I do have to say that watching Brown's non-verbals during Bush "praising him" in front of the media gave the impression that his (Brown's) mind set was "boy, I am so out of it in this arena". Bush was supporting his man, but the man sure lacked that look of confidence. He really did look like a fish out of water, and more like the "Brownie" he was being referred to as. Just what I saw in his demeanor.
That may be and, frankly, I wasn't impressed with his early briefings either...but, the fact remains, there is no evidence FEMA flubbed their response. In fact, all indicators are the federal response, under the organization of FEMA, have exceeded all expectations.
Agreed, I am not slamming FEMA, just Brown from his appearance and non-verbals. We have all, at one time or another, had bosses or supervisors who may not have been the BEST for the job, but the company still succeeded.
All the federal government had to do was declare the situation an "incident of national significance" and they could've run the show top to bottom at any time.
Simplistic answers to complicated questions, Thank you President ChumpDumper for enlightening all of us in the post. Please get me involved with your campaign and a nice new set of those hindsight specs you are sporting. I am sure TRO might like a set too.
And trample all over the 10th Amendment to the Cons ution...nice call your majesty.
I'm not saying things would've been any better, but this "the locals have to ask for every specific thing" from the federal government seems a bit realistic in the face of this event. When the President urged a manditory evacuation of a metro area of 1.3 million and more along the coast, it pretty much rises to the level of "incident of national significance". Simply.Simplistic answers to complicated questions
It's not like there aren't provisions for this. Just look for the term on the dhs site. I can understand how you feel political considerations take precedence over human life, I simply don't agree with it.And trample all over the 10th Amendment to the Cons ution.
Okay, next time there's a riot in Los Angeles, we'll send in the Army. Deal?
The Governor of Louisiana was resistant to relinquishing any control. The President did consider invoking the Insurrection Act to wrest control from Blanco but, didn't. He was damned if he did and damne if he didn't anyway.
And, with a death toll likely to be well under 1,000 -- most of whom died during the storm or from causes that would not have been remedied by a quicker federal response, I'd say he made the right call. Now, if Blanco and Nager just hadn't boo hooed and cussed their way through their State and City's most significant crisis, we'd all have been better off.
You don't understand, the status has now been declared for Katrina. It's not like that power isn't being used.Okay, next time there's a riot in Los Angeles, we'll send in the Army. Deal?So politics won out. Ok.The Governor of Louisiana was resistant to relinquishing any control. The President did consider invoking the Insurrection Act to wrest control from Blanco but, didn't. He was damned if he did and damne if he didn't anyway.You seem to be so satisfied with so many deaths. Kind of makes your pleas for the sole brain-dead woman ring hollow.And, with a death toll likely to be well under 1,000 -- most of whom died during the storm or from causes that would not have been remedied by a quicker federal response, I'd say he made the right call.Even if they were competent this is way beyond their capabilities.Now, if Blanco and Nager just hadn't boo hooed and cussed their way through their State and City's most significant crisis, we'd all have been better off.
The U.S.S. Bataan certainly played a role in saving lives dan. Does that bother you?
“We have jumped in feet first to provide as much assistance as we can,” said Capt. Nora Tyson, Bataan 's commanding officer
By JOSN Joanne DeVera
September 01, 2005Photo by PHAN Jeremy Grisham
USS BATAAN Assisting in Hurricane Katrina Relief Efforts GULF OF MEXICO
– The multi-purpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) began service Tuesday night and continued on Wednesday as the Maritime Disaster Service Coordinator for the U.S. Navy's role in the Hurricane Katrina search and rescue efforts in the immediate New Orleans area. Embarked helicopter squadrons have moved over 200 stranded personnel in two days of flying.
Crewmembers from Helicopter Sea Control Squadron 28 based out of Naval Station Norfolk and Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron 15 based out of Naval Air Station Corpus Christi launched three MH-53 Sea Dragons and two MH-60 Knight Hawks Tuesday night and again at daylight Wednesday to help out where they are needed.
The crews flew off Tuesday night towards New Orleans and were tasked by the on-scene rescue coordinators. “Our first mission was to provide food and water and to take some people to a safer haven and to help with the levee by providing sandbags,” said AS2(AW/NAC) Johnny Ramirez, MH-53 Aircrewman for HM-15. “We weren't able to complete our assigned mission Tuesday night because it got too dark and it was too risky to land anywhere with all of the water and power lines. Instead, we just flew Tuesday night to survey the area.”
On Wednesday, a crew from HM-15 assisted with lifting numerous stranded citizens in a very short period of time. “My crew and I airlifted nearly 100 people from the roof of a building and onto a field where ambulances and busses were waiting for them,” said LCDR David Hopper, detachment Officer in Charge of HM-15. “Ten of those who we rescued couldn't even walk; my crewmen had to carry them.”
The only downfall for all the crews is that they can't save everyone but they know saving one life is worth it.
“It's rewarding to help our fellow Americans,” Hopper said. “The crew knows that these people don't have a home to go back to. That is our motivation.”
One of the missions of the MH-60 aircraft is search and rescue. HSC-28 personnel have rescued 71 people in their first two days of operation, seven in the first 30 minutes. HSC-28 has three crews and two aircraft and is alternating flight and crew rest time.
“At first it was frustrating because it took so long to get involved,” said pilot Lt. Eric Lowry of HSC-28. “Now that we have started, we don't want to stop.”
The crew of the MH-60 also ran out of daylight as it was difficult to see stranded personnel on the rooftops in a city that has limited electricity. For Lt j.g. Jeremy Browning seeing the destruction from Katrina is like seeing something out of a movie. “Everything just looked like somebody threw a bunch of dog houses in a swimming pool.”
Commander, Joint Task Force Katrina, Lt. Gen. Russell Honore, embarked Bataan Wednesday for a few hours to survey the ship's capabilities.
T he area stretching from Louisiana to Florida has announced a public health emergency a nd the President of the United States said that the recovery of the Gulf Coast could take years.
“We have jumped in feet first to provide as much assistance as we can,” said Capt. Nora Tyson, Bataan 's commanding officer. “Every Sailor on this ship will do everything they can to do to help. We'll be prepared to have this ship filled up with people. If they need to sleep in the hangar bay because this is the only dry ground, then so be it.”
Bataan 's involvement in the humanitarian assistance operations is an effort led by the Department of Defense in conjunction with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).
Public Affairs note: We will keep our family and friends informed of our efforts if we are needed. Check the Bataan website often for the latest news on our hurricane relief efforts.
Where the do you guys get this from? The Federal Government could have never run the entire show...Why do ya'll not ing understand this? Do you idiots even understand why we have a cons ution? Because we didn't want the type of government you want...that's what we were running away from.
He could have Federalized the Guard and that's it...he couldn't have empowered them to act as peace officers...he could have not have controlled the State and Local Police or Fire Fighters.
That declaration does nothing of the kind. I know this without ever even having heard of that declaration before or having any clue of it's definition...But I know what it can't do...and it can't give the President the power to act as the Soverign Leader of the State of Louisiana or the Mayor of New Orleans.
IOW...it would not have given them authority over the Local/State Police, Firefighters or the Louisiana Guard(as Law enforcement officers)....IE, the people who failed.
Link to where it says otherwise?
Hint...it'll be in the cons ution if it exists, .
Anyone who primarily blames the Fed and claims they are acting in a bipartisan fashion when doing so...is either lying about their bipartisanship...or just plain ole ignorant of the Cons ution of the United State of America and the purpose it serves.
The blame for this tragedy from a Governmental standpoint is to be doled out in direct proportion to their proximity to the disaster...The closer they were to it...the more they failed(this is not toally a general rule, in this case it is based on the actual failures as well)...and the more blame they deserve.
Mayor and Local Gov are blamees #1.
Govenor and State Gov are blamees #2.
President and Federal are blamees #3.
In that order.
The Mayor is a coward, an idiot, and incompetent.
The Governor is a powertripping incompetent.
And the President was a flat out idiot for trusting them to handle this, no matter what their authority...but he does not have the power you guys think he does...regardless.
The Federal Goverment does not even have authority over the Red Cross...much less the Governor of LA.
And no Chump...the Fed is not in charge of everything now...The Governor is...for the 1 billionth time.
Go ahead and run with all the Neocon ...I'd rather be accused of being partisan than be stupid.
Last edited by whottt; 09-13-2005 at 04:38 AM.
The only way they Fed could have acted in a law enforcement sense is to declare martial law, yet....
So what we had here was a failure of the peace keeping forces...but at no time were the city and local governments out of commission...in Baton Rouge...yes...out of commission...no...there was never any point at which the Fed had the cir stances to declare martial law.Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the cir stances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and ins ute curfews, among other emergency powers.
IOW...while the security forces were in the toilet...what was the Fed supposed to do with regards to rescuing and feeding the evacuees?
Stand there and get shot? Open fire on a few select gun toting individuals in a crowd of 30,000 people? Work security? Something they were not authorized to do...something they are generally not authorized to do even if the Govenor had wanted it?
You had dual forces at work here....the security forces...under the control of the Govenor...and the Federal Rescue Forces, under the control of the FED...actually, you still have that...only Honare pretty much started kicking anyones ass that got in his way...
Once the security forces failed( like 500 cops quitting, the rest being left without leadership, and food or water, and wondering if their families were alive...and not enough guardsmen in place to maintain security, like when one of them got shot at the Superdome)...it seriously ed up what the Fed had the responsibility to do, not to mention the levees breaking after the storm, and way more people staying than expected...it required them to do something they were not planning on having to do...something they were not authorized to do...
That is why the blame must begin the local level and work outward. And anyone that doubts where the authority lies...they need to ,#1. Go look up the definition of the word Federal as it apllies to the US Govt and #2. Go read the Cons ution.
Last edited by whottt; 09-13-2005 at 05:10 AM.
That Govenor had 5000-8000 troops should could have brought in to supply food, water, DRIVE BUSSES OR AT LEAST MOVE THEM, communicatons equipment, aid the mayor in supplying the cops with food and water, moving their faimilies out of the city, set up a base of operations within the city, set up a temporary jail....
They did none of that...they didn't even set the New Orleans PD up to be able to feed themselves...they had the authority to do all of that...and they damn sure had the supplies to do it..and the US Govt gave them the money to do it with...they did none of it. How can anyone say the majority of the blame does not lie with them...it's their city, their state, they are supposed to know those areas better than the Fed...which is based some 2000 miles away. The Fed has the entire country to worry about, the State only has the State to worry about, and the city...etc. The Fed is not designed or authorized to act or assume the responsiblities of State and Local Govts. Absolute and total incompetence and indifference at the Local and State levels..
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interap...lease_0724.xml To wit:See skippy, that means that overwhelmed and incompetent local governments don't have to ask for every specific type of aid. I should have been more specific as to what that meant. I don't know if it means the sexual harrassment training of rescue workers would've happened any faster though -- gotta have your priorities straight.The Department of Homeland Security has declared this an Incident of National Significance, the first ever use of this designation under the new National Response Plan. The National Response Plan, which was stood up earlier this year, gives the Department of Homeland Security the lead responsibility to coordinate federal response and recovery efforts. The plan is designed to bring together all federal resources to increase our ability to quickly get relief to those who need it most.
yes, federal, but that doesn't mean they can trample state's right.. it coordinates the federal resources.
You still need drivers, gas, and the cordination to use them. I don't know whether it was possible or not, but neither do you.
However, a federal government response in a stronger manner is something I expect, and if we can't do it we better well develop the capability instead of jacking around in far off places. Developing a capable diaster management and response is something that we need and will save far more lives than anything overseas will.
The state officials ed up, but the feds ed up by not federalizing the NG or by invoking the inserrection act in order to take control fo the situation. Department of Homeland Secruity my ass.
Now go find up what Posse Comitatus is...Go find out what the Stafford Act is...and then go show me the section of the cons ution where it gives the President the power to authorize the National Guard to enforce State or City Law or the Army to act as Law Enforcement or to command local and state police forces.lead responsibility to coordinate
On what grounds could he have legitimately invoked the insurrection act? The Hurricane being rebellious? The failure of the local and state forces?
But don't get me wrong...I agree he ed up by not absolutely, totally, and thoroughly stripping the power from the incompetent leadership of New Orleans and Louisiana...I just want you guys to realize that he never did it, all of the time...instead of just when it suits you...and he still had severely limited powers.
OOOOHHHH you tempted the wrath of a guy that has been called the "human Google"
You asked for it apologista:
Like holding up medical help?
When FEMA was combined into Homeland Security, it lost both standing and focus. The emphasis was shifted to combating terrorism. And in July, FEMA lost its role of working with states and localities to plan for disasters.
(http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssen...l/12590126.htm)
Hurricanes won't stop targeting the Atlantic and Gulf states just because foreign terrorists have the nation in their crosshairs. Yet FEMA's budget has been cut each year since 2003. Its staff is down by 500, resulting in the loss of one of three emergency management teams. Local governments, which rely on FEMA when a natural disaster hits, warned that the agency's services were becoming thin. Little attention was paid.
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...-9229276c.html
Actually the best bit was from another bulletin board.
On the Monday of the Hurricane, as the hurricane was raging, 500 Florida Airboat pilots volunteered to assist in the search and rescue. Most filled their boats with supplies and water. They are still waiting for approval to enter the area from FEMA. From every report I've heard, they are still short boats in the disaster zone.
In Atlanta, there are 100s of highly skilled resue workers waiting to be assigned to the disaster zone, and FEMA has them taking Sexual Harrassment courses. The did send some into action as a backdrop for the presidents visit.
Over 600 Illinois firefighers, EMTs, Paramedics, etc... including pumper trucks, ladder trucks and rescue equipment are sitting outside Baton Rouge, because FEMA can't figure out how to deploy them... This represents 1.5% of the total emergency capacity of the State of Illinois... and they are sitting around playing football... because some idiot can't figure out how to use the available resources. **Update** At least some of these have been deployed to cover for Baton Rouge, but I believe the bulk are still waiting for deployment.
And for the record, I'll list Aaron Broussard's accusations, which were never refuted:
"Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA turned them back, said we didn't need them."
"We had 1000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel, the Coast Guard said "come and get the fuel." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, 'FEMA said don't give you the fuel.'"
"FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communications lines [without notice]. The Sherriff ... came back in and re-connected them, and posted armed guards on the lines"
However, in the eyes of the public, is biggest problem was the complete disconnect between what he was telling the press while we were watching images of what was really happening on the ground. It appeared (right or wrong) that he had no clue what was going on. I prefer my public officials to know more than I do about things like this, not less....
Just my .02
Ride Safe,
Ken
http://www.beginnerbikers.org/showthread.php?t=3187
I will get on to this after I am done with class today. Do not doubt that I can EASILY find an example of Republicans critisizing a democratic president for his response to a natural disaster.
You have asked for a difficult task:
I will need to pull out of periodicals the opinion sections from Clinton, Carter, Johnson, and further. It might take a trip to the library, as most of US history happened before the Internet (honest!!) but if you are foolish enough to think that no conservative has ever ed about the way a Democratic president has responded to a natural disaster, you will be dissappointed.
If you still stand behind this niave assertion, I will do so, because I am the type of nerd who likes calling hacks on their bull . Let me know, and I will be out of my financial accounting class at about 9:30pm or so. I will have to tuck my 2 year old in, but will be happy to give you a couple hours at the TxState library after that.
(edited a typo)
...or, you can admit you are wrong, and that conservative doesn't smell like roses.
Both sides play a political game, and if you think that Bush is somehow less at fault for his administration's f*** ups just because you agree with him/his party politically, you need some remedial lessons in critical thinking, as most conservatives do.
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