For 95% of Spurstalk who are idiots...

[Wilford Brimley]

Sup Wilford

what's good scrah

[Gagnrath]

In an isolation against Bonner the other guy generally scores, I like Bonner though he's a decent back-up that is payed appropriately for his role and he does it pretty well. He's pretty decent at ball denial, which I will say is from no one being able to miss the glowing white and red guy near the man, is he covering? Who knows, I was looking for my man and got distracted by him in the vicinity, he is in position and tries hard. He's not a rim protector, and his rebounding for his size and position is poor. Offensively in the past he has been more bothered by hard close-outs than I would like but he does keep the paint from staying packed.


Alot of the fans see Bonner getting beaten regularly on isolations and alot of the time it ends in an athletic and spectacular dunk. This is memorable, the contested jump shot by another player because he was covering his man, or a pass out of the post because he had position and was guarding his guy isn't. It doesn't help that he's extra memorable looking when he is getting posterized.

[Gagnrath]

In an isolation against Bonner the other guy generally scores, I like Bonner though he's a decent back-up that is payed appropriately for his role and he does it pretty well. He's pretty decent at ball denial, which I will say is from no one being able to miss the glowing white and red guy near the man, is he covering? Who knows, I was looking for my man and got distracted by him in the vicinity, he is in position and tries hard. He's not a rim protector, and his rebounding for his size and position is poor. Offensively in the past he has been more bothered by hard close-outs than I would like but he does keep the paint from staying packed.


Alot of the fans see Bonner getting beaten regularly on isolations and alot of the time it ends in an athletic and spectacular dunk. This is memorable, the contested jump shot by another player because he was covering his man, or a pass out of the post because he had position and was guarding his guy isn't. It doesn't help that he's extra memorable looking when he is getting posterized.

[Kyle Orton]

Chillin bro. Hows the diabeetus, have you had to get anything amputated like Beetus Joe?

[Wilford Brimley]

Chillin bro. Hows the diabeetus, have you had to get anything amputated like Beetus Joe?

Left BKA (below knee amputation), tbh. Don't get the beetus, Kyle...it's a

[ajh18]

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

[chazley]

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

Excellent post.

[underdawg]

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

[DesignatedT]

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

you can attribute a lot in those stats. Like the decline in the big 3 as they are getting older which is the main reason for this. particularly Duncan.

[jjktkk]

You don't need stats when you just need to use common sense regarding Matty. Bonner is an asset to this team when he is hitting his shots, and is not being overused by Pop. Too much Bonner means Bonner isn't on offensively and Bonner's defensive liabilities are being exposed. Come playoff time, Pop needs to have the hook at the ready for Bonner when he isn't on his game.

[itzsoweezee]

Shove these stats up your ass you Bonner-loving morons:

Bonner
D rtg 107 (pts allowed per 100 possessions)
DWS 1.1 (# of wins contributed by a player due to his defense)

Blair
D rtg 99
DWS 2.9


McDyess
D rtg 102
DWS 1.8

Duncan
D rtg 99
DWS 3.8

[DPG21920]

I thought these stupid Nazi trolls were being retired.

[jjktkk]

How can anyone want Matt Bonner on their team come playoff time?

Serious question.

Its not that I want Bonner, but it is reality that Bonner is a Spur, so I hope Bonner can shed his choking in the playoffs label.

[underdawg]

you can attribute a lot in those stats. Like the decline in the big 3 as they are getting older which is the main reason for this. particularly Duncan.

True, but Tony and Manu's steals per game are the highest they've had since '06 and Duncan's blocks per game are higher than his previous 2 years. His rebounds are down, but I don't think him taking less shot attempts helps that. Point is their defense doesn't seem to have declined like you would think, but overall the Spurs defense has.

Point is - It will be interesting in the playoffs to see if Pop's strategy works -offensive emphasis over defense. If you go off of history, Tony and Manu are going to get you 20 a piece and Duncan's offensive role continues to diminish, but he should still get close to 20 ppg himself. Where are the other 30-40 points going to come from?

Spurs are probably going to need to average over a 100 pts per game in the playoffs since their defense is going to give up close to that. I can see Neal giving the Spurs 10 ppg, but I don't have any confidence in Bonner, Jefferson, Blair, Mcdyess and Hill making up the rest of that gap on a consistent level and especially if one of the Big 3 has an off night.

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

You take dumbass to another level.

last night i was pumped for the game and was in the mood to feed you.
not so much today. good luck with that

[chazley]

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

haha these stats are so irrelevant to this discussion... do I really need to explain why?

[chazley]

Shove these stats up your ass you Bonner-loving morons:

Bonner
D rtg 107 (pts allowed per 100 possessions)
DWS 1.1 (# of wins contributed by a player due to his defense)

Blair
D rtg 99
DWS 2.9


McDyess
D rtg 102
DWS 1.8

Duncan
D rtg 99
DWS 3.8

Finally, someone with a valid rebuttal. Do you mind sharing where you got these numbers from?

[itzsoweezee]

Finally, someone with a valid rebuttal. Do you mind sharing where you got these numbers from?

basketball-reference.com

[chazley]

basketball-reference.com

Those are interesting stats, but I think the real question is where does his 107 rating stack up against the league average. I've never claimed Bonner was more than a slightly above average defender, but these stats could or could not help me in that regard.

[20beastie45]

Bonner Thread!!! He has choked in the past and will choke in the future!

Nice thread tho!

[itzsoweezee]

Those are interesting stats, but I think the real question is where does his 107 rating stack up against the league average. I've never claimed Bonner was more than a slightly above average defender, but these stats could or could not help me in that regard.

Blair and Duncan are number 8 and 10 in the league, respectively, based on defensive rating. At 107, Bonner is ranked 200th in the league, easily worse than ALL of the Spurs bigmen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ced_stats.html

[20beastie45]

Hey Chazley, what are the Spurs best Rebounding lineups? Offensive and defensive? Defense means nothing if you can't grab the rebound.

Seriously question.

once again great thread!

[chazley]

Blair and Duncan are number 8 and 10 in the league, respectively, based on defensive rating. At 107, Bonner is ranked 200th in the league, easily worse than ALL of the Spurs bigmen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ced_stats.html

itzsoweezee, thank you for actually taking the time to back up your argument with actual facts and stats. These numbers are pretty damning when it comes to proving Bonner is, in fact, a bad individual defender. When you combine these stats with the ones I provided in my original post though, I don't think it's sheer coincidence that Bonner shows up in some of our best defensive lineups. There are some explanations for this, some of which being Bonner rotates well on defense, he defends the pick and roll decently, and might actually be a better help defender than I or anyone else give him credit for.

The list actually puts Blair as the best defender on the Spurs, 12th overall in the league, so I do have to take their rankings with a grain of salt (Bonner is 181st, Duncan is 15th). Overall though, a decent list.

[chazley]

Hey Chazley, what are the Spurs best Rebounding lineups? Offensive and defensive? Defense means nothing if you can't grab the rebound.

Seriously question.

once again great thread!

A very good point Beastie, one that I overlooked.

Here are the top rebounding lineups the Spurs have (percentage of available rebounds rebounded):

1. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 57%
2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 56.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 56%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 53%
5. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 52%

He only shows up once on that list, however, we have to take into account the differences for each of these lineups if they are porous defensively.

The #1 ranked lineup actually has a very good points per possession allowed(0.95). When you combine that with the units rebounding ability, it is easily our best rebounding/defensive lineup.

The #2 ranked lineup with Bonner though is a very very close second, with a PPPA of 0.96.

This shows that Blair/Duncan and Bonner/McDyess are the two big man combos that work best in terms of defense and rebounding.

[20beastie45]

A very good point Beastie, one that I overlooked.

Here are the top rebounding lineups the Spurs have (percentage of available rebounds rebounded):

1. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 57%
2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 56.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 56%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 53%
5. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 52%

He only shows up once on that list, however, we have to take into account the differences for each of these lineups if they are porous defensively.

The #1 ranked lineup actually has a very good points per possession allowed(0.95). When you combine that with the units rebounding ability, it is easily our best rebounding/defensive lineup.

The #2 ranked lineup with Bonner though is a very very close second, with a PPPA of 0.96.

This shows that Blair/Duncan and Bonner/McDyess are the two big man combos that work best in terms of defense and rebounding.

How about best Defensive/Rebounding line-ups since the all star game and against playoff contending teams?

Keep up the good research!!