Raising the bar thread: Better career, Steve Nash or Dirk Nowitzki?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

lol, Dallas took the ball to the hole more in that video than they did all of last season.

[monosylab1k]

watching that video is great partly because I forgot that Jerry Stackhouse could actually make those pull up jumpers back then.

[Poirot]

For a guy who doesn't bring a lot to the table, he sure did a lot more team wise with less help than Nash did with more.

Read my post again before you spew garbage. Thanks.

[diego]

"Substantially" more success? Maybe not. But still more. When you compare players, you find those differences, whether it's by a large margin or a very small one. Dirk and Nash are comparable players. The one Finals appearance Dirk has is a distinction that does separate him. And it's extremely important to point out that on that 2005-06 Mavs team, the next best players were Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Not bad role players, but certainly not star players or legitimate (perennial) all star caliber players. That's a big reason why Dirk gets a lot of credit for taking the Mavs that far.

Yeah, thats why i agreed in my post that dirk taking his team to the finals is worth more to me than nash's extra MVP trophy. However, its a little misleading to say that howard and terry were his next best players, because they both suck now. for those playoffs, terry averaged just under 19pts, 3 rebounds and 4 assists, howard had 16.7pts, 7.4 reb and shot 37% from 3. Yeah, they're not perennial all stars or star players, but they played at a high level that year.
Do you think that, if both teams had switched terry+howard/marion+diaw for the 06 playoffs, that means the mavs win the ship and the suns dont make the WCF? I dont think so (well, maybe the suns dont make the WCF, seeing as Diaw was their primary big man those PO )

Nash had better all around talent on those Suns teams that fit the Suns system. Dirk had smokey and turtlehead. And while their defense held them back, the Suns were held back just as much by the fact that getting deeper into the playoffs they weren't able to force their style of play on better defensive teams. It wasn't just a fault of their lack of defense. They couldn't get into an offensive pace for 110-115 points every game and win. That's as much a blame on their ability to force their offensive style. And that also goes to Nash's abilities on offense and his ability to command the offense and style of offense against better defenses in the playoffs.

did nash have more talent on his team than dirk last year? IMO barely, definitely better coaching, yet mavs lost to the spurs and the suns destroyed them. Also, in 05 and 07 at least, the suns problem wasnt their pace- IIRC, they were able to score 100+ on the spurs regularly, their problem was that the spurs beat them at their own game. sure, come the 4th Q the spurs would force a slower half court game but its not like nash was easily neutered just by running back on D. bruce bowen deserves a lot of credit for doing a great job on him.

I think it was 05 that the suns had MVP, COY, 3 all stars, 6th man, just about every award, and the spurs beat them... I made fun of plenty of suns fans about that. But those are just awards, les, and dont really matter much once the game starts. the same thing with "perennial all stars". Is Tmac still in the "perennial all star" category? what about say, chris kaman, is he 5x worse than Amare (by all star selections)? In 07, how many all star/mvp/all nba players did GSW have?

Dirk is actually a solid rebounder for a PF. He's not an elite rebounder like Duncan or Garnett. But, especially as a defensive rebounder, it's a flat out lie to say he's mediocre. He doesn't get as many offensive rebounds as many PFs because he does play out on the perimeter on offense. But check his defensive rebounding stats, and you'll see there's no way he should be considered a "mediocre" rebounder. Career-wise, he's a better defensive rebounder than guys like Pau Gasol and Chris Bosh and in the same neighborhood as Carlos Boozer. It's the fact that he plays out on the perimeter on offense that his overall rebounding isn't much better. But to say he's a mediocre rebounder sounds silly to me.

excuse me, i misworded myself. My point was, that Nash is consistently elite (top 3) in assists, and that dirk cant say the same for his rebounding. Nash is currently 8th all time in assists. dirk is 62nd all time in rebounding.

obviously, dirk has better scoring numbers and is 27th all time in points. but I dont put all that much stock into them because he is basically a shooter (whereas nash is a setup guy), and % wise, nash is actually the better shooter.

again, to sum up, i think dirk's had the better career, but that nash is to me the better player because he can set guys up extremely well, and score pretty well, while dirk can score very well and rebound pretty well. its easier IMO to build around a good setup PG with a good shot, than it is to build around a jumpshooting PF who barely makes an impact inside (with defensive boards).

also, the same way you can argue that nash didnt make an impact till he went went to phoenix/ d'antoni, you can also argue that the phoenix org. has committed many mistakes, many of them from being cheap, while dirk's had mark cuban's big wallet build several teams around him.

[Killakobe81]

I would go with Nowitzki without thinking too much about it..he has been better for longer than Nash, he was a star for a few seasons prior to Nash's breakout, and he's been better by a decent margin for the last 2 years or so as well..

They are both underrated from a historical standpoint though..

Nice pic of Brother Muzone ...you just picked up a couple of cool points in my book Harlem, too bad you will probably lose them with some kind of Kobe bashin' Lebron love-fest elsewhere in this forum. But the wire is the best show in the history of telivison and it's not even close. A more difficult question than Nash vs. dirk is which is the est season of the "The wire"
It has to be 1, 3 or 4 tough call ...but i say 3 because of Muzone and Omar teaming up.

[Greg Oden]

Read my post again before you spew garbage. Thanks.

dirk4mvp read it again. It was as re ed the second time as it was the first. You're welcome.

[Poirot]

Then obviously Dirk is much more than just a "seven foot shooter" because he's considerably better than Bargnani. And Bargnani is no slouch himself, he's developed into a pretty solid player.

You just reiterated my point. Dirk is more than just a 7 foot shooter. Same can't be said about Bargnani, who can't rebound, defend, or elevate his team.

Dirk4MVP and this idiot poster above me thinks I'm disparaging Dirk, when I'm doing just the opposite. Sigh. Let me explain.

For a guy who doesn't bring a lot to the table, he sure did a lot more team wise with less help than Nash did with more.

Nowhere in my point did I say DIRK didn't bring a lot to the table. What I said was that just being a seven foot player who can shoot doesn't necessarily make you a special player. I explicity pointed out that Dirk IS a special talent, and that he IS more than just a run-of-the-mill seven footer who can shoot from the outside. I hate having to explain myself to mental stillborns.