wth happened to raising the bar

[YoungB]

So the guy who understands and applies statistics is the idiot while the guys who say you cannot use stats and arguments are impossible to quantify are smart.

Now I have seen it all

I understand statistics, I just don't see them as an end all/be all of every argument. I've shown several instances on this site where advanced stats can be flawed, and sometimes it takes a little detective work to see why, since so many things go into the formulas for advanced stats. Someone like you just see's the stats and assumes someone elses work can be held as fact in every situation. If you want to talk stats, and only stats, Amare's are better, and always have been. I already posted the win shares, where when you compare complete seasons between the two (excluding microfracture, rookie years, etc.) Amare's lowest total is better than Bosh's best.

[DPG21920]

You still really don't get it. Both players are the same as they were a few months ago, not much has changed. You only PERCEIVED that it was close, when in reality it was smoke and mirrors because Bosh is the type of player that can put up nice numbers as a #1 option on a ty team like Toronto without ever translating his play to wins. Amare on the other hand has always been a good ball player who can contribute no matter what team he's on.

Saying that not much has changed implies something has changed. Saying the players are the same implies nothing has changed.

If nothing has changed and something has changed, which one is it?

All of the stats perceived it was close along with the rest of the NBA.

[DPG21920]

I understand statistics, I just don't see them as an end all/be all of every argument. I've shown several instances on this site where advanced stats can be flawed, and sometimes it takes a little detective work to see why, since so many things go into the formulas for advanced stats. Someone like you just see's the stats and assumes someone elses work can be held as fact in every situation. If you want to talk stats, and only stats, Amare's are better, and always have been. I already posted the win shares, where when you compare complete seasons between the two (excluding microfracture, rookie years, etc.) Amare's lowest total is better than Bosh's best.

No, you haven't and you don't understand them. They are not an end all be all and neither myself or HH are using them as such. But they are a way to logically quantify an argument and it sure as beats "I just know it to be true...".

Have Amare's stats always been so much better than Bosh's that it wasn't close?

Bosh's defensive win shares>Amare's.

Bosh's win shares this years>Amare's.

[Roddy Beaubois]

I think picklebreath wins dis one just for never taking the mavfan/dok bait that DPG has thrown out there probably 500 times now.

[Cane]

They are comparable players but the comparison should lead into one saying Amar'e > Bosh.

Amar'e played like he was the best big man in the 2nd half of last season which carried the Suns in the ultra-compe ive West to a high playoffs seed whereas Bosh was putting up imo "good stats on a bad team" and also milked sitting on the bench during the end of the season instead of playing...which is understandable considering he probably knew he was Miami Heat-bound but definitely a knock in this comparison.

Amar'e imo had a much better season especially with the wins in the regular season and playoffs and is a better player when you ignore his injury history. Bosh on the other hand seems like a perennial loser of a player - "good stats on a bad team" kind of guy unless he's part of a big 3.

[DPG21920]

The voters who elected Amare to 2nd all NBA while leaving Bosh off all 3 teams didn't perceive it to be close.

The Suns, Amare's own team who got to see him play every day didn't even want him back or perceive it to be close.

What does that say about a player when the team that knows him the most doesn't think he is a max player and lets him walk?

What does it say that the super team in MIA wants Bosh over Amare and the best players in the league chose Bosh over Amare and have a better record than the Knicks with Bosh putting up better overall win shares and defensive win shares than Amare?

[YoungB]

Bosh's defensive win shares>Amare's.

Bosh's win shares this years>Amare's.

This year is still young? Bosh being sliiiightly less re ed on defense in previous years does nothing to close the gap when you look at the big picture?

[DPG21920]

I think picklebreath wins dis one just for never taking the mavfan/dok bait that DPG has thrown out there probably 500 times now.

Huh?

[DPG21920]

They are comparable players but the comparison should lead into one saying Amar'e > Bosh.

Amar'e played like he was the best big man in the 2nd half of last season which carried the Suns in the ultra-compe ive West to a high playoffs seed whereas Bosh was putting up imo "good stats on a bad team" and also milked sitting on the bench during the end of the season instead of playing...which is understandable considering he probably knew he was Miami Heat-bound but definitely a knock in this comparison.

Amar'e imo had a much better season especially with the wins in the regular season and playoffs and is a better player when you ignore his injury history. Bosh on the other hand seems like a perennial loser of a player - "good stats on a bad team" kind of guy unless he's part of a big 3.

So was Gasol on the Grizz and now he is MVPau

[DPG21920]

This year is still young? Bosh being sliiiightly less re ed on defense in previous years does nothing to close the gap when you look at the big picture?

Well you just don't get it. You still never answered the question directly. Before this year, was the gap, by all measurable accounts, between Amare and Bosh close? Yes or no?

[YoungB]

Well you just don't get it. You still never answered the question directly. Before this year, was the gap, by all measurable accounts, between Amare and Bosh close? Yes or no?

No you only perceived it as such. All smoke and mirrors.

[DPG21920]

Then you are still an idiot. Because nothing you have said or done disproves that gap wasn't close. Nothing.

[YoungB]

Then you are still an idiot. Because nothing you have said or done disproves that gap wasn't close. Nothing.

Win shares. Bosh could always try his hardest to put up similar stats, but it could never translate to more winshares.

[YoungB]

Besides the fact that this whole "you haven't proven anything " argument is re ed, because you haven't done anything to prove that Bosh was ever in Amare's league to begin with. Nothing. It's only just now becoming apparently to you slower folks.

[DPG21920]

Win shares. Bosh could always try his hardest to put up similar stats, but it could never translate to more winshares.

So win shares this year don't matter and allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll of the other statistical measures don't matter and you are saying that winshares in and of themselves disproves the notion that the gap was close ?

You clearly don't get it.

[DPG21920]

There's no factual way to disprove someone who says "tomorrow, when I wake up, the sun is gonna be green", but anyone with any semblance of a brain knows that the sky has been blue for as long as he can remember and knows that there's no logical backing behind the thought that the sky would be green tomorrow.

There is most definitely ways to prove it if it existed.

[DPG21920]

Besides the fact that this whole "you haven't proven anything " argument is re ed, because you haven't done anything to prove that Bosh was ever in Amare's league to begin with. Nothing. It's only just now becoming apparently to you slower folks.

Yes we did. Look back at all of our analysis.

[DPG21920]

I think picklebreath wins dis one just for never taking the mavfan/dok bait that DPG has thrown out there probably 500 times now.

What bait, tbh? I am really not sure what you are going on about. Are you talking about the fact I said PB is piggy backing an argument that is not his own?

[YoungB]

So win shares this year don't matter and allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll of the other statistical measures don't matter and you are saying that winshares in and of themselves disproves the notion that the gap was close ?

You clearly don't get it.

No I'm just sarcastically proving a point to you that anyone can use stats in their argument and it doesn't automatically proclaim them the UNDISPUTED CHAMP! I could give a less about win shares, but since your whole argument revolves around similar statistics in years past...

Hey I've got a question for you. Since Jordan and Kobe have similar stats, does that mean they are equals?

[HarlemHeat37]

Last year Amare became the #1 option during the season and they went on a tear once he got the alpha dog role. Sorry that your brain is too small to comprehend it, but if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know the Suns were very good when Amare was the #1 last year.

Amare wasn't the clear #1 option..Nash still had the ball a large portion of the time..you could argue that Amare was the Suns best player, but having a #1a option/elite PG to handle the ball obviously played a large factor in the Suns success last year and in previous years..

Amare has only finished ahead of Nash in MVP voting once..last season, Nash finished ahead of him, IIRC..clearly, he was never a clear #1..


I don't understand why you're using this anti-stats argument..my argument hasn't been centered around stats..

YoungB said that Bosh was a jump shooter, which I proved was clearly false..a lot of stats can lie without the proper back up, but how can "amount of jump shots" and "amount of points in the paint" lie?..Bosh was a heavy scorer in the paint before, top 5 in the NBA, half of his offense came in the paint..how is that being ignored here?..it was clearly a false statement..

I only brought up Win Shares because somebody else brought it up first..

I only brought up Nash's impact because of the statement that "Bosh as a #1= 1st round exit, Amare as a #1= contender" in the past..Nash obviously plays a part..

The rest of my argument has been centered around watching games..somebody claiming that they "knew" Bosh would suck off the ball, even though the Raptors never played him off the ball, is obviously a reach..

Claiming that Calderon and Turkoglu is enough for him to play off the ball is clearly false, and comes from somebody that doesn't have an idea of how the Raptors system works..


Again, I said Amare was better than Bosh before the season..clearly from that list that picklebreath linked before, "toss-up" or "close" was clearly the majority opinion..

Also, bringing up All-NBA teams is irrelevant..team record plays a huge part in it..the only time Bosh's team had a good record, he made the All-NBA 2nd team, IIRC..

[DPG21920]

No, that is not what you are doing since we have clear rebuttals to your attempts and you don't with ours.

[YoungB]

Yes we did. Look back at all of our analysis.

You've proven a lot less than DoK and now picklebreath, tbh.

[DPG21920]

Your analysis involves posting a bunch of nerdy advanced stats created by people who have never played basketball in their lives.

You analysis from a guy who self proclaimed "I have been wrong many times" and says "nothing can be proven".

That is like you saying a guy is a bad shooter, I show you the stat FG% = 50% and you say "stats can lie!!!!!!!!!!, I just know he is a bad shooter nerd!!!!!!!!!"

[DPG21920]

You've proven a lot less than DoK and now picklebreath, tbh.

Nice troll job , I cannot believe I fell for this for so long. I don't get got often by trolling, but you did it.

[YoungB]

Nice troll job , I cannot believe I fell for this for so long. I don't get got often by trolling, but you did it.

Thanks brah, but Amare really was always better. I might get your goat here and there but facts are facts, it's just hard for the casual observer to view things in a vaccuum when both players play in different situations. I don't fault you for not possessing the awesome cranial capacity that we do.