Kobe and Duncan's respective rankings on the all-time playoff leaderboards.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i assume kobe found out where duncan got his success from, so he couldnt marry one so he had to go colorado....

[midnightpulp]

LOL Ok whatever floats your boat ... some of the spur fans (you) really have an issue with Kobe's place in history comapred to Tim's. Even if most logical people argue that MJ is better ...kobe is in the debate and duncan is not and it KILLS yall.
That is really why many of you hate on Kobe or Mark Jackson or anyone that points out the obvious that kobe is the best player since MJ... and it is hilarious.
Duncan is a great player just not as great as Kobe ...you can pull up all the advanced stats that you want ... it doesnt change history.

Kobe's not in the MJ debate. That's a media fabrication for the purpose of ratings that only dumbass homers fall for. Kobe's not even the greatest Laker, so how the can he logically be compared to Jordan? He can't. The media throws this out there and all the Laker fans and haters alike tune in en masse, guaranteeing good ratings.

It doesn't kill me at all. I rely on reality for facts, not media hyperbole.

And the facts are:

Duncan: Better overall playoff stats. More Finals MVPs. 2 top 15 all-time Finals series performances. Guess who made the worst list?

"With the good sometimes comes the bad. Here are the 10 worst Finals performances since the merger, in chronological order:

Henry Bibby, Philadelphia, 1977
Sixers vs. Blazers -- Bibby's PER 7.4
Bibby was awful in both Finals appearances -- he had a 5.6 PER in 1980 -- but this one takes the cake because he played 38 minutes a game and still couldn't do anything right. For the series, the Sixers point guard shot 31.3 percent and averaged just 4.2 assists per game.

John Johnson, Seattle 1978
Sonics vs. Bullets -- Johnson's PER 7.9
Dennis Johnson's 0-for-14 Game 7 is more famous, but for the series he wasn't even the worst Johnson on the Sonics. John Johnson shot 38.2 percent in the seven games and only took three free throws all series -- on 68 shots -- for a miserable 38.9 true shooting percentage.

Michael Cooper, L.A. Lakers 1988
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Cooper's PER 1.3
The Lakers repeated, but let's just say Coop wasn't a big reason. He shot 9-for-44 for the series, including 3-of-20 on 3s, and in more than 25 minutes a game, he put up 3.7 points, 1.6 boards and 2.1 assists. His only positive contribution was getting Isiah Thomas to sprain an ankle after Zeke landed on Cooper's foot in Game 6.

Mark Aguirre, Detroit, 1989
Pistons vs. Lakers -- Aguirre's PER 5.8
As with Bibby, Aguirre has two contenders for this list -- he came back with a 9.3 PER in the 1990 Finals against Portland. His effort against L.A. takes the prize because even in going up against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp, he still shot 12-for-33 for the series, with only eight foul shots.

Kevin Johnson, Phoenix, 1993
Suns vs. Bulls -- Johnson's PER 9.8
Although he did a halfway-decent job guarding Michael Jordan, KJ's offensive game completely tanked. He dipped to 42.3 percent shooting, committed 4.23 turnovers a game and twice came up short in the clutch. Johnson dropped an inbound pass at the end of Game 4 to seal Chicago's win, and then he had his last-second shot ed to close out Game 6.

Nick Anderson, Orlando, 1995
Magic vs. Rockets -- Anderson's PER 11.4
Anderson shot 36.0 percent in the series and 30 percent from the line, including his infamous four straight misses in Game 1 that allowed Houston to steal the opener and set the stage for a Rockets sweep.

Larry Johnson, New York, 1999
Knicks vs. Spurs -- Johnson's PER 3.9
"Grandmama" played like an old lady in this one, shooting 14-for-49 for the series and finishing with more turnovers than assists. Included in his "effort" was a 2-for-18 performance from 3-point range.

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio, 2003
Spurs vs. Nets -- Jackson's PER 6.7
Jackson was a huge part of the Spurs' run to the Finals, but then he was a train wreck once they got there. It wasn't just that he shot 37.8 percent, or that he earned only 12 free-throw attempts from his 61 shots. Jackson made 26 turnovers in the six games -- an amazing total for a player whose main job was to spot up as a shooter -- and finished with more miscues than baskets (23).

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3."

You might think it's "hating," but it's not. There's just no evidence to suggest that Kobe is greater player than Duncan. Not any. Sorry.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe's not in the MJ debate. That's a media fabrication for the purpose of ratings that only dumbass homers fall for. Kobe's not even the greatest Laker, so how the can he logically be compared to Jordan? He can't. The media throws this out there and all the Laker fans and haters alike tune in en masse, guaranteeing good ratings.

It doesn't kill me at all. I rely on reality for facts, not media hyperbole.

And the facts are:

Duncan: Better overall playoff stats. More Finals MVPs. 2 top 15 all-time Finals series performances. Guess who made the worst list?

"With the good sometimes comes the bad. Here are the 10 worst Finals performances since the merger, in chronological order:

Henry Bibby, Philadelphia, 1977
Sixers vs. Blazers -- Bibby's PER 7.4
Bibby was awful in both Finals appearances -- he had a 5.6 PER in 1980 -- but this one takes the cake because he played 38 minutes a game and still couldn't do anything right. For the series, the Sixers point guard shot 31.3 percent and averaged just 4.2 assists per game.

John Johnson, Seattle 1978
Sonics vs. Bullets -- Johnson's PER 7.9
Dennis Johnson's 0-for-14 Game 7 is more famous, but for the series he wasn't even the worst Johnson on the Sonics. John Johnson shot 38.2 percent in the seven games and only took three free throws all series -- on 68 shots -- for a miserable 38.9 true shooting percentage.

Michael Cooper, L.A. Lakers 1988
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Cooper's PER 1.3
The Lakers repeated, but let's just say Coop wasn't a big reason. He shot 9-for-44 for the series, including 3-of-20 on 3s, and in more than 25 minutes a game, he put up 3.7 points, 1.6 boards and 2.1 assists. His only positive contribution was getting Isiah Thomas to sprain an ankle after Zeke landed on Cooper's foot in Game 6.

Mark Aguirre, Detroit, 1989
Pistons vs. Lakers -- Aguirre's PER 5.8
As with Bibby, Aguirre has two contenders for this list -- he came back with a 9.3 PER in the 1990 Finals against Portland. His effort against L.A. takes the prize because even in going up against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp, he still shot 12-for-33 for the series, with only eight foul shots.

Kevin Johnson, Phoenix, 1993
Suns vs. Bulls -- Johnson's PER 9.8
Although he did a halfway-decent job guarding Michael Jordan, KJ's offensive game completely tanked. He dipped to 42.3 percent shooting, committed 4.23 turnovers a game and twice came up short in the clutch. Johnson dropped an inbound pass at the end of Game 4 to seal Chicago's win, and then he had his last-second shot ed to close out Game 6.

Nick Anderson, Orlando, 1995
Magic vs. Rockets -- Anderson's PER 11.4
Anderson shot 36.0 percent in the series and 30 percent from the line, including his infamous four straight misses in Game 1 that allowed Houston to steal the opener and set the stage for a Rockets sweep.

Larry Johnson, New York, 1999
Knicks vs. Spurs -- Johnson's PER 3.9
"Grandmama" played like an old lady in this one, shooting 14-for-49 for the series and finishing with more turnovers than assists. Included in his "effort" was a 2-for-18 performance from 3-point range.

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio, 2003
Spurs vs. Nets -- Jackson's PER 6.7
Jackson was a huge part of the Spurs' run to the Finals, but then he was a train wreck once they got there. It wasn't just that he shot 37.8 percent, or that he earned only 12 free-throw attempts from his 61 shots. Jackson made 26 turnovers in the six games -- an amazing total for a player whose main job was to spot up as a shooter -- and finished with more miscues than baskets (23).

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3."

You might think it's "hating," but it's not. There's just no evidence to suggest that Kobe is greater player than Duncan. Not any. Sorry.

Doth protests too fiercely ...
i also agree Magic is greater than kobe, said it many times on here.
notice i said Kobe was the best since MJ ...Magic played BEFORE MJ genius ...

[Killakobe81]

Kobe's not in the MJ debate. That's a media fabrication for the purpose of ratings that only dumbass homers fall for. Kobe's not even the greatest Laker, so how the can he logically be compared to Jordan? He can't. The media throws this out there and all the Laker fans and haters alike tune in en masse, guaranteeing good ratings.

It doesn't kill me at all. I rely on reality for facts, not media hyperbole.

And the facts are:

Duncan: Better overall playoff stats. More Finals MVPs. 2 top 15 all-time Finals series performances. Guess who made the worst list?

"With the good sometimes comes the bad. Here are the 10 worst Finals performances since the merger, in chronological order:

Henry Bibby, Philadelphia, 1977
Sixers vs. Blazers -- Bibby's PER 7.4
Bibby was awful in both Finals appearances -- he had a 5.6 PER in 1980 -- but this one takes the cake because he played 38 minutes a game and still couldn't do anything right. For the series, the Sixers point guard shot 31.3 percent and averaged just 4.2 assists per game.

John Johnson, Seattle 1978
Sonics vs. Bullets -- Johnson's PER 7.9
Dennis Johnson's 0-for-14 Game 7 is more famous, but for the series he wasn't even the worst Johnson on the Sonics. John Johnson shot 38.2 percent in the seven games and only took three free throws all series -- on 68 shots -- for a miserable 38.9 true shooting percentage.

Michael Cooper, L.A. Lakers 1988
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Cooper's PER 1.3
The Lakers repeated, but let's just say Coop wasn't a big reason. He shot 9-for-44 for the series, including 3-of-20 on 3s, and in more than 25 minutes a game, he put up 3.7 points, 1.6 boards and 2.1 assists. His only positive contribution was getting Isiah Thomas to sprain an ankle after Zeke landed on Cooper's foot in Game 6.

Mark Aguirre, Detroit, 1989
Pistons vs. Lakers -- Aguirre's PER 5.8
As with Bibby, Aguirre has two contenders for this list -- he came back with a 9.3 PER in the 1990 Finals against Portland. His effort against L.A. takes the prize because even in going up against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp, he still shot 12-for-33 for the series, with only eight foul shots.

Kevin Johnson, Phoenix, 1993
Suns vs. Bulls -- Johnson's PER 9.8
Although he did a halfway-decent job guarding Michael Jordan, KJ's offensive game completely tanked. He dipped to 42.3 percent shooting, committed 4.23 turnovers a game and twice came up short in the clutch. Johnson dropped an inbound pass at the end of Game 4 to seal Chicago's win, and then he had his last-second shot ed to close out Game 6.

Nick Anderson, Orlando, 1995
Magic vs. Rockets -- Anderson's PER 11.4
Anderson shot 36.0 percent in the series and 30 percent from the line, including his infamous four straight misses in Game 1 that allowed Houston to steal the opener and set the stage for a Rockets sweep.

Larry Johnson, New York, 1999
Knicks vs. Spurs -- Johnson's PER 3.9
"Grandmama" played like an old lady in this one, shooting 14-for-49 for the series and finishing with more turnovers than assists. Included in his "effort" was a 2-for-18 performance from 3-point range.

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio, 2003
Spurs vs. Nets -- Jackson's PER 6.7
Jackson was a huge part of the Spurs' run to the Finals, but then he was a train wreck once they got there. It wasn't just that he shot 37.8 percent, or that he earned only 12 free-throw attempts from his 61 shots. Jackson made 26 turnovers in the six games -- an amazing total for a player whose main job was to spot up as a shooter -- and finished with more miscues than baskets (23).

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3."

You might think it's "hating," but it's not. There's just no evidence to suggest that Kobe is greater player than Duncan. Not any. Sorry.

Nope you are NOt hating just obsessed ...

[midnightpulp]

Doth protests too fiercely ...
i also agree Magic is greater than kobe, said it many times on here.
notice i said Kobe was the best since MJ ...Magic played BEFORE MJ genius ...

No. You said Kobe was "in the MJ debate." That's what I was responding to. He's not in the debate. Not even close.

BTW, here' the top statistically rated Finals series performances since the merger:

Dwyane Wade Mia 2006 34.7 7.8 3.8 46.8 33.8
Tim Duncan SA 2003 24.2 17.0 5.3 49.5 32.0
Michael Jordan Chi 1991 31.2 6.6 11.4 55.8 31.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2002 36.3 12.3 3.8 59.5 31.4
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2000 38.0 16.7 2.3 61.1 31.1
Michael Jordan Chi 1998 33.5 4.0 2.3 42.7 30.8
Tim Duncan SA 1999 27.4 14.0 2.4 53.7 30.7
Michael Jordan Chi 1997 32.3 7.0 6.0 45.6 29.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2001 33.0 15.8 4.8 57.3 29.4
Michael Jordan Chi 1992 35.8 4.8 6.5 52.6 29.2


Kobe?

[Killakobe81]

No. You said Kobe was "in the MJ debate." That's what I was responding to. He's not in the debate. Not even close.

BTW, here' the top statistically rated Finals series performances since the merger:

Dwyane Wade Mia 2006 34.7 7.8 3.8 46.8 33.8
Tim Duncan SA 2003 24.2 17.0 5.3 49.5 32.0
Michael Jordan Chi 1991 31.2 6.6 11.4 55.8 31.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2002 36.3 12.3 3.8 59.5 31.4
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2000 38.0 16.7 2.3 61.1 31.1
Michael Jordan Chi 1998 33.5 4.0 2.3 42.7 30.8
Tim Duncan SA 1999 27.4 14.0 2.4 53.7 30.7
Michael Jordan Chi 1997 32.3 7.0 6.0 45.6 29.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2001 33.0 15.8 4.8 57.3 29.4
Michael Jordan Chi 1992 35.8 4.8 6.5 52.6 29.2


Kobe?

He is in the debate ...whether you like it or not. You keep throwing stats at the argument just as easy as someone could throw rings. Im glad you are having fun with copy and paste but that does nothing for me. Manning has some great stats too but I still would take Brady everytime ...why? rings.

[Killakobe81]

LOL so Dwade is better than MJ?

[midnightpulp]

He is in the debate ...whether you like it or not. You keep throwing stats at the argument just as easy as someone could throw rings. Im glad you are having fun with copy and paste but that does nothing for me. Manning has some great stats too but I still would take Brady everytime ...why? rings.

Are you too dense to understand how rings are a team accomplishment? How much influence can one guy really have when 8-11 other players (or in the case of football, 30+ other players) are factored into the equation?

When comparing individual players, compare what they did individually. Not within the team.

Oh, do me a favor and find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...Performances-1

[ezau]

midnight destroying the Laker fans that he's supposed to destroy. Nothing to see here TBH.

And LOL at the Machine pulling that "who makes more money" card.
ing desperate

[midnightpulp]

LOL so Dwade is better than MJ?

Per the usual with you. Missing the point. Jordan placing 4 times on that list is obviously better than Wade's single placement, no matter where he ranked. I showed you the list to demonstrate Kobe's inability (because he's not a great Finals performer) to place on that list.

The best player since MJ and one who is "in the debate" should have no problem making that list. After all, the two other players in the that conversation, Shaq and Duncan, both placed more than once.

Why not Kobe?

[ezau]

Duncan got skunked by Nash. Being tied for 8th seed is just like missing the playoffs, really.

LOL, how many times did the Spurs raped the Suns in the playoffs? We beat those ers in 03, 05 and 07 on our way to our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th championships.

[xellos88330]

Lakers fans being Lakers fans.

Can't blame them for wanting to talk up their best, but it is pretty hypocritical when they get upset and laugh at people talking up their own. It gets even more confusing when the stat comparisons are thrown out the window when the facts being brought up are all numerical. Facts are facts.

Kobe has had better teams, therefore won more rings. It is a FACT based on a numerical value. One that I will not deny. After all, the NUMBERS, say so. Of course, Duncan has the lions share of the individual playoff statistics which once again are FACTS based on numerical value. After all, the NUMBERS say so as well.

If you are using numbers to state a fact, shouldn't you acknowledge the numbers from the other side too? It isn't a difficult concept really. No Spurs fan can deny that Duncan has fewer rings than Kobe. Therefore, no Laker fan can deny that Duncan is the better individual playoff performer.

See... simple!





Edit: Another thing... If you aren't going to let numbers change your mind, just say so. After all, fan is short for Fanatic.

[midnightpulp]

LOL, how many times did the Spurs raped the Suns in the playoffs? We beat those ers in 03, 05 and 07 on our way to our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th championships.

Kobe also blew a 3-1 lead to Nash's Suns, who were missing Amare.

One of the best series I've seen. Nash proving he was the MVP that year over the player Lakers fans thought deserved it.

And no bull excuses about "supporting cast." Kobe went 7-21 in Game 1, a game the Lakers lost by 5. Smush Parker went 6-13

Who the gets outplayed by Smush Parker in a key playoff game?

[Killakobe81]

Per the usual with you. Missing the point. Jordan placing 4 times on that list is obviously better than Wade's single placement, no matter where he ranked. I showed you the list to demonstrate Kobe's inability (because he's not a great Finals performer) to place on that list.

The best player since MJ and one who is "in the debate" should have no problem making that list. After all, the two other players in the that conversation, Shaq and Duncan, both placed more than once.

Why not Kobe?

I am not missing the point. Making one. Stats can be always be manipulated by the data gatherer to shape the argument to their viewpoint. You chose Finals numbers to shape yours others use the scoring list to shape theirs ...

Yes winning a le is a team accomplishement but all the greatest win les ...so that is how you seperate the men from the boys. duncan and kobe are BOTH great players ...so how else you gonna determine who is greater career numbers, advced stats? You can but i choose rings ...it's my religon. For the record i think it's close but kobe is better just my opinion im not talking like it's fact ...most of the media does but I do not.

[jjktkk]

pulp electronically slapping Laker fans. Nice.

[xellos88330]

I am not missing the point. Making one. Stats can be always be manipulated by the data gatherer to shape the argument to their viewpoint. You chose Finals numbers to shape yours others use the scoring list to shape theirs ...

Yes winning a le is a team accomplishement but all the greatest win les ...so that is how you seperate the men from the boys. duncan and kobe are BOTH great players ...so how else you gonna determine who is greater career numbers, advced stats? You can but i choose rings ...it's my religon. For the record i think it's close but kobe is better just my opinion im not talking like it's fact ...most of the media does but I do not.

You do seem like a "sane" Laker fan.

I have a question for you. Do you feel that the Finals MVP is a measure for being the best player on the biggest stage of compe ive basketball in the NBA?

[024]

kobe is the luckiest player in the world. he could have easily had an iverson, vince carter, tmac (before injuries), or arenas type career. the typical volume/selfish scorer usually ends in failure. instead, since kobe plays for stern's beloved lakers, he gets multiple bailouts in the form of shaq and gasol.

[midnightpulp]

I am not missing the point. Making one. Stats can be always be manipulated by the data gatherer to shape the argument to their viewpoint. You chose Finals numbers to shape yours others use the scoring list to shape theirs ...

Yes winning a le is a team accomplishement but all the greatest win les ...so that is how you seperate the men from the boys. duncan and kobe are BOTH great players ...so how else you gonna determine who is greater career numbers, advced stats? You can but i choose rings ...it's my religon. For the record i think it's close but kobe is better just my opinion im not talking like it's fact ...most of the media does but I do not.

But you can see how the ring argument can be faulty. John Havlicek is not better than Jerry West because he has 8 rings. And Hondo was a first option type player with comparable stats to West. The difference was that West never had the supporting casts like Havlicek.

And any Spurfan who uses the rings argument in a Malone/Duncan comparison commits the same fault. Duncan is not a better player than Malone because he has 4 rings, it's because he improved during the playoffs, while keeping his FG steady at 50%, while Karl dropped from 52% during the regular season to 46% during the playoffs. Huge dropoff. Not to mention Duncan is the better defender, rebounder, and playmaker.

[Killakobe81]

You do seem like a "sane" Laker fan.

I have a question for you. Do you feel that the Finals MVP is a measure for being the best player on the biggest stage of compe ive basketball in the NBA?

I would say yes you are right it is a measure (one of them)...but we have seen examples of supporting players like Tony Parker getting Finals MVP's over the real star (duncan) so I would not say it's perfect.

I also freely admit Kobe has had some rough Finals even the past two years he has had scintilating and also some disappointing moments. that is a fair and valid criticism. And I would concede duncan has been the more conistent finals performer no doubt about it ... that is why I say it's a close argument. If not for that I would argue the gap is wider ...

[xellos88330]

I would say yes you are right it is a measure (one of them)...but we have seen examples of supporting players like Tony Parker getting Finals MVP's over the real star (duncan) so I would not say it's perfect.

I also freely admit Kobe has had some rough Finals even the past two years he has had scintilating and also some disappointing moments. that is a fair and valid criticism. And I would concede duncan has been the more conistent finals performer no doubt about it ... that is why I say it's a close argument. If not for that I would argue the gap is wider ...

So what would your thoughts be if you were a Spurs fan?

[Killakobe81]

So what would your thoughts be if you were a Spurs fan?

Like I said many times Ducan was ahead of kobe before the past 3 years in my opinion.

[TheMACHINE]

midnight destroying the Laker fans that he's supposed to destroy. Nothing to see here TBH.

And LOL at the Machine pulling that "who makes more money" card.
ing desperate

So who makes more money?

[cherylsteele]

My, your memory short. You were tied for 8th place last year, jackass. Kobe took a team full of scrubs to a 7th game against Nash's all-stars, while Duncan couldn't even get a ing win, with a healthy Manu and cheating Parker.

http://www.nba.com/standings/2009/te...w_Std_Cnf.html

There was a 3-way tie for 6,7,8 (50-32) spots and the Spurs were 7th due to tie breakers, that is how playoff postions are officially detrmined.

Actually The Spurs were tied for 6th place if we were to use your fractured logic.

[Medvedenko]

Midnight, getting his obsession on as usual.

Dude, I know it's close buddy, too close to call. 5 rings versus 4....

Still, in Duncan's and Kobe's tenure so far, Kobe's teams have been to the finals 7 times, hence winning the Western Confererance 7 times. Duncan won 4 times.....end of thread.

Kobe's actually a more talented and better individual player than TD. , you ask any pundit, expert, GM and coach an they'll tell you the same damn thing.

[TDfan2007]

You forgot the most important stats.

Rings: Kobe 5, Duncan 4

Shall we mention head to head as well?

Where was this in the malone > duncan thread?