Lol. Refs handing the game to the Lakers

[Deuce Bigalow]

0:56Kobe Bryant makes 25-foot three point jumper (Steve Blake assists)89-90
0:35 89-90Linas Kleiza lost ball (Kobe Bryant steals)
0:31Metta World Peace makes two point shot (Kobe Bryant assists)91-90
0:31Toronto 20 Sec. timeout 0:16 91-92Jose Calderon makes 17-foot two point shot
0:16Los Angeles full timeout
0:16 91-92James Johnson enters the game for Linas Kleiza
0:07 91-92Aaron Gray personal block (Kobe Bryant draws the foul)
0:04Kobe Bryant makes two point shot (Metta World Peace assists)93-92

people still gonna hate

[JamStone]

What happened, tbh?..

Lakers played a ty Raptors team. Should have had a comfortable win. Kobe re-enters in the fourth quarter and misses like 6 shots in a row. Raptors take a lead. Kobe makes a couple of shots and gets an assist to help take the game. Refs made a questionable foul call. Lakers win. Some people on the board get a little sore in the bottom, start threads about it. You know, that old chestnut.

Also ignores the PG defense on Jose Calderon who dropped 30 points on 18 shots. Kobe is to blame for his share of deficiencies and negative play. But it's always the focus whereas there are bigger issues with the Lakers that are primary reasons why they aren't much better than they have been. The lack of production at the PG and SF spots and the lack of an even average bench are the two main and glaring holes for the Lakers. Sure, Kobe is a selfish ballhog. He's not the only problem. And in reality, he's not even among the biggest problems.

[midnightpulp]

Moving the goal posts. Since rings arent quantifiable, then what is? Kobe is one of the all-time scorers. Pretty quantifiable, so are MVP's, ALL NBA selections and all defensive teams. So are GM polls.

But if you want to say basketball is team sport and discount rings, then pretty much all stats are meaningless. Shooters often times needs screens to get opne or good passers to get them open shots. Coaches run plays. Other players suck the defense in. Yes, i do use rings as PART of my argument, but Im not Cully.

Try again, you missed.

Stats. And since statistical measurement has evolved exponentially over the past decade (you can like advanced stats or not, but if you're still primarily evaluating statistical contribution by only "per game" or "total" stats, you're still in the dark ages) we can arrive at a general idea of how effective a player is on both sides of the ball. Of course, observation should be used in conjunction with stats to come to an overall conclusion. For example, there's no stat to measure an open shot a teammate gets because of a star player being double team or how good a player's help defense is, but other than some outliers, they do paint a pretty accurate picture. It's not surprise that usual top-ten all time great suspects (Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, etc) dominate the advance stat categories.

[midnightpulp]

0:56Kobe Bryant makes 25-foot three point jumper (Steve Blake assists)89-90
0:35 89-90Linas Kleiza lost ball (Kobe Bryant steals)
0:31Metta World Peace makes two point shot (Kobe Bryant assists)91-90
0:31Toronto 20 Sec. timeout 0:16 91-92Jose Calderon makes 17-foot two point shot
0:16Los Angeles full timeout
0:16 91-92James Johnson enters the game for Linas Kleiza
0:07 91-92Aaron Gray personal block (Kobe Bryant draws the foul)
0:04Kobe Bryant makes two point shot (Metta World Peace assists)93-92

people still gonna hate

Missed 5 shots before that. Nice cherry pick

[Deuce Bigalow]

Stats. And since statistical measurement has evolved exponentially over the past decade (you can like advanced stats or not, but if you're still primarily evaluating statistical contribution by only "per game" or "total" stats, you're still in the dark ages) we can arrive at a general idea of how effective a player is on both sides of the ball. Of course, observation should be used in conjunction with stats to come to an overall conclusion. For example, there's no stat to measure an open shot a teammate gets because of a star player being double team or how good a player's help defense is, but other than some outliers, they do paint a pretty accurate picture. It's not surprise that usual top-ten all time great suspects (Jordan, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, etc) dominate the advance stat categories.

PER (Hollinger's formula)

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3



Kobe has a higher career PER than Larry Bird in the Regular Season and Playoffs
Kobe has a higher Peak PER in the Regular Season and Playoffs than Magic Johnson and Larry Bird

[midnightpulp]

Lakers played a ty Raptors team. Should have had a comfortable win. Kobe re-enters in the fourth quarter and misses like 6 shots in a row. Raptors take a lead. Kobe makes a couple of shots and gets an assist to help take the game. Refs made a questionable foul call. Lakers win. Some people on the board get a little sore in the bottom, start threads about it. You know, that old chestnut.

Also ignores the PG defense on Jose Calderon who dropped 30 points on 18 shots. Kobe is to blame for his share of deficiencies and negative play. But it's always the focus whereas there are bigger issues with the Lakers that are primary reasons why they aren't much better than they have been. The lack of production at the PG and SF spots and the lack of an even average bench are the two main and glaring holes for the Lakers. Sure, Kobe is a selfish ballhog. He's not the only problem. And in reality, he's not even among the biggest problems.

And damn straight I'm sore. Lakers blowing a 17 point lead to the Raptors would've made it a juicy day on the board. Too bad the Raptors are such incompetent s and couldn't take care of the ball down the stretch.

Part of me dies when a Laker fan is happy. Real talk.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Missed 5 shots before that. Nice cherry pick

Hit 2 shots before the missed shots to give them a 6 point lead, nice cherrypick

[Deuce Bigalow]

Oh and to add on to the PER

All 3 of those player, their Peak PER in the Playoffs came on a championship year so it wasn't a small sample size
Magic '87
Bird '84
Kobe '09

and
Kobe's 2009 Finals (28.3 PER) is higher than any of Magic's, Bird's, Kareem's, Hakeem's best Finals performance

[Banzai]

Some obsessed people In this forum tbh.

[Giuseppe]

Only pussies & assholes play the officiating card.

[midnightpulp]

PER (Hollinger's formula)

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3



Kobe has a higher career PER than Larry Bird in the Regular Season and Playoffs
Kobe has a higher Peak PER in the Regular Season and Playoffs than Magic Johnson and Larry Bird

PER's weakness is it undervalues assists, which is why Bird and Magic have slightly lower PERs. Furthermore, Bird's last couple of years when he was clearly past his prime brought down his overall score.

And who cares about "peak playoff PER?" Yao Ming has a higher peak playoff PER than Kobe Bryant. A player could easily pad that stat in a 4 game sweep in which he lost. But yes, Kobe's '09 run where he posted that number was indeed one of the all-time great playoff seasons. No arguments there.

[Deuce Bigalow]

PER's weakness is it undervalues assists, which is why Bird and Magic have slightly lower PERs. Furthermore, Bird's last couple of years when he was clearly past his prime brought down his overall score.

And who cares about "peak playoff PER?" Yao Ming has a higher peak playoff PER than Kobe Bryant. A player could easily pad that stat in a 4 game sweep in which he lost. But yes, Kobe's '09 run where he posted that number was indeed one of the all-time great playoff seasons. No arguments there.

I already told you, their Peak PER in the Playoffs came when they won the championship

and does PER value defense? which Kobe was clearly better than Magic and Bird

[midnightpulp]

I already told you, their Peak PER in the Playoffs came when they won the championship

And all that proves is that Kobe's peak was higher than Magic's or Bird's in that regard (although if PER revises its formula to grant more weight to assists, which I believe it should, he'll probably be behind those two). Duncan has 2 instances where he posted a higher PER in a championship run than your hero, but we know you'd never concede Duncan is the superior player.

So, what's the point of posting peak PERs?

[HarlemHeat37]

PER is a weak stat, tbh, but if you're going to use it, it must be used by the individual player's ranking in a particular year, as opposed to the actual number, since PER is affected by the results/performances of the other players for that season, as well..

Kobe has two top 3 finishes(both #3), Magic has two top 3 finishes(#2, #3) and Bird has 6 top 3 finishes(including two #1s)..

Magic is especially impressive, since PER is notoriously difficult on PGs..

Bird was clearly superior to both, from a PER perspective..

[Giuseppe]

Poor Midst, got his nose rubbed in his do-do.

tee, hee.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And all that proves is that Kobe's peak was higher than Magic's or Bird's in that regard (although if PER revises its formula to grant more weight to assists, which I believe it should, he'll probably be behind those two). Duncan has 2 instances where he posted a higher PER in a championship run than your hero, but we know you'd never concede Duncan is the superior player.

So, what's the point of posting peak PERs?

I posted the careers too
nobody takes PER seriously

[midnightpulp]

I posted the careers too
nobody takes PER seriously

Who are they?

Oh, I know. Kobe fans

[Koolaid_Man]

Lakers played a ty Raptors team. Should have had a comfortable win. Kobe re-enters in the fourth quarter and misses like 6 shots in a row. Raptors take a lead. Kobe makes a couple of shots and gets an assist to help take the game. Refs made a questionable foul call. Lakers win. Some people on the board get a little sore in the bottom, start threads about it. You know, that old chestnut.

Also ignores the PG defense on Jose Calderon who dropped 30 points on 18 shots. Kobe is to blame for his share of deficiencies and negative play. But it's always the focus whereas there are bigger issues with the Lakers that are primary reasons why they aren't much better than they have been. The lack of production at the PG and SF spots and the lack of an even average bench are the two main and glaring holes for the Lakers. Sure, Kobe is a selfish ballhog. He's not the only problem. And in reality, he's not even among the biggest problems.

as long as you can agree that MJ was an even bigger selfish ball hog then you have some legitimacy....if not continue to waste your breathe

[Koolaid_Man]

I posted the careers too
nobody takes PER seriously

wrong...those who are on the losing end of 5>4 do

[DPG21920]

Lakers played a ty Raptors team. Should have had a comfortable win. Kobe re-enters in the fourth quarter and misses like 6 shots in a row. Raptors take a lead. Kobe makes a couple of shots and gets an assist to help take the game. Refs made a questionable foul call. Lakers win. Some people on the board get a little sore in the bottom, start threads about it. You know, that old chestnut.

Also ignores the PG defense on Jose Calderon who dropped 30 points on 18 shots. Kobe is to blame for his share of deficiencies and negative play. But it's always the focus whereas there are bigger issues with the Lakers that are primary reasons why they aren't much better than they have been. The lack of production at the PG and SF spots and the lack of an even average bench are the two main and glaring holes for the Lakers. Sure, Kobe is a selfish ballhog. He's not the only problem. And in reality, he's not even among the biggest problems.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Who are they?

Oh, I know. Kobe fans

do u ever hear any player, coach, gm, ect mention it?

Lebron had higher per than kobe in 2010, way higher, but tell me what did alvin gentry say in the playoffs?
did he say lebron is better than kobe because of >per? no lol
he said kobe is the best player in the leageu, it's not even close...kobe homer?

[HarlemHeat37]

For the playoffs..

Bird was #1 for the 1984 le, #4 for the 1986 le, and #4 for the 1981 le..

Magic was #4 for the 1980 le, #2 in 1982, #2 in 1987, and #5 in 1988..

Kobe was #4 in 2001, #5 in 2009 and #4 in 2010..

[midnightpulp]

PER is a weak stat, tbh, but if you're going to use it, it must be used by the individual player's ranking in a particular year, as opposed to the actual number, since PER is affected by the results/performances of the other players for that season, as well..

Kobe has two top 3 finishes(both #3), Magic has two top 3 finishes(#2, #3) and Bird has 6 top 3 finishes(including two #1s)..

Magic is especially impressive, since PER is notoriously difficult on PGs..

Bird was clearly superior to both, from a PER perspective..

I don't know about it being weak. While there's always outliers (David Robinson for one), a high PER has a strong correlation to playoff success, and most of the players who make the top ten lists are typically top ten all time in regular season and playoff PER. Even before they used PER, they often unknowingly awarded the MVP to the player who indeed would have a top 3 PER for that year.

[TheMACHINE]

What an awesome game winner.

Kobe is ing GOAT es.

Kobe is the best Laker ever, the Spurs killer. Best recognize.

Jordan Who?

[Giuseppe]

What an awesome game winner.

Kobe is ing GOAT es.

Kobe is the best Laker ever, the Spurs killer. Best recognize.

Jordan Who?

Yep, that one broke a lot a asses.