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Another case of measuring an individual's success based on team accomplishments. Only the dumbest of the dumb would go that route as the primary argument. And it seems like there are a lot of dumb people.
Both Duncan and Kobe are in Bird and Magic's class. Magic for as great as he was had some of the most insane talent around him in history.. Russell had the best team of his era by far as well.. Kareem is a cut above and MJ is MJ.. Duncan is the best ever to play his position. You have an all time starting five he is in at PF..
Another case of measuring an individual's success based on team accomplishments. Only the dumbest of the dumb would go that route as the primary argument. And it seems like there are a lot of dumb people.
I love this topic. Kobe vs. Tim, without a doubt the two best players of the previous 10+ years.
How do you define "best"? Is it individual skills such as ability to score, defend, rebound, steal, block, pass and their physical ability that defines this? Kobe wins scoring, but also shoots more. Duncan wins rebounding. Kobe wins steals but Duncan wins blocks. Kobe wins assist and I believe its a wash with physical ability.
How much does leadership skills, bball iq, ability to make teammates better weigh into this? Kobe is more vocal but Duncan leads by example. Both have a high bball IQ and I would give an edge to Duncan making teammates better. Kobe's version of making teammates better is not giving them a chance to fail by not giving them the ball. I exaggerate but he is known for having a lot of 1 on 1 possessions.
What about regular season success? Duncan with 13 consecutive seasons with 50+ wins (an NBA record), playoff appearances in every season vs Kobe who missed playoffs in 1 year and had 3 consecutive seasons with less than 50 wins.
Or playoff success? Kobe's playoff record: 137-83 (61%) 7 Finals Appearance, 5 championships vs Tim Duncan 115-69 (60%) 4 Finals Appearance, 4 Championships
And what about hardware? Tim Duncan: 4 Rings, 3 NBA finals MVP, 2 Regular Season MVPs vs Kobe Bryant: 5 Rings, 2 NBA finals MVP's, 1 Regular Season MVP.
To me its close, but I give a very slight edge to Timmy as of right now. I believe he's the best teammate anybody could ever have. Unselfish but always knows when its his time to take over.
Tim Duncan wins because Kobe is a punk-ass . /thread
16 points, 15 assists, 2 blocks and 4 steals in game 7 of the finals is choking?
Two costly turnovers in the final 1:30 is.
lol duncan is player of the decade
so now they change it to generation so kobe has something to look forward too winning...
What Tim's done in San Antonio is much more impressive to me than what Kobe's done in LA.
Have a hard time believing, as great as a talent/player Kobe is, he'd even be in the conversation if the organizations were reversed.
Not only that, imagine how much of a god Duncan would be if he was in L.A.
In Kobe's first 3 rings, Shaq was the number 1 option, so at best it counts for half the value. So it's more of a 3.5 rings accomplishment for Kobe, while TD is a 4 rings guy (only this year, if we win it all -knock on woods- the rings might count half for TD). Jordan 6 rings is never a doubt count for 6, even if we discount them with Pippen's help, at worst it comes to 5, so he's clearly the GOAT, atleast at the SG spot.
Or Boston or New York or Chicago.
It's not just about the talent, even if it has to be all-time great, it's about what that talent allows a team and organization to do.
Give Duncan the payroll, venue, the free-agent draw that is LA, bet 5 looks more like 8.
Kobe might've of got a championship in SA but he could have just as easily wound up as a slightly more successful AI - probably running off a coach or two and leaving for greener pastures in the process.
Killakobe thread
Seriously, if that's where any Laker fan sets the bar, then Kobe's never been remotely clutch.
Has Kobe had a better career then Manu GNob?
And if GNob gets yet another legitimate Championship this year, is there any way Kome can catch him?
Can Kombe catch Pippen since he is now slipping to 3rd best player on his own team?
Legit questions.
Kobme vs Tim Duncan is not.
Comparing players from two different positions is a lesson in futility, to me. Their skill-sets are totally different. Their roles are totally different. So, their impact is totally different.
It's like comparing Justin Verlander and Josh Hamilton. Who is better?
Duncan is already the #1 post Jordan player. Kobe has 5 rings but 3 of them are Shaq's. Kobe has 2 rings as the core player on a championship team. TD has 4.
To be fair, Duncan didn't win a second round game from 2009-2011. Surprised that isn't brought up more by the Kobe apologists.
a. It's easier to bring up championships because those were the Lakers' championship prime
b. The Spurs still won 50 games.
I already feel like Duncan is the best of his generation, though I will admit to being blatantly biased. That said, my number one point was that Kobe was an obvious second fiddle to Shaq for his first three les, while TD has been the obvious number one man on all four of his le teams. If Tim gets number 5 this year that should make it more definitive from an objective standpoint imo.
Also: TD clinched one of his rings with a 21/20/10/8 performance, while Kobe clinched one of his going 6 of 24, so...
Duncan's already easily better than Kobe even with 4 rings vs 5. Duncan was clearly the best player on the Spurs every year of his career until the last two. Kobe was not the best Laker until halfway into his career, and got 3 rings with a superior player leading the way. Therefore, imo, Kobe's 5 rings aren't worth as much as Duncan's 4.
Without even considering that, Duncan also has more accomplishments anyway. More Finals MVPs (Kobe has 2 and only deserves 1 imo), more regular season MVPs (Chris Paul deserved it the year Kobe won his even, lol.), More DESERVED defensive team awards by far. Better leader. Better team player. Won more consistently. Never had media circus around him causing trouble. Didn't attention . etc.
Putting prime Duncan on any team in the NBA right now makes them a lot better than if you put Kobe on any team. I'd argue that Kobe's presence would even make some teams worse, not better. Duncan's game impact is/was far more positive than Kobe's overall impact. So even throwing out awards which favor Duncan anyway, Duncan's the better player imo and it's really not even that close.
Kobe will go down as one of the most overrated players ever. Let's not forget he might end up leading the NBA in FGAs MISSED before he's done. He isn't very far off right now.
Kobe's 4th all time in bricks (regular season) right now, and is just 50 away from 3rd place (Kareem) who took over 6,000 more shots than Kobe so far. Yet only 50 more bricks. After catching Kareem, he's only a couple hundred away from Karl Malone who also shot several thousand more shots than Kobe (4,000 or so), which again speaks about Kobe's inefficiency.
Kobe's only about 1,200 bricks away from the record. He averages nearly 800 bricks per season, so he'll be the all time bricks leader after a couple years. And will still be nowhere near the all time points record when he gets there.
Combine that with being borderline uncoachable, ignoring plays, attacking teammates through the media, demanding Shaq or himself be traded multiple times, not trying on defense half the time until it gets to the point his coach starts to just hide him on the worst player on the floor on D', and his propencity to jack up terrible shots, there's a lot of bad stuff to deal with just to get to the good.
Compare and contrast to Duncan, a player who has practically no negatives, yet also has better overall stats, more achievements aside from 1 less ring, better track record, always in the hunt for les, larger positive impact on game, etc.
Duncan > Kobe easily. Not even close when you factor everything. All Kobe has is a single ring more than Duncan with tons of help from other superstar players and occaisionally NBA interference via biased officiating . . . On a team with a long history of winning pre-Kobe. . .vs Duncan, who bulldogged his way to 4, possibly 5 les on a team that's never won one before he joined up. Kobe's just the more hyped player, not the better one.
Kobe had a prime Shaq by his side winning the three championships. Tim Duncan had great support, but no other superstar was with him. That including more individual accolades (MVPs, Finals MVPs) put Duncan on top!
If organizations were reversed no one bothers comparing Tim to Kobe. They'd be busy trying to compare Tim to Kareem and Wilt.
So if the Spurs win #5 this year does Duncan get credit for that ring, or does Tony Parker get credit for that one?
Of course it is close. Anyone that says it's not is being a homer. Kobe pulled ahead the pastr few years because Duncan appeared to be done. But if Duncan leads this team to a le Duncan pulls even or ahead. Both are great players, legendary. But they will soon be gone ... Durant has passed them both.
Barkley on Dan Patrick show today
Duncan is not a top 10 player all time.
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