2010-11 San Antonio Spurs are not contenders

[O.J Mayo]

First of all, any player is an ankle snap away from not playing. What a great rationale.

Secondly, I would like to have a "chucker" on my team that can shoot at least 50% from the field in his prime.

Thirdly, the Spurs won 50 game slast year. If you are stating that this will drop by 5 games next seaosn for no legit reason, yo are a dumb Laker .

That's it and that's all.

[NRHector]

wow reaching koolaidman level in record time congrats!!!!!!

[Jt.ONE]

2nd round exit i say

[DJB]

They fall into the category of "pretenders" despite the "benefit of the doubt" given to this old washed up team that manages to make the playoffs every year.

Here are the facts:

- Tim Duncan has declined too much
- Manu is an glass ankle snap away from not playing
- Parker is an overrated no defense euro chucking softie
- Richard Jefferson was the worst pick up in the summer of 09
- No elite perimeter defenders to guard the elite wings
- Tims interior defense has fallen off too much
- No real shot blocking presence on the team
- Tiago Splitter's hyped arrival ignores his massive deficiencies on defense and on the boards

Few bright spots include:

- George Hill appears to be a solid PG of the future on both ends of the floor
- Dejuan Blair could prove to be a solid energy role player off the bench
- Pop is still a great coach

Projection:

45 wins - 7th seed in the West - 1st round loss in the playoffs

Why are you so concerned with us, Laker fan?

[BadOdor]

Tbh most black named spur fan agree they are not contenders. Only GNSF still thinks that they are.

[xellos88330]

The arrival of Splitter will hopefully leave Pop little room to go with small ball exclusively in fourth quarters. On the defensive end, Splitter I do not think is a stellar on ball defender, but his mobility should make his 7ft frame a huge asset for help defense. From what I have seen of him (it is limited btw) he does seem to do a solid job on the pick and roll defensively. This is where the Spurs were killed last season. In order to stop it, Popovich went with smaller faster lineups which completely killed the boards, the offense, and the overall defense and flow of the game.

Most contenders are only 1 injury away from becoming pretenders. I do not think that is a valid point.

Duncan's individual defense is still pretty good, but his help defense is starting to suffer due to his mobility being limited.

Parker is an elite PG. He more often than not shoots above 50% and is usually at or near the top in PG FG% I do not classify him as a chucker.

During the preseason, what I have seen of RJ is movement with a purpose. He seems to be getting it, just not being very efficient. I still think he is the weak link if his defense doesn't improve. He is moving well and making better rotations, but his defensive judgement and reaction is still suspect.

No shot blocking is true.

No wing defenders, true.

I think that the impression of Duncan on the decline is absolute poppy . It isn't Tim that is declining, it is his minutes. Playoffs last season when he started back up to what he used to play in the regular season, a solid 20-10 player still. I define declining is when he gets the minutes and isn't able to put up the consistent numbers he has been known for his entire career. The first season he doesn't do it will be the first of his decline or his first "bad year".

[mingus]

all i needed was '99 and '03.

going through LA this year would be gravy on gravy on gravy.

[ezau]

They fall into the category of "pretenders" despite the "benefit of the doubt" given to this old washed up team that manages to make the playoffs every year.

Here are the facts:

- Tim Duncan has declined too much
- Manu is an glass ankle snap away from not playing
- Parker is an overrated no defense euro chucking softie
- Richard Jefferson was the worst pick up in the summer of 09
- No elite perimeter defenders to guard the elite wings
- Tims interior defense has fallen off too much
- No real shot blocking presence on the team
- Tiago Splitter's hyped arrival ignores his massive deficiencies on defense and on the boards

Few bright spots include:

- George Hill appears to be a solid PG of the future on both ends of the floor
- Dejuan Blair could prove to be a solid energy role player off the bench
- Pop is still a great coach

Projection:

45 wins - 7th seed in the West - 1st round loss in the playoffs

I don't think they're real contenders right now. Hopefull, they'll achieve better cohesion and chemistry by playoff time.

[Man In Black]

Now, if we talk about the current climate of the NBA, who the best players are and which teams are true contenders and those who are just pretenders we can actually get somewhere because we'll have the factual evidence of the NBA to rely on...

Let's see if you give us that factual evidence to rely on. Remember this was your quote above...the term "factual evidence."


So you wrote the following. I've taken the time to go point-by-point.

They fall into the category of "pretenders" despite the "benefit of the doubt" given to this old washed up team that manages to make the playoffs every year.

Here are the facts:

- Tim Duncan has declined too much
- Manu is an glass ankle snap away from not playing
- Parker is an overrated no defense euro chucking softie
- Richard Jefferson was the worst pick up in the summer of 09
- No elite perimeter defenders to guard the elite wings
- Tims interior defense has fallen off too much
- No real shot blocking presence on the team
- Tiago Splitter's hyped arrival ignores his massive deficiencies on defense and on the boards

Few bright spots include:

- George Hill appears to be a solid PG of the future on both ends of the floor
- Dejuan Blair could prove to be a solid energy role player off the bench
- Pop is still a great coach

Projection:

45 wins - 7th seed in the West - 1st round loss in the playoffs

Here are the facts:

Technically, the factual thing to say is...Here is your OPINION.

- Tim Duncan has declined too much

By what standard? Can you give us more than just opinion? In short, what kind of factual evidence do you have that supports this hypothesis. It's gotta be more than mere observation. If you say that, then explain the following.

It of course starts with Duncan. Everything remains gradual, even his descent; there are no great ripples, no major plummet. His per game averages dipped slightly (to 18 points and 10 rebounds), but consider that he played just 31 minutes per game (the fifth straight year this his minutes have decreased) and his per-minute stats remain as healthy as ever. Age is catching him but the precision is still there – the footwork, the angles, the defensive coverage. He may not have captured fans in a way that the flashier, more marketable players did, but when you consider that of all active players only he was the best one on four le teams, he’s really the envy of them all.

So if his per minute stats are as healthy as ever, then how has he declined too much. I mean, if you want to talk about per minute stats on the decline, one only has to look at Bean. Mathematically...that is factual evidence.
Using the NBA's official stat engine, one can see a statistic called Effectiveness. In essence, it's a simple calculation. It goes like so: [(Pts+Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl) – (Missed FG+Missed FT+TO)] / Games Played. Going 1 step further, 1 can then change the divosor to Minutes Played instead of Games Played to get an Effectivess Per Minute.

It's easy math, an even though the NBA doesn't list it, we can do it here in plain sight.
Bean for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 27.65 * 77 Games Played = 2129 Total Score / 3142 Minutes Played = .678
Tim for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 25.39 * 80 Games Played = 2031 Total Score / 2728 Minutes Played = .744

Bean for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 26.60 * 82 Games Played = 2181 Total Score / 3193 Minutes Played = .683
Tim for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 24.60 * 78 Games Played = 1918 Total Score / 2653 Minutes Played = .723


Bean for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.18 * 82 Games Played = 1982 Total Score / 2965 Minutes Played = .668
Tim for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.2 * 75 Games Played = 1815 Total Score / 2525 Minutes Played = .719

Bean for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 22.89 * 73 Games Played = 1670 Total Score / 2835 Minutes Played = .589
Tim for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 23.42 * 78 Games Played = 1826 Total Score / 2438 Minutes Played = .749

It's Math aka Factual Evidence that it's Bean and Not Tim that is Declining. I await your counterpoint.

- Manu is an glass ankle snap away from not playing

Couldn't the same thing be said about Bean's oft-injured knee? What about Bynum? In essence, that can happen to anybody. But for now, Manu wasn't injured last season and comes in well rested. The same can't be said for either Bynum or Bean or even Luke Walton's back.

- Parker is an overrated no defense euro chucking softie

Curious to see the factual evidence that backs this up. Provide it. He was hurt with knick-knack injuries all season starting with National Team commitments all the way until the playoffs. What's factual is that if you're hurting the whole season, then your stats will reflect that. And when you say no defense, then why is it that when Parker guarded Steve Nash that Nash played worse as opposed to him playing better when defended by noted defender, George Hill? So...prove your statement with factual evidence.

- Richard Jefferson was the worst pick up in the summer of 09

Worst among playoff teams. I'll agree. But this system is where one, normally, benefits from time and a 2nd season. It's no guarantee but improvement is a to be determined. I mean this guy ain't Vujacic, a never was, he's just a guy who didn't acclimate smoothly. Again, this one is to be determined.

- No elite perimeter defenders to guard the elite wings

Singularly speaking, there isn't a Bruce Bowen on the team(The best Perimeter defender for the 2000's as evidenced by his continual placements on ALL-NBA D Team) But there are some candidates on the team who seemingly have the right tools. This part I'll defer but this too...is a to be determined.

- Tims interior defense has fallen off too much

Wrong in all sense of the word. You have to quantify this one. Opp FG% is affected just as much by the aforementioned perimeter defender AND a good 2nd big. When your 2nd big is Matt Bonner, then there is a problem. The 2nd big this year is a combo of DeJuan Blair and Tiago Splitter. Just by being physical, the Spurs have shored up the interior. Also, you can't base it off the PHX series. Gentry's plan the whole time was to switch to have the Big defend the perimeter. When that happened Duncan had too, too much ground to cover if a pass was thrown to the low post. So it's more a design scheme than Tim's physical attributes. Had Channing Frye been as nuclear hot against the LAL as he was against the Spurs, then either Pau or Bynum would have had the same issue. Alas, Frye blew his wad against the Spurs and relaxed because PHX had finally slayed their Devil.

- No real shot blocking presence on the team

I've explained that up above. It's not really about blocked shots as opposed to making the opposition take tough shots. All that will be revealed in Opp FG%. No one gives a if they're team gets the most blocks if they ain't winning anything. OKC had the most Blocks Per Game by team last season at 5.9 Per Game. The Clippers finished in 3rd place at 5.7 Per Game and didn't even sniff playoffs. And while the vaunted LAL finished tied for 15th with 4.9 BPG, you make it seem as if San Antonio finished far, far below. That would be incorrect. They finished at 4.6 BPG with Bonner playing significant minutes. Both McDyess and Bonner will be playing less, while Splitter and Blair get duty to run post area with Duncan.

So...factual evidence seems to suggest you've overhyped your team's blocking capablitilies. Considering you have 3 close to or taller,7-footers who play significant minutes, whereas the Spurs went in with just Duncan at 6-11.

- Tiago Splitter's hyped arrival ignores his massive deficiencies on defense and on the boards

I'm curious about this one too. The NBA has been pining for this guy since he was 18. If he was a LAL guy, then he'd be hyped as the next White Hope but since he's coming to San Antonio, then you just assume he's no good. Typical LAL bandwagon fan logic. It reeks of Steve Blake being hyped as a GREAT defender when, in fact, he's just SLIGHTLY better than Fisher. It's an improvement true, but TP didn't have a problem going around Blake or Fisher in the past, and fully healthy, he's going to attack with infinite ease around either of those guys. But back to Splitter. What he is, is a smart player with a great understanding of Flex cut and Pick & Roll offenses. His passing ability will surpise you(Trust me...you don't know how adept a passer he is, but some say...it approaches that of Russian Legend, Arvydas Sabonis) and his ability to read and cover P & R attackers is really good. Does that amount to lots of blocks? Maybe, maybe not...but it will result in lower FG% for opponents. If you look at Luis Scola's indoctrination into the NBA, you have an approximation of what Splitter can give a team, except that he's much taller than Scola and will play in the interior more often. In the World's, A small sample true, but still one that can be referenced as factual evidence, Splitter held his own against Team USA and in the interior, he proved to be too much for the likes of Lamar Odom, Kevin Love, & Tyson Chandler.

SO...we're waiting for Factual Evidence to back up the opinions you posted. I gave you some, I await your counter with some FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

[NRHector]

Let's see if you give us that factual evidence to rely on. Remember this was your quote above...the term "factual evidence."


So you wrote the following. I've taken the time to go point-by-point.


Technically, the factual thing to say is...Here is your OPINION.

By what standard? Can you give us more than just opinion? In short, what kind of factual evidence do you have that supports this hypothesis. It's gotta be more than mere observation. If you say that, then explain the following.



So if his per minute stats are as healthy as ever, then how has he declined too much. I mean, if you want to talk about per minute stats on the decline, one only has to look at Bean. Mathematically...that is factual evidence.
Using the NBA's official stat engine, one can see a statistic called Effectiveness. In essence, it's a simple calculation. It goes like so: [(Pts+Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl) – (Missed FG+Missed FT+TO)] / Games Played. Going 1 step further, 1 can then change the divosor to Minutes Played instead of Games Played to get an Effectivess Per Minute.

It's easy math, an even though the NBA doesn't list it, we can do it here in plain sight.
Bean for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 27.65 * 77 Games Played = 2129 Total Score / 3142 Minutes Played = .678
Tim for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 25.39 * 80 Games Played = 2031 Total Score / 2728 Minutes Played = .744

Bean for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 26.60 * 82 Games Played = 2181 Total Score / 3193 Minutes Played = .683
Tim for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 24.60 * 78 Games Played = 1918 Total Score / 2653 Minutes Played = .723


Bean for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.18 * 82 Games Played = 1982 Total Score / 2965 Minutes Played = .668
Tim for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.2 * 75 Games Played = 1815 Total Score / 2525 Minutes Played = .719

Bean for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 22.89 * 73 Games Played = 1670 Total Score / 2835 Minutes Played = .589
Tim for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 23.42 * 78 Games Played = 1826 Total Score / 2438 Minutes Played = .749

It's Math aka Factual Evidence that it's Bean and Not Tim that is Declining. I await your counterpoint.


Couldn't the same thing be said about Bean's oft-injured knee? What about Bynum? In essence, that can happen to anybody. But for now, Manu wasn't injured last season and comes in well rested. The same can't be said for either Bynum or Bean or even Luke Walton's back.
Curious to see the factual evidence that backs this up. Provide it. He was hurt with knick-knack injuries all season starting with National Team commitments all the way until the playoffs. What's factual is that if you're hurting the whole season, then your stats will reflect that. And when you say no defense, then why is it that when Parker guarded Steve Nash that Nash played worse as opposed to him playing better when defended by noted defender, George Hill? So...prove your statement with factual evidence.
Worst among playoff teams. I'll agree. But this system is where one, normally, benefits from time and a 2nd season. It's no guarantee but improvement is a to be determined. I mean this guy ain't Vujacic, a never was, he's just a guy who didn't acclimate smoothly. Again, this one is to be determined.
Singularly speaking, there isn't a Bruce Bowen on the team(The best Perimeter defender for the 2000's as evidenced by his continual placements on ALL-NBA D Team) But there are some candidates on the team who seemingly have the right tools. This part I'll defer but this too...is a to be determined.


Wrong in all sense of the word. You have to quantify this one. Opp FG% is affected just as much by the aforementioned perimeter defender AND a good 2nd big. When your 2nd big is Matt Bonner, then there is a problem. The 2nd big this year is a combo of DeJuan Blair and Tiago Splitter. Just by being physical, the Spurs have shored up the interior. Also, you can't base it off the PHX series. Gentry's plan the whole time was to switch to have the Big defend the perimeter. When that happened Duncan had too, too much ground to cover if a pass was thrown to the low post. So it's more a design scheme than Tim's physical attributes. Had Channing Frye been as nuclear hot against the LAL as he was against the Spurs, then either Pau or Bynum would have had the same issue. Alas, Frye blew his wad against the Spurs and relaxed because PHX had finally slayed their Devil.

I've explained that up above. It's not really about blocked shots as opposed to making the opposition take tough shots. All that will be revealed in Opp FG%. No one gives a if they're team gets the most blocks if they ain't winning anything. OKC had the most Blocks Per Game by team last season at 5.9 Per Game. The Clippers finished in 3rd place at 5.7 Per Game and didn't even sniff playoffs. And while the vaunted LAL finished tied for 15th with 4.9 BPG, you make it seem as if San Antonio finished far, far below. That would be incorrect. They finished at 4.6 BPG with Bonner playing significant minutes. Both McDyess and Bonner will be playing less, while Splitter and Blair get duty to run post area with Duncan.

So...factual evidence seems to suggest you've overhyped your team's blocking capablitilies. Considering you have 3 close to or taller,7-footers who play significant minutes, whereas the Spurs went in with just Duncan at 6-11.


I'm curious about this one too. The NBA has been pining for this guy since he was 18. If he was a LAL guy, then he'd be hyped as the next White Hope but since he's coming to San Antonio, then you just assume he's no good. Typical LAL bandwagon fan logic. It reeks of Steve Blake being hyped as a GREAT defender when, in fact, he's just SLIGHTLY better than Fisher. It's an improvement true, but TP didn't have a problem going around Blake or Fisher in the past, and fully healthy, he's going to attack with infinite ease around either of those guys. But back to Splitter. What he is, is a smart player with a great understanding of Flex cut and Pick & Roll offenses. His passing ability will surpise you(Trust me...you don't know how adept a passer he is, but some say...it approaches that of Russian Legend, Arvydas Sabonis) and his ability to read and cover P & R attackers is really good. Does that amount to lots of blocks? Maybe, maybe not...but it will result in lower FG% for opponents. If you look at Luis Scola's indoctrination into the NBA, you have an approximation of what Splitter can give a team, except that he's much taller than Scola and will play in the interior more often. In the World's, A small sample true, but still one that can be referenced as factual evidence, Splitter held his own against Team USA and in the interior, he proved to be too much for the likes of Lamar Odom, Kevin Love, & Tyson Chandler.

SO...we're waiting for Factual Evidence to back up the opinions you posted. I gave you some, I await your counter with some FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

damn

[Man In Black]

Waiting for Toby to answer this with his factual evidence. Your term, not mine.
I've got opinions too but I'll wait when the real basketball talk begins. In the interim, I thought I'd add some other opinions on what some media outlets are saying about the Spurs.
Yahoo NBA has the Spurs going to the WCF.
NBA TV has the Spurs going to the WCF.
Slam Online has the Spurs going to the WCF.
Sports Illustrated has the Spurs going to the WCF.

What do they see that you CANNOT?

[Booharv]

NBA's efficiency rating is one of the most laughed at advanced stats in the apbrmetric community. I just browsed through your post but if that is what you used you probably failed.

[Roddy Beaubois]

Why are you so concerned with us, Laker fan?

This is the goods coming from you

[Man In Black]

NBA's efficiency rating is one of the most laughed at advanced stats in the apbrmetric community. I just browsed through your post but if that is what you used you probably failed.

I read the APBR stuff. I've been reading stuff like Belloti's Points Created since the early 1990's. I disagree with what you're saying but I felt the PER wasn't the choice to use as well. EFF ratings were the lesser of two evils and could easily be found as an OFFICIAL stat on the NBA.com site.

But if you're going to wow us with you statistical brilliance, what stats would YOU use? Remember, one needs to provide us with FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

Besides, everyone should know that 1 ratings isn't the tell all. It's just an indicator. The gist of it is undeniable. Per Minute Stats overall between Bean and Tim? Tim is absolutely efficient with his time on the court and is more productive.

[AussieFanKurt]

thanks for your prediction, luckily you aren't the oracle

[Giuseppe]

I'd give up my celibacy for the oracle, inbred swine withstanding.

[Man In Black]

It's the next day and still no factual evidence to back up Toby's opinion.

I wonder, is it because he has none?

[nkdlunch]

Well the Spurs are the last pretenders to win it all, in 2007. So I like it.

[Ashy Larry]

San Antone's run is slowly ............... Fading to Black

[TinTin]

Tbh most black named spur fan agree they are not contenders. Only GNSF still thinks that they are.

I know I am grey

[history2b]

Let's see if you give us that factual evidence to rely on. Remember this was your quote above...the term "factual evidence."


So you wrote the following. I've taken the time to go point-by-point.


Technically, the factual thing to say is...Here is your OPINION.

Nope, those were the facts, not opinions.

By what standard? Can you give us more than just opinion? In short, what kind of factual evidence do you have that supports this hypothesis. It's gotta be more than mere observation. If you say that, then explain the following.

By NBA superstar standards, DUH. Observation is the only evidence you need and the 2010 playoffs were evidence enough of Tim Duncan's decline as a dominant player. If Tim is not dominant, the Spurs aren't contenders. A fanboy like yourself naturally will point to per minute statistics of "facts" while the reality of what took place on the floor. I'm going to guess you're the typical moron who understands basketball through the aid of a stat sheet.

So if his per minute stats are as healthy as ever, then how has he declined too much. I mean, if you want to talk about per minute stats on the decline, one only has to look at Bean. Mathematically...that is factual evidence.
Using the NBA's official stat engine, one can see a statistic called Effectiveness. In essence, it's a simple calculation. It goes like so: [(Pts+Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl) – (Missed FG+Missed FT+TO)] / Games Played. Going 1 step further, 1 can then change the divosor to Minutes Played instead of Games Played to get an Effectivess Per Minute.

It's easy math, an even though the NBA doesn't list it, we can do it here in plain sight.
Bean for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 27.65 * 77 Games Played = 2129 Total Score / 3142 Minutes Played = .678
Tim for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 25.39 * 80 Games Played = 2031 Total Score / 2728 Minutes Played = .744

Bean for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 26.60 * 82 Games Played = 2181 Total Score / 3193 Minutes Played = .683
Tim for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 24.60 * 78 Games Played = 1918 Total Score / 2653 Minutes Played = .723


Bean for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.18 * 82 Games Played = 1982 Total Score / 2965 Minutes Played = .668
Tim for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.2 * 75 Games Played = 1815 Total Score / 2525 Minutes Played = .719

Bean for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 22.89 * 73 Games Played = 1670 Total Score / 2835 Minutes Played = .589
Tim for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 23.42 * 78 Games Played = 1826 Total Score / 2438 Minutes Played = .749

It's Math aka Factual Evidence that it's Bean and Not Tim that is Declining. I await your counterpoint.

I was right! You are a run of the mill stat moron! I had an inking of hope you wouldn't be this dumb, I suppose because I am in constant search of a worthy adversary, but it is what it is.

Using these moronic irrelevant formulas to break down the game will never be apart of my language. Effing efficiency ratings, lol. When will the idiots ever learn?

How did you manage to measure the intangibles of the game with your efficiency breakdown? Heart, hustle, clutch, defense? A rebound collected in the 1st quarter is the same as a clutch board made on a crucial defensive stance in the 4th quarter? Same with shots made, steals, blocks, assists, etc etc. How are these important distinctions separated in your "efficiency statistics?"

And defense? How are proper defensive elements measured? When a player successfully cuts off a driving player or alters a shot just enough to cause a miss, how is this taken into account? What about defensive rotations that are made or failed to be made fast enough? How do we determine if players are playing the game "the right way?" How do we weigh making the most important plays of the game versus just run of the mill plays? It can't be done. It won't be done. The game is too complex and their are way too many intangibles to ever put the game in its entirety into mathematical context.

Stats are a useful, limited guide but any time anyone starts rationalizing in stat geek I immediately understand their brain's limitation on the game.

Couldn't the same thing be said about Bean's oft-injured knee? What about Bynum? In essence, that can happen to anybody. But for now, Manu wasn't injured last season and comes in well rested. The same can't be said for either Bynum or Bean or even Luke Walton's back.

Bean's oft injured knee hasn't caused him to miss big chunks of the season and Bean plays through the pain well enough to win championships. Manu's hang nail re-appears and he's back on the pine for weeks while Spurs fans resurrect the slew of excuses for why they'd really win if Manu had played. If I had a nickel every time a Spurs fan cried excuses about a Manu injury...

And Bynum is injury prone.... how has that inhibited the Lakers success?

Cool Luke Walton comment, a player who has absolutely no impact on winning or losing... You realize I picked Manu for a reason and not say, Matt Bonner, right?

Curious to see the factual evidence that backs this up. Provide it. He was hurt with knick-knack injuries all season starting with National Team commitments all the way until the playoffs. What's factual is that if you're hurting the whole season, then your stats will reflect that. And when you say no defense, then why is it that when Parker guarded Steve Nash that Nash played worse as opposed to him playing better when defended by noted defender, George Hill? So...prove your statement with factual evidence.

I called him:

soft - Are you suggesting he's tough?
euro - Is he African because he's black?
chucker - is he a distributing PG or a scoring PG?
no defense - because he plays horrendous man to man defense and has incredibly poor defensive instincts. Funny that you'd point to a single game where he played seemingly effective defense on Steve Nash, despite the Suns winning. Is Parker now a better defender than Hill based on this one game in your objective, non-homeristic eyes?

Worst among playoff teams. I'll agree. But this system is where one, normally, benefits from time and a 2nd season. It's no guarantee but improvement is a to be determined. I mean this guy ain't Vujacic, a never was, he's just a guy who didn't acclimate smoothly. Again, this one is to be determined.

Vujacic sucks, doesn't bother me one bit to admit that because I am not a homer moron who needs to justify everything for my team. Moreover critical thinking forces me to acknowledge that Vujacic's role and impact on the Lakers is not the same as what Jefferson's was expected to be.

When SA acquired RJ I laughed, literally. I mocked Spurs fans on that other board for months and I was told this meant I was now "scared of the revitalized Spurs" and that he now made them "the best Spurs team of the Duncan era" among a great many other things. You have to understand how much I relish in pointing out this miserable failure by the Spurs FO compounded by the worst contract extention I've seen many years.

It's been determined pal; it is a complete and utter failure that will only get worse over the next 4 years.

Singularly speaking, there isn't a Bruce Bowen on the team(The best Perimeter defender for the 2000's as evidenced by his continual placements on ALL-NBA D Team) But there are some candidates on the team who seemingly have the right tools. This part I'll defer but this too...is a to be determined.

Singularly speaking huh? Lol. No, sorry, there isn't one player on the Spurs roster who comes close to offering the defensive ability of Bruce Bowen, collectively or "singularly." That's a gaping hole in the Spurs roster and it will be exploited when it comes time to compete.

Wrong in all sense of the word. You have to quantify this one. Opp FG% is affected just as much by the aforementioned perimeter defender AND a good 2nd big. When your 2nd big is Matt Bonner, then there is a problem. The 2nd big this year is a combo of DeJuan Blair and Tiago Splitter. Just by being physical, the Spurs have shored up the interior. Also, you can't base it off the PHX series. Gentry's plan the whole time was to switch to have the Big defend the perimeter. When that happened Duncan had too, too much ground to cover if a pass was thrown to the low post. So it's more a design scheme than Tim's physical attributes. Had Channing Frye been as nuclear hot against the LAL as he was against the Spurs, then either Pau or Bynum would have had the same issue. Alas, Frye blew his wad against the Spurs and relaxed because PHX had finally slayed their Devil.

WRONG. You do NOT have to quantify this. You watch how he plays the game. You observe if he effectively rotates to the right position as quickly and successfully as he did say 7 years ago when he was one of the best in the league at doing just that.

"Just being physical" does not protect the paint. Dejuan Blair is strong but stupid and cannot rotate and block shots on an elite level. Neither can Tiago Splitter who's defense is subpar as well. He has some potential to improve but I wouldn't put money on him becoming a "defensive presence."

But getting back to Tim who is no longer a 1st team all NBA / DPOY type player as evidenced by the NBA's voting and recognition this past season and the Phoenix Suns series where unknown back up PG Goran Dragic literally shredded the once vaunted Spurs interior defense anchored by Timothy Duncan.

I've explained that up above. It's not really about blocked shots as opposed to making the opposition take tough shots. All that will be revealed in Opp FG%. No one gives a if they're team gets the most blocks if they ain't winning anything. OKC had the most Blocks Per Game by team last season at 5.9 Per Game. The Clippers finished in 3rd place at 5.7 Per Game and didn't even sniff playoffs. And while the vaunted LAL finished tied for 15th with 4.9 BPG, you make it seem as if San Antonio finished far, far below. That would be incorrect. They finished at 4.6 BPG with Bonner playing significant minutes. Both McDyess and Bonner will be playing less, while Splitter and Blair get duty to run post area with Duncan.

No, you rationalized like Spurs fanboy. Blocked shots are not necessarily the end all be all of interior defense but every elite team needs the threat a lane protector in order to establish elite team defense. Tim had been that guy for years but he no longer protects the paint with the same authority. Not only have his blocks gone down but so have his altered shots. It happens to everyone as they get old; you just aren't as fast on your feet.

So...factual evidence seems to suggest you've overhyped your team's blocking capablitilies. Considering you have 3 close to or taller,7-footers who play significant minutes, whereas the Spurs went in with just Duncan at 6-11.

Nope, not at all. The Lakers play elite defense. See the 2010 NBA playoffs as evidence. If you were rational minded you'd acknowledge that fact before you proclaimed anything to the contrary.

I'm curious about this one too. The NBA has been pining for this guy since he was 18. If he was a LAL guy, then he'd be hyped as the next White Hope but since he's coming to San Antonio, then you just assume he's no good. Typical LAL bandwagon fan logic. It reeks of Steve Blake being hyped as a GREAT defender when, in fact, he's just SLIGHTLY better than Fisher. It's an improvement true, but TP didn't have a problem going around Blake or Fisher in the past, and fully healthy, he's going to attack with infinite ease around either of those guys. But back to Splitter. What he is, is a smart player with a great understanding of Flex cut and Pick & Roll offenses. His passing ability will surpise you(Trust me...you don't know how adept a passer he is, but some say...it approaches that of Russian Legend, Arvydas Sabonis) and his ability to read and cover P & R attackers is really good. Does that amount to lots of blocks? Maybe, maybe not...but it will result in lower FG% for opponents. If you look at Luis Scola's indoctrination into the NBA, you have an approximation of what Splitter can give a team, except that he's much taller than Scola and will play in the interior more often. In the World's, A small sample true, but still one that can be referenced as factual evidence, Splitter held his own against Team USA and in the interior, he proved to be too much for the likes of Lamar Odom, Kevin Love, & Tyson Chandler.

Really? That's your poor woe is me, we're San Antonio not LA violin playing? lol

Please. If you can break down the game based on observation you can determine what you need to know about any player. I've seen Tiago play and he's ok. He's not a game changer but he can be a contributor if he picks up the NBA game and fits in with his teammates. That in a nuts will be how his season will play out. His passing ability is solid... Sabonis-level? lol Uhh, no. Funny that you've "heard" it could be at that level.

If you've seen him play you wouldn't have to "hear" anything. Just another example of overzealous fanboy hype via the internet.

[history2b]

Let's see if you give us that factual evidence to rely on. Remember this was your quote above...the term "factual evidence."


So you wrote the following. I've taken the time to go point-by-point.


Technically, the factual thing to say is...Here is your OPINION.

Nope, those were the facts, not opinions.

By what standard? Can you give us more than just opinion? In short, what kind of factual evidence do you have that supports this hypothesis. It's gotta be more than mere observation. If you say that, then explain the following.

By NBA superstar standards, DUH. Observation is the only evidence you need and the 2010 playoffs were evidence enough of Tim Duncan's decline as a dominant player. If Tim is not dominant, the Spurs aren't contenders. A fanboy like yourself naturally will point to per minute statistics of "facts" while ignoring the reality of what took place on the floor. I'm going to guess you're the typical moron who understands basketball through the aid of a stat sheet.

So if his per minute stats are as healthy as ever, then how has he declined too much. I mean, if you want to talk about per minute stats on the decline, one only has to look at Bean. Mathematically...that is factual evidence.
Using the NBA's official stat engine, one can see a statistic called Effectiveness. In essence, it's a simple calculation. It goes like so: [(Pts+Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl) – (Missed FG+Missed FT+TO)] / Games Played. Going 1 step further, 1 can then change the divosor to Minutes Played instead of Games Played to get an Effectivess Per Minute.

It's easy math, an even though the NBA doesn't list it, we can do it here in plain sight.
Bean for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 27.65 * 77 Games Played = 2129 Total Score / 3142 Minutes Played = .678
Tim for 06-07 EFF Score Per Game is 25.39 * 80 Games Played = 2031 Total Score / 2728 Minutes Played = .744

Bean for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 26.60 * 82 Games Played = 2181 Total Score / 3193 Minutes Played = .683
Tim for 07-08 EFF Score Per Game is 24.60 * 78 Games Played = 1918 Total Score / 2653 Minutes Played = .723


Bean for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.18 * 82 Games Played = 1982 Total Score / 2965 Minutes Played = .668
Tim for 08-09 EFF Score Per Game is 24.2 * 75 Games Played = 1815 Total Score / 2525 Minutes Played = .719

Bean for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 22.89 * 73 Games Played = 1670 Total Score / 2835 Minutes Played = .589
Tim for 09-10 EFF Score Per Game is 23.42 * 78 Games Played = 1826 Total Score / 2438 Minutes Played = .749

It's Math aka Factual Evidence that it's Bean and Not Tim that is Declining. I await your counterpoint.

I was right! You are a run of the mill stat moron! I had an inkling of hope you wouldn't be this dumb, I suppose because I am in constant search of a worthy adversary, but it is what it is.

Using these moronic irrelevant formulas to break down the game will never be apart of my language. Effing efficiency ratings, lol. When will the idiots ever learn?

How did you manage to measure the intangibles of the game with your efficiency breakdown? Heart, hustle, clutch, defense? A rebound collected in the 1st quarter is the same as a clutch board made on a crucial defensive stance in the 4th quarter? Same with shots made, steals, blocks, assists, etc etc. How are these important distinctions separated in your "efficiency statistics?"

And defense? How are proper defensive elements measured? When a player successfully cuts off a driving player or alters a shot just enough to cause a miss, how is this taken into account? What about defensive rotations that are made or failed to be made fast enough? How do we determine if players are playing the game "the right way?" How do we weigh making the most important plays of the game versus just run of the mill plays? It can't be done. It won't be done. The game is too complex and their are way too many intangibles to ever put the game in its entirety into mathematical context.

Stats are a useful, limited guide but any time anyone starts rationalizing in stat geek I immediately understand their brain's limitation on the game.

Couldn't the same thing be said about Bean's oft-injured knee? What about Bynum? In essence, that can happen to anybody. But for now, Manu wasn't injured last season and comes in well rested. The same can't be said for either Bynum or Bean or even Luke Walton's back.

Bean's oft injured knee hasn't caused him to miss big chunks of the season and Bean plays through the pain well enough to win championships. Manu's hang nail re-appears and he's back on the pine for weeks while Spurs fans resurrect the slew of excuses for why they'd really win if Manu had played. If I had a nickel every time a Spurs fan cried excuses about a Manu injury...

And Bynum is injury prone.... how has that inhibited the Lakers success?

Cool Luke Walton comment, a player who has absolutely no impact on winning or losing... You realize I picked Manu for a reason and not say, Matt Bonner, right?

Curious to see the factual evidence that backs this up. Provide it. He was hurt with knick-knack injuries all season starting with National Team commitments all the way until the playoffs. What's factual is that if you're hurting the whole season, then your stats will reflect that. And when you say no defense, then why is it that when Parker guarded Steve Nash that Nash played worse as opposed to him playing better when defended by noted defender, George Hill? So...prove your statement with factual evidence.

I called him:

soft - Are you suggesting he's tough?
euro - Is he African because he's black?
chucker - is he a distributing PG or a scoring PG?
no defense - because he plays horrendous man to man defense and has incredibly poor defensive instincts. Funny that you'd point to a single game where he played seemingly effective defense on Steve Nash, despite the Suns winning. Is Parker now a better defender than Hill based on this one game in your objective, non-homeristic eyes?

Worst among playoff teams. I'll agree. But this system is where one, normally, benefits from time and a 2nd season. It's no guarantee but improvement is a to be determined. I mean this guy ain't Vujacic, a never was, he's just a guy who didn't acclimate smoothly. Again, this one is to be determined.

Vujacic sucks, doesn't bother me one bit to admit that because I am not a homer moron who needs to justify everything for my team. Moreover critical thinking forces me to acknowledge that Vujacic's role and impact on the Lakers is not the same as what Jefferson's was expected to be.

When SA acquired RJ I laughed, literally. I mocked Spurs fans on that other board for months and I was told this meant I was now "scared of the revitalized Spurs" and that he now made them "the best Spurs team of the Duncan era" among a great many other things. You have to understand how much I relish in pointing out this miserable failure by the Spurs FO compounded by the worst contract extention I've seen many years.

It's been determined pal; it is a complete and utter failure that will only get worse over the next 4 years.

Singularly speaking, there isn't a Bruce Bowen on the team(The best Perimeter defender for the 2000's as evidenced by his continual placements on ALL-NBA D Team) But there are some candidates on the team who seemingly have the right tools. This part I'll defer but this too...is a to be determined.

Singularly speaking huh? Lol. No, sorry, there isn't one player on the Spurs roster who comes close to offering the defensive ability of Bruce Bowen, collectively or "singularly." That's a gaping hole in the Spurs roster and it will be exploited when it comes time to compete.

Wrong in all sense of the word. You have to quantify this one. Opp FG% is affected just as much by the aforementioned perimeter defender AND a good 2nd big. When your 2nd big is Matt Bonner, then there is a problem. The 2nd big this year is a combo of DeJuan Blair and Tiago Splitter. Just by being physical, the Spurs have shored up the interior. Also, you can't base it off the PHX series. Gentry's plan the whole time was to switch to have the Big defend the perimeter. When that happened Duncan had too, too much ground to cover if a pass was thrown to the low post. So it's more a design scheme than Tim's physical attributes. Had Channing Frye been as nuclear hot against the LAL as he was against the Spurs, then either Pau or Bynum would have had the same issue. Alas, Frye blew his wad against the Spurs and relaxed because PHX had finally slayed their Devil.

WRONG. You do NOT have to quantify this. You watch how he plays the game. You observe if he effectively rotates to the right position as quickly and successfully as he did say 7 years ago when he was one of the best in the league at doing just that.

"Just being physical" does not protect the paint. Dejuan Blair is strong but stupid and cannot rotate and block shots on an elite level. Neither can Tiago Splitter who's defense is subpar as well. He has some potential to improve but I wouldn't put money on him becoming a "defensive presence."

But getting back to Tim who is no longer a 1st team all NBA / DPOY type player as evidenced by the NBA's voting and recognition this past season and the Phoenix Suns series where unknown back up PG Goran Dragic literally shredded the once vaunted Spurs interior defense anchored by Timothy Duncan.

I've explained that up above. It's not really about blocked shots as opposed to making the opposition take tough shots. All that will be revealed in Opp FG%. No one gives a if they're team gets the most blocks if they ain't winning anything. OKC had the most Blocks Per Game by team last season at 5.9 Per Game. The Clippers finished in 3rd place at 5.7 Per Game and didn't even sniff playoffs. And while the vaunted LAL finished tied for 15th with 4.9 BPG, you make it seem as if San Antonio finished far, far below. That would be incorrect. They finished at 4.6 BPG with Bonner playing significant minutes. Both McDyess and Bonner will be playing less, while Splitter and Blair get duty to run post area with Duncan.

No, you rationalized like Spurs fanboy. Blocked shots are not necessarily the end all be all of interior defense but every elite team needs the threat a lane protector in order to establish elite team defense. Tim had been that guy for years but he no longer protects the paint with the same authority. Not only have his blocks gone down but so have his altered shots. It happens to everyone as they get old; you just aren't as fast on your feet.

So...factual evidence seems to suggest you've overhyped your team's blocking capablitilies. Considering you have 3 close to or taller,7-footers who play significant minutes, whereas the Spurs went in with just Duncan at 6-11.

Nope, not at all. The Lakers play elite defense. See the 2010 NBA playoffs as evidence. If you were rational minded you'd acknowledge that fact before you proclaimed anything to the contrary.

I'm curious about this one too. The NBA has been pining for this guy since he was 18. If he was a LAL guy, then he'd be hyped as the next White Hope but since he's coming to San Antonio, then you just assume he's no good. Typical LAL bandwagon fan logic. It reeks of Steve Blake being hyped as a GREAT defender when, in fact, he's just SLIGHTLY better than Fisher. It's an improvement true, but TP didn't have a problem going around Blake or Fisher in the past, and fully healthy, he's going to attack with infinite ease around either of those guys. But back to Splitter. What he is, is a smart player with a great understanding of Flex cut and Pick & Roll offenses. His passing ability will surpise you(Trust me...you don't know how adept a passer he is, but some say...it approaches that of Russian Legend, Arvydas Sabonis) and his ability to read and cover P & R attackers is really good. Does that amount to lots of blocks? Maybe, maybe not...but it will result in lower FG% for opponents. If you look at Luis Scola's indoctrination into the NBA, you have an approximation of what Splitter can give a team, except that he's much taller than Scola and will play in the interior more often. In the World's, A small sample true, but still one that can be referenced as factual evidence, Splitter held his own against Team USA and in the interior, he proved to be too much for the likes of Lamar Odom, Kevin Love, & Tyson Chandler.

Really? That's your poor woe is me, we're San Antonio not LA violin playing? lol

Please. If you can break down the game based on observation you can determine what you need to know about any player. I've seen Tiago play and he's ok. He's not a game changer but he can be a contributor if he picks up the NBA game and fits in with his teammates. That in a nuts will be how his season will play out. His passing ability is solid... Sabonis-level? lol Uhh, no. Funny that you've "heard" it could be at that level.

If you've seen him play you wouldn't have to "hear" anything. Just another example of overzealous fanboy hype via the internet.

All in all, we're still in agreement the Spurs are not championship contenders this year though.

[Man In Black]

Dude...such harsh aggression. So it's all about observation for you and just that.

Observation without measurement doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Riddle me this Toby...Would you say that the Lakers beat the Celtics dominatingly or did they just get by on the skin of their teeth?

YOU SAID FACTUAL EVIDENCE. Observation alone, is not factual evidence. So...call me a stat guy but I observe too, but again, without measurement it don't mean .

You may believe you're superior but in reality, you're just another JAFO bu hey...I'm willing to talk ANYTIME as long as the context stays on basketball.

[history2b]

Dude...such harsh aggression. So it's all about observation for you and just that.

Observation without measurement doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Riddle me this Toby...Would you say that the Lakers beat the Celtics dominatingly or did they just get by on the skin of their teeth?

YOU SAID FACTUAL EVIDENCE. Observation alone, is not factual evidence. So...call me a stat guy but I observe too, but again, without measurement it don't mean .

You may believe you're superior but in reality, you're just another JAFO bu hey...I'm willing to talk ANYTIME as long as the context stays on basketball.

Do coaches observe their team when coaching or do they go into the stat room looking a statisitical efficiency ratings while the game is going on?

The measurement is on court success, lol. And again you completely ignore the vast majority of the game if you're waiting for "factual evidence" of things that cannot be measured in the first place.

How is Bruce Bowen the best defender of the 2000s? Was it just magic?

[Ditty]

wow you really take the nba too serious brah do you have anything seriously better to do to write an whole essay jeez its a game?