-Scaif, Kochs, the Repugs find ignorant, uneducated, immature bubbas and rednecks as easy stooges for their agit-prop.

[Winehole23]

You don't understand it so it must be wrong?

Even worse, DarrinS would confine us all to his own ignorance of the matter.

[DarrinS]

You got that right.Is that your critique of the three studies that were provided to you? You don't understand it so it must be wrong?

If Manny would provide a link, I'll go take a look at how they projected their "what if the stimulus wasn't passed" scenarios.

I'm just assuming it's based on some kind of model, because the stimulus WAS passed.

It's kind of like discussing whether the world would be a better place if we didn't get rid of Saddam. There's reallly no way to know, so it would all be based on "what if" scenarios and conjecture.

But, whatever, post a link so I can actually read the studies.

By the way, what's YOUR opinion? Be specific.

[boutons_deux]

"if we didn't get rid of Saddam. There's reallly no way to know"

sure there is. Just look at IRaq in Feb 03 and now. The US has created a Pax Americana, aka, a hole, setting back Iraq by many decades, with no gain to anybody except the US MIC.

All the Repug Govs, Reps, Senators who pissed on state stimulus funds have taken them and loved them, and taken credit for them.

Lots of school, state, municipal employees have jobs that were marked to be cut, but the stimulus kept them on a payroll, instead on unemployment roll.

[DarrinS]

"if we didn't get rid of Saddam. There's reallly no way to know"

sure there is. Just look at IRaq in Feb 03 and now. The US has created a Pax Americana, aka, a hole, setting back Iraq by many decades, with no gain to anybody except the US MIC.

All the Repug Govs, Reps, Senators who pissed on state stimulus funds have taken them and loved them, and taken credit for them.

Lots of school, state, municipal employees have jobs that were marked to be cut, but the stimulus kept them on a payroll, instead on unemployment roll.

You miss my point. How do you justify the argument "well, it would've been WAAAY worse if we DIDN'T do X"?

[admiralsnackbar]

You miss my point. How do you justify the argument "well, it would've been WAAAY worse if we DIDN'T do X"?

How do you justify the converse? It isn't knowable, so it becomes an excuse for both sides to spin their wheels using little more than personal prejudice pro or contra Keynesian econ.

[Ignignokt]

So keynesian economics is not necessary for Germans?

Got it.

[DarrinS]

How do you justify the converse? It isn't knowable, so it becomes an excuse for both sides to spin their wheels using little more than personal prejudice pro or contra Keynesian econ.

You're right, I can't prove the converse of that argument.

But, the entire argument of "it would've been much worse if we didn't pass the stimulus" is asinine.

It's like if you suffered male pattern baldness and your doctor prescribed Rogaine to stimulate hair growth. Instead of growing any hair, you lose a bit more. Your doctor then tells you that the treatment was a success, because, had you NOT taken it, you would've been completely bald. Wasn't really the point, was it?

[EmptyMan]

Of course it would have been worse. One could argue America will never fix itself until we hit that rock bottom and have no other choice than to put the political bs aside and actually do work son. We postponed the inevitable and are suffering anyway. Cool.


1 Trillion for this. Awesome. Can't wait to see the bill for the next house of cards.

[DarrinS]

Of course it would have been worse. One could argue America will never fix itself until we hit that rock bottom and have no other choice than to put the political bs aside and actually do work son. We postponed the inevitable and are suffering anyway. Cool.

Well, another huge problem is that we have a very large demographic entering retirement age and a younger generation that is -- how would you describe them -- somewhat less ambitious than their parents' or grandparents' generation.

[admiralsnackbar]

How can you put it on the generation when the jobs got shipped out to other countries by our unerring lead capitalists? People want to earn a living as much as they ever did, they just don't happen to live in economic boom times.