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  1. #26
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    LOL the heartland ins ute...only wing-nuts can't see the forest from the corporate 501 trees...in the 90's the heartland ins ute tried to tell us second hand smoke was safe
    the 1990s, the group worked with the tobacco company Philip Morris to question the science linking secondhand smoke to health risks, and to lobby against government public health reforms.[5][6][7] More recently, the Ins ute has focused on challenging the scientific consensus on climate change, and has sponsored meetings of climate change skeptics.[8]
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  2. #27
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    I'm surprised Breitbart not on this dole...

    In its early years, the Heartland Ins ute focused on policies relevant to the Midwestern United States. Since 1993 it has focused on reaching elected officials and opinion leaders in all 50 states. In addition to research, the Heartland Ins ute features an Internet application called PolicyBot which serves as a clearinghouse for research from other conservative think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation, the American Legislative Exchange Council, and the libertarian Cato Ins ute. The Ins ute's president and CEO is Joseph L. Bast
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  3. #28
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    Random, what's your beef?
    People get upset at things that may disprove their dogma.

  4. #29
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    "PolicyBot which serves as a clearinghouse for research from other conservative think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation, the American Legislative Exchange Council, and the libertarian Cato Ins ute."

    VRWC? nah, no communication, no message synchronization, no message discipline, no secrecy, by anybody, nowhere. They're all honest, authentic, open people who never take secret money from the corps and capitalists nor shape their message to their contributors' financial objectives.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 07-29-2011 at 06:00 AM.

  5. #30
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    People get upset at things that may disprove their dogma.
    THIS is ironic as considering how much foam at the mouth this op ed has caused on the web over the past day. This research is not new at all. Its an incredibly simplistic climate model that Roy Spencer has brandied around in the past.

    So that being said, the author of this op ed decides to write this a couple of days ago because Spencer's model is actually published. That doesn't mean its new, by any means. In the climate world, its pretty much not news yet you would never know that by looking at the - mostly conservative - blogosphere. There's no new information provided here by a climate scientist at all but rather just an opinion piece provided by someone with a very very poor understanding of the science (might as well have been written by WC tbh). You don't need to know anything about the author or his organization and still have alarm bells ringing by the time you're done simply because of his poor word choice.

    Yeah - I definitely think that people do whatever they can to prove their dogma. Look at the reaction this article has gotten.

  6. #31
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    My favorite Roy Spencer moment comes on this forum, tbh. WC tried to use one of his old studies showing that the temperature record according to satellites was cooler than what the other data sets were showing. WC jumped all over that one.

    Too bad that Roy Spencer had already admitted his mistake for YEARS prior to the point WC wanted to use the study as proof. Nothing proves your point like using a study the author himself has said was flawed.

  7. #32
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    People get upset at things that may disprove their dogma.
    No beef. It is hopefully a good study that advances our knowledge.

    If warming turns out to be happening slower than it "should" be, then great, that makes me happy that things might not turn out as bad as some predictions have made it seem.

    (edit)
    What I do have a beef with is the rather blatant political agenda being spun on this, by someone with every reason to half-truth it into something that is a lie.
    Please explain how my statement is dogma.

    If you can't:

    you, quit making up, you hypocritical asshat.

  8. #33
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    THIS is ironic as considering how much foam at the mouth this op ed has caused on the web over the past day. This research is not new at all. Its an incredibly simplistic climate model that Roy Spencer has brandied around in the past.

    So that being said, the author of this op ed decides to write this a couple of days ago because Spencer's model is actually published. That doesn't mean its new, by any means. In the climate world, its pretty much not news yet you would never know that by looking at the - mostly conservative - blogosphere. There's no new information provided here by a climate scientist at all but rather just an opinion piece provided by someone with a very very poor understanding of the science (might as well have been written by WC tbh). You don't need to know anything about the author or his organization and still have alarm bells ringing by the time you're done simply because of his poor word choice.

    Yeah - I definitely think that people do whatever they can to prove their dogma. Look at the reaction this article has gotten.
    OP sounds just like the 9-11 wankers when they discover some new "scientist" or "architect" willing to commit to controlled demolition.
    Yup. This is akin to allowing Baghdad Bob to give you the truth about the Iraq war.

    "There are no Americans in Baghdad, and our brave forces are easilly repelling them with heavy losses."



    Is it false simply because they said it? No.
    Should you be skeptical? yes.

    Unless of course, you are simply clutching at straws to confirm your own dogma, as the usual suspects readily lined up to do.

  9. #34
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    People get upset at things that may disprove their dogma.
    True.

    I forgot about the dangers of questioning other people's religion.

  10. #35
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Waiting for your explanation.

  11. #36
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Waiting for your explanation.
    Why, you've already disagreed with it in the past. Why should you change your mind?

    Now refresh my memory though. What study did I support that was later admitted as wrong? I don't recall such a thing happening. I think you're making that up.

  12. #37
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Not only did you use it after it was known to be wrong, you then tried to claim it was a "test". So ing classic. I'm actually LOLing.

    Doesn't surprise me you've backed away from your statement last night that you would provide more details today.

  13. #38
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Why, you've already disagreed with it in the past. Why should you change your mind?

    Now refresh my memory though. What study did I support that was later admitted as wrong? I don't recall such a thing happening. I think you're making that up.
    Ninja please. You latch on to anything you find emotionally appealing, and you know it.

    If you want to backpeddle though, one of these might be helpful:



    Just trying to help.

  14. #39
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    LOL the heartland ins ute...only wing-nuts can't see the forest from the corporate 501 trees...in the 90's the heartland ins ute tried to tell us second hand smoke was safe


    Wiki
    Oooh, yeah. I had almost forgotten about that little turd that the denier crowd would like everyone to overlook.

  15. #40
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Anyhow, since its clear WC is going to run away from this I'll provide some info on why this isn't new and why its not really doing anything to detract from AGW. Spencer's whole schtick regarding this rides on the notion that clouds are the main driver of GW. Most scientists regard them as a feedback mechanism but not an actual cause.

    Because of this, Spencer has developed a model to explain the warming and make predictions. This model is simplistic as . Its just an equation. I'm sure this is the point where Darrin tells us how this model is poor due to its lack of nuance since this has been a favorite claim of his in the past.

    Here is a really good breakdown of Spencer's poorly performing model:

    http://bbickmore.wordpress.com/2011/...lunder-part-3/

    Key excerts:

    The key to understanding Spencer’s choice of a 700 m mixed layer depth is in Figure 6. My best-fit values for alpha and beta at h = 700 m were 3.71 W/m^2/°C and 1.55 W/m^2, respectively. My technique was somewhat different from Spencer’s–for some reason he averaged together thousands of different curves that seemed to fit the data pretty well, and I assume he averaged the adjustable parameter values from these different model runs, as well. Therefore, he obtained similar, but not identical, values: alpha = 3.0 W/m^2/°C and beta = 1.17 W/m^2. Remember that for Spencer’s hypothesis to work, he needed to obtain an alpha value corresponding to negative (alpha > 3.3) or weakly positive feedback. The value alpha = 3.0 corresponds to positive feedback, but it is much weaker than the range Spencer gives for the IPCC models (alpha = 0.9-1.9). So why not choose a mixed layer depth of 800 or 1000 m, and obtain an even larger alpha value? Because the graph in Figure 3 dictates that Spencer also needed a beta value close to 1 W/m^2. And guess what? His ad hoc statistical method automatically gave him answers in the right range!

    Did he purposefully manipulate his method to produce just the right values? I actually don’t think so. Roy’s computer program may have generated just the right values simply due to luck, combined with a marked misunderstanding of his model system and a flawed statistical method. When I generated the 24 model curves in Figure 5, which all fit the data equally well using widely different parameters, I collected the averages of all the best-fit parameters and got: alpha = 3.3 W/m^2/°C, beta = 1.38 W/m^2, h = 625 m, and ∆To = -0.66 °C. Wow, those are close to Roy’s preferred parameters, right? Well, the truth is that at first I ramped the ocean depth from 50 to 1000 m, and some of my average parameter values were too low. All I had to do to get what I wanted was change the upper bound to 1200 m. But that’s the point, isn’t it? I could get whatever I wanted by judiciously choosing the right boundary conditions… or by dumb luck.

    This discussion brings up another intriguing question. What if we were to choose a realistic mixed-layer depth? What kind of alpha and beta values would we obtain then? In Figure 6, the values for h = 100-200 m are alpha = 0.53-1.06 and beta = 0.22-0.44. In other words, the feedback would have to be just as positive as, or more positive than, that assumed by the IPCC models. And as for beta, Ray Pierrehumbert pointed out that if it were as high as Roy Spencer wants it to be, it would produce fluctuations in the net radiation flux that are much larger than actually observed via satellite. He instead suggested a more reasonable value of 0.25 W/m^2 for beta. So what do you know? By assuming a reasonable mixed layer depth, you can obtain a beta value that is consistent with satellite observations, and an alpha value that indicates feedback that is at least as positive as the IPCC asserts. But then, they wouldn’t be consistent with Roy Spencer’s method for estimating beta shown in Figure 3, or with his hypothesis that climate feedbacks are more negative than the IPCC estimates.

  16. #41
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    To put it in a very simple way, if I give you the equation that X+Y+Z = 72 and put no restrictions on X Y but only on Z is it had to achieve X and Y values that you want? Not at all.

  17. #42
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    LOL the heartland ins ute...only wing-nuts can't see the forest from the corporate 501 trees...in the 90's the heartland ins ute tried to tell us second hand smoke was safe


    Wiki
    You dumbass. It was Yahoo news, from forbes. The study was by a NASA scientist in a peer reviewed scientific journal. It was an article reporting on the study. You are SUCH an ignorant ass.

  18. #43
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...PeI_story.html

    APNewsBreak: Alaska researcher who do ented polar bears demise in Arctic is placed on leave

    JUNEAU, Alaska — Just five years ago, Charles Monnett was one of the scientists whose observation that several polar bears had drowned in the Arctic Ocean helped galvanize the global warming movement.

    Now, the wildlife biologist is on administrative leave and facing accusations of scientific misconduct.
    Oops.

    Quite an inconvenience for Al Gore.

  19. #44
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    You dumbass. It was Yahoo news, from forbes. The study was by a NASA scientist in a peer reviewed scientific journal. It was an article reporting on the study. You are SUCH an ignorant ass.
    It was an editorial piece from Forbes.

    There is a distinction between an editorial piece and an article.

    That Yahoo news didn't stick it in the editorial section was probably an unintentional oversight.



    Mr. Taylor has no degree in science that I could find, making him ill-suited to provide cogent analysis on scientific studies concerning atmospheric studies.

    He is, however, a lawyer.

    http://www.heartland.org/about/profi...E9925B64B54655

    His biography very coyly says "bachelor's degree" but did not specify.

    Given that he went on to law school, and his political proclivities, I would say that "political science" is the most likely "bachelors degree", especially since they/he would be trumpeting any science degree quite loudly.


    Do you always get your scientific analysis from political science majors' editorial pieces, or is it just this one time?

  20. #45
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Just to expand a bit on the above, the model Spencer used in this paper is different form the one that is torn down in the blog post I mentioned. That being said, he has even MORE fully adjustable parameters in the newer one. If you're truly trying to model the earth, why would you not use actual constraints on those parameters that reflect the real world?

    Darrin, what do you think?

  21. #46
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Just to expand a bit on the above, the model Spencer used in this paper is different form the one that is torn down in the blog post I mentioned. That being said, he has even MORE fully adjustable parameters in the newer one. If you're truly trying to model the earth, why would you not use actual constraints on those parameters that reflect the real world?

    Darrin, what do you think?
    A model is only as good as it comports with measurements.

    It's interesting that the two guys who developed the satellite temperature record, John Christy and Roy Spencer (Christy actually being an author of IPCC's 2001 report) are such outspoken critics of catastrophic AGW.

  22. #47
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    People can keep ing about some guy at the Heartland Ins ute (who didn't even write the paper) OR they can actually read the paper.

    http://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/3/8/1603/pdf

  23. #48
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    It was an editorial piece from Forbes.

    There is a distinction between an editorial piece and an article.

    That Yahoo news didn't stick it in the editorial section was probably an unintentional oversight.

    Do you always get your scientific analysis from political science majors' editorial pieces, or is it just this one time?
    You dumbass. It was Yahoo news, from forbes. The study was by a NASA scientist in a peer reviewed scientific journal. It was an article reporting on the study. You are SUCH an ignorant ass.
    You dumbass. It was Yahoo news, from forbes. The study was by a NASA scientist in a peer reviewed scientific journal. It was an article reporting on the study. You are SUCH an ignorant ass.
    just having some jolly ass fun

  24. #49
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    you, quit making up, you hypocritical asshat.
    Relax, you don't have to get so upset.

  25. #50
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    A model is only as good as it comports with measurements.

    It's interesting that the two guys who developed the satellite temperature record, John Christy and Roy Spencer (Christy actually being an author of IPCC's 2001 report) are such outspoken critics of catastrophic AGW.
    And there in lies the main problem with this model.

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